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Messages - Dionysios

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Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: The Conspiracy Chapter Notes
« on: April 10, 2019, 05:22:06 AM »
‘Case Closed’ by Gerald Posner strongly and convincingly argues that the Warren Commission was basically correct that a lone gunman killed John F. Kennedy.

In a review of the book when it was published, Stephen Ambrose wrote that the conspiracy theories which this book destroys are always getting more complicated and wilder with no end in sight.

My thought is that is also actually a good description of theoretical science. Look at Newtonian heliocentrism which is already convoluted, but when somebody like Michelson and Morley poke a hole in it as they did with their 1885 experiment the correct action would be to simply acknowledge that heliocentric astronomy ever since Copernicus is wrong and should be discarded, but the lie is supported by fabricating an ever more complex web of lies to explain it away which is what Einstein did.

Gerald Posner also wrote a book entitled ‘Killing the Dream’ arguing that Martin Luther King, Jr was killed by a lone racist whom the court rightly found guilty and sentenced to life in prison.

9/11 is often compared to Pearl Harbor, and the conspiracy theory most often voiced is that Roosevelt allegedly knew of Japanese attack in advance and let it happen to get the US in the war. This has been ably refuted by the books of Gordon Prange who is rightly widely regarded as the greatest authority on that topic. Also, Henry Clausen was a US Army Major at the time given authority by the Secretary of War to question and investigate all military personnel including generals and admirals with regard to Pearl Harbor. Not even Eisenhower and Marshall were exempt. He publicized this in a book later which quashed all these anti-Roosevelt conspiracy theories. He discovered that the military personnel tended to be a major source of such theories and sentiments. Awesome book.

On that note, it seems to me that conspiracy theory seems instrinsically to be a right wing phenomenon. I’m no fan of Trump by any means, but the  current conspiracy theories about Russia are obviously rubbish and generally given credit by staunch opponents of Trump just like staunch opponents of Bush gave credit to 9/11 inside job theories.

This indicates to me a degeneration of the American left which is a further casualty of the breakup of the Soviet Union. Such conspiracies about the FBI allegedly having a hand in the death of MLK were an earlier unfounded conspiracy theory believed in by many leftists including even Noam Chomsky. Russia Gate is a progression of this paranoia.

Among others, the mild mannered British sceptic Michael Shermer is knowledgeable about holocaust revisionism and has both debated holocaust revisionists and written a fine book refuting them.

Professor Richard Hofstadter wrote a classic book about conspiracy theory back in the 1960’s entitled ‘The Paranoid Style in American Politics’.

Ancient flat earthism was devoid of conspiracy theory to the best of my knowledge. It seems to put an unfortunate American stamp upon it.

I want to say that I’m not saying that science and media are not corrupt as they very much are, but we should avoid becoming obsessed or paranoid about it all if we want our assessment and criticism to be clear minded, keen, and of good quality.

Earth Not a Globe Workshop / Re: The Conspiracy Chapter Notes
« on: April 10, 2019, 04:42:54 AM »
Concerning conspiracy theory:

I have a suggestion concerning conspiracy which is that it is usually false, wastes our energy, and gives us a bad reputation.

I think taking the time to hear both sides of an issue before settling on a conclusion is objective and virtuous.

For example, for those inclined to think the 9/11 2001 terror incidents were an inside job this would include objectively and thoroughly learning Popular Mechanics debunking of the conspiracy arguments before deciding whether or not it really is a conspiracy. Thus having learned the best arguments of both sides will give the final conclusion a lot more authority.

I can say I am no fan of George Bush, but I don’t hate him so bad that I’m willing to believe something bad about him even if it’s not true.

Also worth considering is the relevance such issues have to do with cosmography. I don’t want my precious time and energy wasted.

My take on zeteticism is that it is the opposite of theoretical science. Well, conspiracy theory seems to me to be theoretical version of history and therefore quite inappropriate for a zetetic. As the saying goes “Where is your evidence?”

I have actually had a side project the past couple of years collecting anti-conspiracy books covering the past 200 years or so. This has been rewarding in that it has greatly simplified history and my understanding of it because in all of these instances it was needlessly complicated.

I’ll briefly mention some of the major ones.

Earlier I’ve had two books published in the 1790’s arguing that the Illuminati brought about the French Revolution. These two books are ‘Proofs of a Conspiracy’ by John Robison (and Englishman) and ‘Memoirs Illustrating the History of Jacobinism’ by Augustin Barruel, a French Jesuit.

My first thought in answer to these two books and their admirers is that the French Revolution was a good thing. I’m glad it happened. However, these books and their thesis were actually marvellously refuted in an 1801 book by Jean Mounier. The Illuminati died back in 1786 when the Bavarian state outlawed and crushed it. It lasted 10 years. And books about Masonic conspiracy indicate more about their authors than anything about masons.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: December 09, 2018, 05:45:18 AM »
I could mention the idea to a few of the speakers and friends most likely to be sympathetic.  I’ll also mention if I come upon other avenues which is entirely possible.

Just a thought is I’d say that their opposition to the “flat earth society” does share some common ground with why you guys departed from Daniel Shenton’s website in the first place which their movement followed after 3 to 4 years. In other words, there is some common ground there which could be exploited in facilitating reconciliation. As far as the universal accelerator goes, I don’t think there is any getting around that because it’s a genuine disagreement.

As far as content of a future presentation to that community, I could suggest emphasis on what drives success knowing the audience. Of course, never to hide what one believes, but I think any significant emphasis upon the universal accelerator to that particular audience would take off like a lead balloon. That would scuttle it rather than facilitate it. I’d say a mutually respectful agree to disagree would have to reign for that aspect of it for the reconcilement to occur.

Among other things, a much more thorough (and long standing) familiarity with ‘Earth Not a Globe’ and other flat earth literature than an audience who came into it through YouTube videos of Mark Sargent, Eric Dubay, and ODD is what brought the whole idea to mind. I’m sure there is plenty you could educate them about.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: December 06, 2018, 02:02:18 AM »
FYI, there will also be a California flat earth conference in Yorba Linda (L.A. area) in late February 2019 (around the corner).

Depending on the price of admission, I'll go to that

Judging by the lineup of speakers, the Yorba Linda, CA conference will be bible heavy compared to the big one in Denver which had a more even distribution.  Especially, Jeran Campanella from California (Bay area) and David Weiss of NYC (both agnostic) were in Denver but will be absent from this one. Just FYI.

Yorba Linda, CA FE Conference
Speaker Roster

Flat Earth Projects / Re: Additions to the Library
« on: December 06, 2018, 01:41:51 AM »
‘Joshua’s Long Day & the Dial of Ahaz’ (1890)
By Charles Totten

Advocating spherical geocentrism, it has a wealth of useful information. It contrasts very favourably when compared with Robert Sungenis’s work ‘Galileo Was Wrong’ because Totten does not believe all the pseudoscientific rubbish that Sungenis naively bought into when getting his degrees and which now plague his books.

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Antikythera mechanism
« on: December 05, 2018, 11:55:36 PM »
Once I understood what the antikythera mechanism is all about, I recalled this scene from the ‘Dark Crystal’:

Science & Alternative Science / Antikythera mechanism
« on: December 05, 2018, 11:53:58 PM »
This documentary supersedes both other docs and other speakers about this ancient astronomical device because the British curator, researcher, and instrument maker Michael Wright is the key speaker.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: December 05, 2018, 11:44:45 PM »
Thank you, Dionysios. Perhaps I will go to next year's.

Next year’s major USA conference will be in Dallas. The Canadian FE 2019 conference will be in Toronto. FYI, there will also be a California flat earth conference in Yorba Linda (L.A. area) in late February 2019 (around the corner).

I’ve got an idea. Tom, I have to say if it becomes feasible even if it means the 2020 conference, then you should be a speaker - especially on Rowbotham and on anything else you saw fit. You’ve got the quality of information & Robbie Davidson has the platform. If that connection was made, then we all benefit.

As far as that goes, I wouldn’t mind speaking myself about Cosmas Indicopleustes. I plan to do a follow-up tape recorded lecture in Oregon focusing on Cosmas Indicopleustes in two parts:
1) history of ancient flat earth belief
2) the ancient Christian model characteristics and their continuance through Middle Ages and contrast with Rowbotham model

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: December 05, 2018, 11:31:11 PM »
Thank you for the recap, Dionysios. That was really interesting to read about.

Much appreciate. There are more worthwhile and interesting aspects I can mention, but I’d first like to mention an idea I’ve got because of its potential.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 24, 2018, 04:41:30 AM »
I wanted to add that by “dumbed down version” a couple of posts above that there are no concepts in Rowbotham’s book which are absent in that of Indicopleustes except only for those needed to confute the stupidity which has arisen during the intervening centuries.

Concepts such as the daily orbit of sun, moon, and stars around the arctic north expanding and contracting with the seasons and others are all to be found in the ancient Christian model, but there are important aspects of the ancient Christian model which are absent in Rowbotham’s book.

This interview I gave was not exhaustive, but I’d like to mention a difference I noticed.

 While both Sam Rowbotham and Cosmas Indicopleustes respect scripture, it is not as integral to Rowbotham’s argument as it is with Cosmas who constantly mentions scriptural passages to make his points throughout the book. By contrast, Rowbotham saves most of his scriptural quotations for a special chapter towards the end of the book. This difference is manifested in their two flat earth models. Cosmas’s model is more biblical than Rowbotham’s which is a bit more simplistic. The chief differences in their two models stem mainly from scriptural points that perhaps Rowbotham overlooked or in any case omitted. They do not disagree on science with the possible exception of the size of the sun which is perhaps the only instance in which Rowbotham outshines Cosmas who was evidently a closer student of the bible than Rowbotham or dwelt in the company of such. Perhaps Rowbotham focused a bit more upon scientific measurements.

That said, I would fault Rowbotham in this field I’m only one instance that I can currently think of: when the moon (or sun) appears larger than usual, Rowbotham argues that this is due to refraction which it seems to me is essentially the same argument his opponents use to explain away the clear visibility of objects at an impossible distance over an alleged curve. It seems to me that it is unnecessary for Rowbotham to use such reasoning. It seems to me the real reason the sun or moon appear larger than usual is simply because they are actually physically closer to the observer on such occasions.

At any rate, I didn’t mean to diminish the utility of Rowbotham and his book which are credits to the flat earth movement.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 24, 2018, 04:09:31 AM »
Earlier this year I bought a hard bound facsimile reprint of the 1897 edition of the ‘Christian Topography’ by Cosmas Indicopleustes published by the Hakluyt Society which is likely the best way to have it in English.

During the conference I discovered an awesome full colour book which collected the drawings from the three chief manuscripts of this book. I immediately decided to order it the next day, but I noticed a few hours later that Dave Marsh made a post publicising this very same book which only had two copies still available on amazon. I told him that same night over a beer that he endangered my chances of obtaining the book!

Actually only one copy sold that night, and I did order it. It was in my mailbox when I returned from the conference.

‘The World of Kosmas’
By Maja Kominko

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 24, 2018, 03:55:13 AM »
I gave Nathan Thompson an approximately 15 minute interview concerning how I personally came into Flat Earth. Apologise that his phone died before I got much into the internet era and these forums. FYI, although not captured on camera which focused upon myself, Robbie Davidson was sitting silently on the other side of Nathan throughout this interview including the part where I described Rowbotham and the modern flat earth movement he founded as the dumbed down version of Cosmas Indicopleustes. This interview took place the first night of the conference late at night (well past midnight) after the debate.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 24, 2018, 03:49:01 AM »
After the debate between the Protestant flat earther Rob Skiba and the catholic geocentrist Robert Sungenis, I thanked Rob Skiba for mentioning Saint Jerome of Bethlehem’s commentary on Isaiah which I actually ordered through amazon before he had even finished that segment. I later discovered that commentary on the oft contested passage in Isaiah 40:22 did not say what Skiba claimed during the debate (that Jerome therein rejected the globe theory) Jerome objectively stated how both sides used the passage.

Skiba in person actually responded to my appreciation by saying that Jerome believed the earth is a globe (which is opposite of what he said in the debate). I angrily responded stating that I have a whole flat earth cosmography book written by Saint Jerome which was translated from Latin to English and published within the past decade. I then asked where he gets his information, and he sheepishly responded that he relied upon Robert Sungenis’s book ‘Flat Earth, Flat Wrong’.

For this and several other things he said, Rob Skiba was for me the biggest disappointment of the conference - more than Logan Paul.

That said, the conference was a blast. From several conversations and from what I knew of him already, I would say Bob Knodel is perhaps the most competent of the speakers. Bob Knodel’s colleague Jeran Campanella gave me a ride to the billboard meetup. I also thought all of his output was great.  Dave Marsh from the UK and Rich Hopkins gave notably outstanding presentations on the moon.

Had great times and conversations with all of them. Paul on the Plane is such a down to earth guy. Bought Patricia Steere a drink (non-alcoholic) and had a couple of good conversations. Had a conversation with Darryle Marble about a video he did with Australians and Britons simultaneously in daylight while Russia was in nighttime which seems to me to confirm the ancient Christian view of the elevated height of the arctic ice making a shadow from the sun over Rowbotham’s diagram’s of diminishing sunlight lucidity because it was bright enough to reach Britain and Australia simultaneously.

I actually learned some useful history from the spherical geocentrist Robert Sungenis who quoted a book entitled ‘Mesopotamian Cosmic Geography’ by Wayne Horowitz of Hebrew University.

The book surveys all the known cosmographies of ancient Babylon and Assyria. While the most ancient ones are flat earth, the author says the vast majority throughout their history were global earth even in pre-Christian times. The book purports to give original language passages side-by-side with English language translations.

While Rob Skiba ignorantly dismissed this evidence out of hand sight unseen, it caught my attention especially because I remember Cosmas Indicopleustes stating that the Greeks got their spherical ideas from the Babylonians. To a Christian it makes utter sense as Babylon is derided in scripture as a source of error.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 08, 2018, 04:54:29 PM »
I've been avoiding these conferences for a number of reasons, mostly the profit-motivation, the Biblical literalism, and the small matter of them repeatedly calling me a government agent (I might be confrontational, but I don't really want to deal with that). Of course, all publicity is good publicity, so I wish them all the best nonetheless.

Last time they held one of these I was contacted by a journalist writing for the Canadian Geographic. When I realised that he was writing a hit-piece and withdrew consent, he tried blackmailing me by saying he'll write super-mean stuff about the society if I don't comply. Strangely, no article was published in the end - I wonder why.

I’d say that hostile media is the common enemy of both. What that incident brings to my mind is finding a civil rights commission with jurisdiction, perhaps contacting his employer, and even his employer’s advertisers. Hit them where it hurts. Research and hit ‘em hard.

As to that growing strata of the flat earth community, I would say it’s perhaps similar to these forums in one sense which is that their leadership can be more mature than some of the rank and file - just like on these forums. I’ve seen a couple of I’ll advised comments against wasting time with Sungenis, but Rob Skiba told event organiser Robbie Davidson earlier this week that he’d like to eat with him the night before they spar.

For what it’s worth, I’ll try to make the leadership’s understanding of the history of these forums a bit more nuanced.

As far as the preponderance of biblical literalists in that crowd (which is far from complete vis a vis agnostics like Jeran is one of them), I cannot help. It seems that niche is theirs in the same way these many on these forums have an inclination towards agnosticism.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 05, 2018, 05:23:01 AM »
I know two of the presenters already. I drove up to Seattle in 2017 and met both Darryle Marble and Mark Sargent at my first meetup. I’ve met Darryle a few times since and corresponded with Mark, but this conference will be my first time meeting the others.

I have to say. Although they’ve done well, their leaders have been flat earth believers only three and a half or four years. 

Even Robert Sungenis the spherical geocentrist said he began believing that way in 2003. I first read Rowbotham’s book and believed in 1996, but I first believed in geocentrism like Sungenis back in 1994. I got him by a decade.

I’ve still got a letter that Robert Schadewald sent to me back in 1997. Maybe I should dig it up and bring it along.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 05, 2018, 05:03:35 AM »
I am not going. However, make sure to inform them that The Flat Earth Society is not a "government-run shill operation".

I state the difference between this and Daniel’s forum when the subject arises and that the online libraries on both are fine sources of information.

Actually, that last part is well worth mentioning to folks there looking for sources of info. I used to think Daniel’s forum had the best library, but Tom Bishop has supplemented so much material here that both are worth knowing.

Significantly, I perceive their collective hostility to the “flat earth society” is based on a lot of the same causes which motivated this forum’s separation from Daniel’s old forum in the first place. I don’t recall exactly which year this forum began, but if memory serves it was fairly shortly (a year or two) before their YouTube movement took off in 2014.

If you’re suggesting that they get a bit too tied up in conspiracy theory, then I would agree.

Incidentally, Robert Sungenis (Galileo Was Wrong) will debate a flat earther at the event.

Flat Earth Community / Re: FE Conference Denver
« on: November 05, 2018, 04:56:17 AM »
I'm interested that there are sessions called:

Biblical Cosmology
The topic: Defending your cosmological worldview from the Bible: What do the Scriptures have to say about the Earth and its place in the cosmos?
14+ Ways the Bible Says Flat Earth
Where Are We? Earth According to the Bible
Flat Earth & The Bible Panel Q&A

If you have an interest then you should sign up and go to them. Alternatively, there is an online streaming pass which is of a cheaper cost.

Robbie Davidson, the organiser, says 80% will be viewable on YouTube for free - apparently live. In any case, the one he put on a year ago in Raleigh, NC was viewable online for free shortly after the conference.   

Flat Earth Community / FE Conference Denver
« on: November 02, 2018, 01:46:19 AM »
Is anyone here going to this?
I bought a VIP ticket early in the year and looking forward to it.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: FES Book Club
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:47:55 AM »
Just got ‘Rock and Sand’ by Josiah Trenham. I haven’t read it yet, but this interview of him about the book is the best presentation I’ve ever heard about Protestantism from the Orthodox Christian perspective. Although Orthodox himself, the interviewer asks good tough questions like a well informed Protestant might.

Arts & Entertainment / Re: Just Watched
« on: August 07, 2018, 03:37:12 AM »
‘The Unknown War’ (1978)
Produced in the USSR
Narrated by Burt Lancaster

Significantly devoid of typical American anti-communism, a made for American tv documentary in 20 informative episodes of 47 minutes each about every major aspect of the Soviet Union in World War II.

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