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Messages - Tim Alphabeaver

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2
Flat Earth Community / Re: I have questions
« on: November 15, 2019, 05:48:29 PM »
Did you just post a quote from j*** bl*** on this forum?
Jack Black? He's a legend mate, back off

3
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 15, 2019, 05:43:32 PM »
I'm under the impression that there are only a few experiments which are actually put forward as evidence for the universal attraction of mass.
I think this is kind of true, but the few experiments that do exist are all pretty consistent so there's no incentive to provide further evidence. Add on to that the fact that there's really no viable alternative and you end up with where we are now: who's going to be interested in doing this experiment?
A professor isn't going to be interested in this - they'd rather do some physics that's new (unless they're a hardcore globie)
A funding body isn't going to be interested in this - it's not new or exciting

It's kind of a sad reality of science, but there's limited money and physicists that would rather be doing something interesting. The Scientific Method is a pure and perfect ideal that's implemented by primates.

4
Technology & Information / Re: Twitch Pricing
« on: November 15, 2019, 05:32:22 PM »
[...]

And of course something I forgot to mention - a shoutout from an Important Person live on air isn't something you can put a price tag on.

5
Technology & Information / Re: Twitch Pricing
« on: November 15, 2019, 05:31:04 PM »
You're not paying for a service, you're paying to support a streamer.

/thread
Read the OP. You are not making a donation, you are subbing ... ie giving half to Twitch. No one is 'supporting' Twitch. It doesn't need support. It has Amazon bankrolling it.

Your argument makes no sense.
me: it's a donation
you: amazon takes half of it

???
So because there's a third party taking a cut it's no longer a donation? wut

I give money to a twitch streamer for the priceless feeling of giving money to something that I think is a good cause (i.e. a donation). The fact that amazon gets half of the donation is entirely opaque and not something often considered by subbers. The dumb emotes and stuff are icing on the cake.

"why not just donate"
What so I'm going to like go to another website, find their page, make an account, verify my email, enter my card details... that's already too much effort - I've already clicked on the twitch subscribe button. You're undervaluing convenience.

6
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 14, 2019, 07:57:40 PM »
Within this 300 year time interval, we again have the huge problem of the sensitive dependence on initial conditions.
I think you've taken a very roundabout route to reach the same conclusion that I did in my first few posts in this thread: the universe is chaotic.

7
Here is the earth trailing orbit of the exoplanet discovering Kepler satellite  - 66,600 mph . How ?https://www.airspacemag.com/daily-planet/keplers-unusual-orbit-54411507/
If you launch any satellite out of Earth's sphere of influence, it will go into basically this orbit. What do you expect that a satellite would do?

8
Flat Earth Theory / Re: FE Gravity
« on: November 14, 2019, 07:41:35 PM »
in order to accelerate constantly in a direction we would need not only a constant energy source but an INCREASING energy source as required energy in order to keep accelerating would eventually tend towards infinity.
Someone needs to take another look at their 'Introduction to Relativity' notes :)

9
Technology & Information / Re: Twitch Pricing
« on: November 14, 2019, 07:37:36 PM »
You're not paying for a service, you're paying to support a streamer.

/thread

10
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 09, 2019, 03:44:23 AM »
[...]
Well after some to-and-froing it seems like we actually agree on this one!

11
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Size/distance of Sun
« on: November 09, 2019, 03:39:27 AM »
Stokes' theorem applied to an interferometer whose center of rotation coincides with its geometrical center:

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2023979#msg2023979

Formula:



Stokes' theorem applied to an interferometer whose center of rotation no longer coincides with its geometrical center (MGX, RLGs):

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=30499.msg2208660#msg2208660

Formula:



I'm glad we agree

12
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 07, 2019, 11:11:24 PM »
I don't understand. Who was talking about analytical solutions? Those are numerical solutions that I linked you to:

Quote
https://web.archive.org/save/https://academic.oup.com/pasj/article/70/4/64/4999993

Over a thousand new periodic orbits of a planar three-body system with unequal masses  -- “ Here, we report 1349 new families of planar periodic orbits of the triple system where two bodies have the same mass and the other has a different mass.

Further down, in the section "Numerical searching for periodic orbits" we verify that these are numerical simulations: -- “ As mentioned by Li and Liao (2017), many periodic orbits might be lost by means of traditional algorithms in double precision. Thus, we further integrate the equations of motion by means of a "clean numerical simulation"

Now, where can we find examples of numerical three body problem solutions with bodies of different masses?

Sandokhan, do you know where we can find them?

You could try looking up the thing I told you to look up, NASA's Horizons catalogue.
https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_doc
Searching this document for "integrate":
"comets and asteroids numerically integrated by Horizons."
"Comets and asteroids are numerically integrated on demand over a maximum interval of A.D. 1600 to A.D. 2500"
"To construct an SPK file for a comet or asteroid, Horizons retrieves the latest orbit solution and numerically integrates the object's trajectory over a user-specified time span less than 200 years."
"and are then numerically integrated on-demand by Horizons to other times of interest"

Need I go on?

From your link:

Quote
Comet and asteroid ephemerides are integrated from initial conditions called "osculating elements". These describe the 3-dimensional position and velocity of the body at a specific time. The integrator starts with this state and takes small time steps, summing the perturbing forces at each step before taking another step. A variable order, variable step-size integrator is used to control error growth. In this way, the gravitational attraction of other major solar system bodies on the target body trajectory is taken into account.

Summing of perturbing forces?

This sounds like what Dr. Gopi Krishna Vijaya is explaining in his Replacing the Foundations of Astronomy paper:

https://reciprocalsystem.org/PDFa/Replacing%20the%20Foundations%20of%20Astronomy%20(Vijaya,%20Gopi%20Krishna).pdf

Quote
Epicycles Once More

Following the Newtonian era, in the 18th century there were a series of mathematicians – Bernoulli, Clairaut, Euler, D’Alembert, Lagrange, Laplace, Leverrier – who basically picked up where Newton left off and ran with it. There were no descendants to the wholistic viewpoints of Tycho and Kepler, but only those who made several improvements of a mathematical nature to Newtonian theory. Calculus became a powerful tool in calculating the effects of gravitation of all the planets upon each other, due to their assumed masses. The motion of the nearest neighbor – the Moon – was a surprisingly hard nut to crack even for Newton, and several new mathematical techniques had to be invented just to tackle that.

In the process, a new form of theory became popular: Perturbation theory. In this approach, a small approximate deviation from Newton's law is assumed, based on empirical data, and then a rigorous calculation of differential equation is used to nail down the actual value of the deviation. It does not take much to recognize that this was simply the approach taken before Kepler by Copernicus and others for over a thousand years – adding epicycles to make the observations fit. It is the same concept, but now dressed up in gravitational disguise:



In other words, the entire thought process took several steps backwards, to redo the same process as the Ptolemaic - Copernican epicycle theory, only with different variables. The more logical way of approach would have been to redirect the focus of the improved mathematical techniques to the assumptions in Newton’s theory, but instead the same equations were re-derived with calculus, without examining the assumptions. Hence any modern day textbook gives the same derivation for circular and elliptical motion that Newton first derived in his Principia. The equivalence of the epicycle theory and gravitational theory has not been realized, and any new discovery that fits in with the mathematical framework of Newtonian gravity is lauded as a “triumph of the theory of gravitation.” In reality, it is simply the triumph of fitting curves to the data or minor linear extrapolations – something that had already been done at least since 2nd century AD. Yet the situation is conceptually identical.

~

The Dead End

In the late 19th century, one of the French mathematicians – Henri Poincaré – had already discovered that many of the terms being used in the “perturbation” series by mathematicians like Laplace and Lagrange were becoming infinite for long periods of time, making the system unstable. In simple words, the solutions ‘blow up’ fairly quickly. He also showed that the general problem of 3 mutually gravitating bodies was insoluble through any mathematical analysis! Many physicists and mathematicians built up modern “Chaos theory” based on these ideas, to show simply that one cannot calculate the movements of the planets accurately. Thus began the field of non-linear dynamics.

In the middle of the 20th century, with computers entering the field, the mathematicians pretty much gave up on calculating the orbits by themselves and programmed the computer to do it, even though it was mathematically shown that these orbits were incalculable. They had to be satisfied with approximations or numerical methods (or “brute force” methods.) The result of it all was that after 300 years, Newtonian/Einsteinian thought lands in the same spot that Kepler ended: the orbits point to a living or chaotic system. Only now, there is the additional baggage of all the wrong concepts introduced with regard to “inverse-square law”, “gravitational attraction”, “gravitational mass” and “curved space-time” along with uncountable number of minor assumptions. In this process, an enormous amount of human effort was put to derive thousands of terms in equations over centuries. The entire enterprise has been a wild goose chase

Just because the reference that I gave you has the word "peturb" in doesn't mean it's not a numerical integration. That same paragraph also explicitly states they use numerical integration.
What exactly is your point here? I've given you the numerical solution to the n-body problem that you asked for, and you just dismissed it out of hand for seemingly no reason. If you don't want a discussion, don't bother replying.

Just re-read all of BillO's posts - he seems to know exactly what he's talking about.

13
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Size/distance of Sun
« on: November 07, 2019, 11:07:58 PM »
You are witnessing the damage done by Albert Michelson when he claimed that the formula published in 1925 was actually describing the Sagnac effect.

To this very day, the best physicists have been unable to realize that the formula which features the area is the Coriolis effect formula.

However, in the past twenty years, for the first time, the topological considerations of the Sagnac interferometer have been taken into account.

According to Stokes' rule can an integration of angular velocity Ω over an area A be substituted by an integration of tangential component of translational velocity v along the closed line of length L limiting the given area.

Thus, there will always be two formulas for any Sagnac interferometer.

Imagine this: the physicists at Cambridge University are confusing the Coriolis effect with the Sagnac effect, even though they describe very different physical situations.

The Sagnac effect is distributed along a line and not over an area.

Yet, Michelson, most likely intentionally, took advantage of the state of affairs in light interferometry at the beginning of the 20th century, and infused into mainstream science a huge misrepresentation.

Stokes' theorem gives you two equations for the same thing. Your two integrals are by definition the same thing if you're using Stokes' theorem.

14
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 06, 2019, 10:11:54 PM »
Those are numerical simulations that I quoted.
Your opening line was "The availiable solutions for the Three Body Problem are very limited..." and then you go on to say "Where are the solutions with bodies of different masses?"

There are limited analytic solutions to the three-body problem. There are no general analytic solutions to the three-body problem with arbitrary masses.

I'm talking about numerical solutions, not analytic solutions. Whether there is an analytic solution to the three-body problem is entirely irrelevant - what matters is the thing we're actually discussing, which is the accuracy of the numerical solution.

P.S. do you have any coding experience? You can just open python or matlab etc. yourself and use pre-made and easy to use numerical integration algorithms, chuck in initial conditions for e.x. the solar system and see what happens.

15
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 06, 2019, 10:05:56 PM »
Those are numerical simulations that I quoted.

Quote
Further down, in the section "Numerical searching for periodic orbits" we verify that these are numerical simulations: -- “ As mentioned by Li and Liao (2017), many periodic orbits might be lost by means of traditional algorithms in double precision. Thus, we further integrate the equations of motion by means of a “clean numerical simulation" ”

Again, where can we find numerical simulations with different masses other than your statement that they exist?

Your reference to the NASA models are questionable, as they are using perturbation methods.
You could try looking up the thing I told you to look up, NASA's Horizons catalogue.
https://ssd.jpl.nasa.gov/?horizons_doc
Searching this document for "integrate":
"comets and asteroids numerically integrated by Horizons."
"Comets and asteroids are numerically integrated on demand over a maximum interval of A.D. 1600 to A.D. 2500"
"To construct an SPK file for a comet or asteroid, Horizons retrieves the latest orbit solution and numerically integrates the object's trajectory over a user-specified time span less than 200 years."
"and are then numerically integrated on-demand by Horizons to other times of interest"

Need I go on?

16
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Size/distance of Sun
« on: November 06, 2019, 10:01:15 PM »
[...]
This paper just says they are the same thing? So is this 'Coriolis force' on a RLG just the same as the Sagnac effec? That's what this paper says #confused

17
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Size/distance of Sun
« on: November 06, 2019, 07:01:34 PM »
The Coriolis effect would be negligible if, and only if, the interferometer also registers the Sagnac effect upon the velocity of the light beams.

Otherwise, you need the Coriolis effect to correctly calculate the fringe shifts, which in turn leads to the computation of the angular velocity.
I thought RLGs register the Sagnac effect as their main method of calculating rotation.

18
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 06, 2019, 07:00:29 PM »
These systems are rediculous and are nothing like what is proposed by astronomy. Most configurations will fly apart or collapse. Not all combinations of systems stay together. If you guys are going to argue that the Three Body Problem can simulate the systems of astronomy then you will need to show and demonstrate, rather than providing speculation.
I've talked with you about this before. This post really demonstrates that you don't understand what's being talked about. Nobody is arguing that there are analytical solutions to the n-body problem, as you are implying.
I think you need to do some research on the basics of numerical integration and how it is different from an analytic solution before you comment again.

And as for a demonstration, just look up NASA's Horizons catalogue and you'll see that it has very accurate orbital information about hundreds of thousands of bodies in the solar system, all by using numerical integration.
Are you now going to argue that these numerical calculations that demonstrably very accurately match real life are somehow invalid?

19
Flat Earth Theory / Re: What are the (flat Earth) stars?
« on: November 06, 2019, 06:47:54 PM »
Yes hundreds , glad we agree on that - your figure of 100,000s is more specific in that that figure  is a thousand hundreds . Wasn't it you that specified the solar system as a 10 body problem ?

I don't suggest anything about the atmosphere and it is chaos theory and the n-body problem which suggests the solar system is unstable .

Numerical simulations are not solutions to problems . They are simulations that is all . A computer may model an orbit but that won't be reality . In order to calculate an n-body orbit then all n-variable initial conditions must be known exactly - which we can never know , and this is why the problem is unsolvable .

Not even asteroid 2003 etc orbit is calculable , although you may simulate the orbit numerically . If we can't see ass2003 with the naked eye then how can we ,by observation , tell you where it will be in 50yrs ?
I didn't quite understand your answer - do you understand that the atmosphere is also an analytically unsolvable n-body problem or not?

A numerical simulation can predict where an asteroid will be in 50 years with a known error. As it turns out, the solar system is 'calm' enough such that you can predict the position of any body within the solar system to very high accuracy for the next at least 100 years, probably a lot more.

Just to try and open your eyes, here's something to think about: can you tell me of any physical system that is analytically (i.e. exactly) solvable? You'll find that there are almost 0 problems in Physics that are analytically solvable. It's just a reality of the complex world we live in.

20
Flat Earth Investigations / Re: Size/distance of Sun
« on: November 06, 2019, 06:28:06 PM »
The difference amounts to a factor of O(n x 16), where n ~<= 6.378

Here is how to calculate the radius of the Earth at a certain latitude:

https://web.archive.org/web/20150919165338/http://www.usenet-replayer.com/faq/comp.infosystems.gis.html (section 5.1b)
Hey! That's what I said, right? So since Coriolos effect on a RLG is negligibe, it has no effect on my initial statement.

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