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Messages - edby

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1
... and, to get back to flight-related stuff, today's flight BAW6B, arrival LHR 13:35 on Friday 31st, is currently over open ocean, South of Greenland.
I shall keep an eye out for it as it comes in.

And to get right back to the OP, are such flights hoaxes? We have the data from FR24. The fact that I can see the planes coming in to LHR from my window, and that I can identify both the airline and the plane type (but not the flight number) suggest that the data is authentic. Further evidence could be obtained from the departure and arrival boards online.

Then there is the secondary question of whether we can infer flight distance from flight time, which requires assumptions about how fast planes fly.

We would then have to look for evidence including wind speed. See e.g. the wiki https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis.

One experiment would be to find flights on the same route but travelling in opposite directions. If high wind speeds were causing discrepancies, then the effect should be equal and opposite.

Perhaps the subject for another thread.


2
Right. But if that's how you're doing it you understand that degrees of latitude can only be a consistent distance apart using those observations if the earth is a globe? If it's flat then every degree south will get further and further apart.
Depends on the FE model you are using. On the AE map, I agree. There are other maps, according to the wiki.

[EDIT]Sorry, re-read your post. You are talking about distance between latitudes, yes? I agree.

3
Latitude and longitude have no meaning on a Flat Earth. They are measured in degrees of angle; angular displacement between two straight-line vectors which meet at a point, with the angle being at that point.

Where do you define this point on a Flat Earth?
The coordinates are perfectly meaningful on a Flat Earth. We observe the altitude (in degrees) of polaris (or sigma octans) to find latitude, and the Greenwich time at which the sun is at its zenith (and multiply by 15) to find longitude. That gives us two coordinates, right?

4
I have not seen evidence that Web Mercator (Web-based WGS84 used in Google/Bing Maps) is based on a sphere. Various statements suggest otherwise -  https://wiki.tfes.org/World_Geodetic_System_1984
From the 'Earth is not Round' article quoted: "Latitude and Longitude are useless for measuring distance and area because the unit of length, degrees, is not held constant for longitude, except along parallels -- individual perfectly east-west lines."

Well of course. Latitude and longitude are measures of location, not position. Points on a flat earth would have the same latitude and longitude as on a spherical earth.

The topic here is whether (1) the observations of flight time are a good proxy for flight distance, and (2) whether the distances inferred tell us anything about the shape of the earth.

The maps are flat because surveyors and mappers use plane surveying techniques.

"Geodetic Surveying is that branch of survey which deals with areas so extensive that it is necessary to take into consideration the true shape and dimensions of the earth". https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/abs/10.1080/00050326.1935.10436447

In plane surveying, used for small areas, the shape of the earth is not a consideration because it makes very little difference.

Wikipedia: "Plane and geodetic surveying: Based on the considerations and true shape of the earth, surveying is broadly classified into two types.Plane surveying assumes the earth is flat. Curvature and spheroidal shape of the earth is neglected. In this type of surveying all triangles formed by joining survey lines are considered as plane triangles. It is employed for small survey works where errors due to the earth's shape are too small to matter.In geodetic surveying the curvature of the earth is taken into account while calculating reduced levels, angles, bearings and distances. This type of surveying is usually employed for large survey works. Survey works up to 100 square miles (260 square kilometers ) are treated as plane and beyond that are treated as geodetic. In geodetic surveying necessary corrections are applied to reduced levels, bearings and other observations."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surveying#Plane_and_geodetic_surveying

5
On this 'interactive scale' thing, consider a map that is so large that one mile on the earth's surface = 1 mile on the map's surface. You could lay the whole map on top of the world so that every point on the map would be on top of the corresponding point in the world. But then the scale would not be variable.

There would not be a scale.
Yes there would, it would be 1. But that is not my point. The scale would have to be 1 at every point, in order to preserve the 1:1 mapping from every point in the world to the corresponding point on the map.

Or to make the point in another way. (Suppose) I have a globe in my study, and I make a 1:1 map of it by wrapping a strong sheet around it. Can I then unwrap the sheet and lay it on the flat surface of my desk without tearing or cutting the sheet?

I think iamcpc's claim is that the Bing map with its variable scale can represent a surface which is perfectly flat. Although it's never been quite clear what his claim is.

6
1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?

Yes to 1.

Do you agree that lines of longitude converge at the South Pole?

If you believe that the planet has a south pole then I would like to point out that only one of the flat earth models I have shown on this thread has a south pole.
So on the model which has a South pole, do lines of longitude converge at the South pole?

7
1. Does the planet that you live on have a South Pole?
2. Does the planet that you live on have a great ice wall encompassing the entire planet?

Yes to 1.

Do you agree that lines of longitude converge at the South Pole?

This is why the more modern online maps have an interactive scale which changes depends on where you look and how far in you zoom.
On this 'interactive scale' thing, consider a map that is so large that one mile on the earth's surface = 1 mile on the map's surface. You could lay the whole map on top of the world so that every point on the map would be on top of the corresponding point in the world. But then the scale would not be variable.

If on the other hand this map had a variable scale, there would no longer be a 1:1 correspondence between points on the map, and points in the world. In which case, would the map accurately represent the surface it was intended to represent?

8

Here is a model of the earth in which the earth is represented as a flat plane:
https://www.bing.com/maps

I will call this FE model 1


This model is the same as Google maps and does not represent the earth as a flat plane.

Rather, the model is a picture which is on a flat surface, but which represents something as not a plane.

9
Sorry what models are you talking about?

The two different FE models shown on this thread.
Could you help us out and link to them please. I can't see anything immediately above.

So, we seem to be in agreement that on some days, this flight passes over Greeenland, and others it does not. Agreed?

Where does that leave us?
It leaves us that some days flights follow Great Circle routes, some days they do not.

10
Quite agree that BAW6B (aircraft reg G-ZBKI) did not fly over Greenland on 26/27 July.  I don't think anyone claimed it did. 

Yes they did. They did it here:
[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.
Note the date of my post (24 July).

Quote
Now that I have answered your question, Can you answer mine? What is a flight that we can take in which the path that we fly would support one of the two presented FE models?
Sorry what models are you talking about?

11
It just passed over Fulham - I tracked it over Wales and southern England, then saw it with my own eyes it for nearly a minute using binoculars. Clearly a BA plane, and clearly a Dreamliner.

12
Why would it fly over Brazil? Why the route being different each day would imply it flew over Brazil even once? It doesn't mean it can be anything.
On that point, the 'measure distance' function on Google maps tells us the distance of different routes. Thus for the LA->London route

Over Greenland: 5,429km
Over Newfoundland: 5,568km
Over Florida: 6,547km

Over Brazil, probably much more. The difference between the Greenland and Newfoundland route is about 150km, which does not seem much. Between Greenland and Florida, more than a 1,000km.

 

13
[..]
This really makes me question this website because it appears that the flight path changes after the plane lands. I wonder why that is?
[..]
To be clear, there are two websites. I used flightradar 24, but your website corroborates the information.

Don't know about flight paths changing after landing. Where is your evidence?

14
[EDIT] As I write, check out BAW6B, San Francisco-London, currently over the Hudson Bay and heading directly for Greenland. Using the ‘measure distance’ function on Google maps, the flight appears to be on the great circle route.

[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.



this website shows that it didn't fly over greenland:

https://flightaware.com/live/flight/BAW6B

That very website shows it did fly over Greenland on 24 July, the date of my post.

Checking all the flights on that page suggest a wide variety of routes.

[edit] Also check out KL601 Amsterdam to Los Angeles, currently flying right over Greenland.

Also VIR681B, London to LA.

15
Flat Earth Theory / Re: from Buenos Aires to Melbourne
« on: July 26, 2020, 09:52:26 AM »
That issue is discussed on the wiki, which I link https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis without comment.

Theories include winds, mistakes about flight times.

16
Try flightradar which tracks planes as they fly.  https://www.flightradar24.com/DAL3323/250498fb

Click on any of the planes and it shows you the origin and destination airports, and a line showing the route. You see plenty flying over Greenland.

I can't find it now, but a year ago here I mapped the published average flight times between airports against the expected RE time and expected FE time in an X-Y chart. There was a strong correlation between the expected RE time and average published time. Correlation for FE was poor, particularly for the Southern part of the world, which had planes flying at multiples of speed of sound.

[EDIT] As I write, check out BAW6B, San Francisco-London, currently over the Hudson Bay and heading directly for Greenland. Using the ‘measure distance’ function on Google maps, the flight appears to be on the great circle route.

[EDIT 2] And now, London time 12:28 (BST) BAW6B has neatly crossed the tip of Greenland and most of the North Atlantic, just approaching the coast of Ireland.  Scheduled to arrive at Heathrow 14:05. I live underneath the flight path so I will be able to see it come in.

[EDIT 3] Sadly it landed 35 mins early so I missed it over lunch. I will check some other flights some other day. But in any case, the point of looking out of my window to see the actual plane is simply a Zetetic check to verify that the flight tracking software is not part of the overall conspiracy. If we all accept it can be relied upon, then visual checks not needed. (Of course, you could object that I am part of the conspiracy, which if true would lead you to doubt my assurances that I am not part of a conspiracy, but there is a limit to what we can verify for ourselves. Sometimes you have to accept things on trust).

17
This whole discussion about panoramas is a diversion. The moon tilt illusion observably happens. Surely what is relevant is why it happens and whether its explanation is a point for (or against) FET or RET.
The illusion happens for the same reason that parallel lines in a panorama (an uncorrected panorama, not using the form of correction that Tom refers to) appear to converge. The underlying phenomenon is the same.

18
That is very incorrect. Your link is talking about the 'General Panini Projection'. Panoramas do not all turn all lines into curves as a rule. Most people prefer their straight lines to stay straight.
So we take a panorama of both directions of a railway track. The tracks will not appear to converge in the far distance in each direction? How?

19
Panoramics don't generally turn straight lines into curves, by the way, otherwise the horizon, powerlines, and all elements in panoramics would show this warping. Take a panoramic of the horizon around you and it's generally straight.

Yes they do generally turn straight lines into curves, except for radial lines through the view centre, i.e. the horizon.

http://hugin.sourceforge.net/docs/manual/The_General_Panini_Projection.html

Another example below. Any straight line at eye level will come out as straight. Any parallel line below, such as the tracks, will curve upwards (because parallel lines appear to converge with distance). By the same logic, any parallel line above (the wires) will curve downwards. The horizon is therefore a special case.



20
Flat Earth Projects / Re: The Atlantic Split
« on: July 21, 2020, 08:14:03 AM »
Great map, but a few questions to research. First, in my area of the UK 1 degree of latitude = about 111km, which is easily checked by driving distances.

But lines of latitude expand on the right and the left side of the map above. Does that mean distances are much longer on the East coast of S. America, and the West coast of Africa, than indicated on Google maps? Are the FE researchers in those places who could confirm?

Second, what lies beyond the circular boundary of the map? Is it ocean all the way to the boundary?

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