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Other Discussion Boards => Technology & Information => Topic started by: Rushy on January 15, 2014, 04:17:41 AM

Title: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 15, 2014, 04:17:41 AM
Among the defendants is Amazon.com, for hosting the websites, Johnny Bravo, I don't even know why, and Dogecoin, the person, not the coin, since someone is squatting Coinye domain names under the alias "dogecoin."

http://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/2014/01/15/coinye-im-sorry-kanye-west-suing-dogecoin-amazon-coinye-exchanges-developers/

Either Kanye is a complete tool or a marketing genius. I'm going with the former.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Tau on January 15, 2014, 04:32:36 AM
I can't see an argument for marketing genius. Sure he's getting his name out there, but making people think you're pathetic and more jealous than the Old Testament God isn't going to make people think you're hardcore and it isn't going to sell albums.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 15, 2014, 04:34:37 AM
I can't see an argument for marketing genius. Sure he's getting his name out there, but making people think you're pathetic and more jealous than the Old Testament God isn't going to make people think you're hardcore and it isn't going to sell albums.

>invest in BTC
>teach courts and public about BTC by gaining publicity for suing a BTC spin-off
>watch as your investment skyrockets due to increased public knowledge

Kanye may seem pretty stupid, but sometimes I can't help but point to the fact that he has a lot more money than me. If he's stupid, well then maybe I need to be stupid too.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 15, 2014, 04:54:58 AM
When you ride another's coattails, you risk being shaken off.

(Did that sound wise?  I hope so.  I want it to become a proverb or something.)
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Socker on January 15, 2014, 05:44:35 AM
What a Kanye Pest.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 15, 2014, 01:29:43 PM
Who actually uses bitcoins, anyway?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 15, 2014, 02:24:32 PM
Drug dealers.
Quote from: http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/10/26/net-us-crime-silkroad-seizure-idUSBRE99P01620131026
(Reuters) - U.S. authorities have seized an estimated $28 million in the digital currency bitcoins from the alleged owner of "Silk Road," the online marketplace for drugs and criminal activity that law enforcement shut down three weeks ago.

Federal prosecutors in New York said Friday that the 144,336 bitcoins, a digital currency widely used on the defunct site, were discovered on computer hardware belonging to Ross William Ulbricht, known online as "Dread Pirate Roberts," who was arrested October 1 in San Francisco and charged with various conspiracy counts. They said it represented the largest ever bitcoin seizure.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 15, 2014, 03:01:54 PM
Who actually uses bitcoins, anyway?
Rushy
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2014, 04:10:43 PM
Rushy is a drug dealer. 

http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=1108.0
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 15, 2014, 04:14:51 PM
I want to set up my own currency called 'Magic Beans'. You will be able to harvest beans by completing algorithms.  :-B
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 15, 2014, 04:26:39 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the bitcoin algorithms serve any useful function, other than wasting CPU cycles?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: bj1234 on January 15, 2014, 04:40:37 PM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the bitcoin algorithms serve any useful function, other than wasting CPU cycles?
They actually mine coinye coins and send them to the developers.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Lord Dave on January 15, 2014, 07:17:32 PM
I want to set up my own currency called 'Magic Beans'. You will be able to harvest beans by completing algorithms.  :-B
Do those algorithms crack encryption?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 15, 2014, 11:29:56 PM
I want to set up my own currency called 'Magic Beans'. You will be able to harvest beans by completing algorithms.  :-B

Plenty of people have tried to emulate Bitcoin, but can't. You can copy the source code as many times as you want, but Overstock will be taking Bitcoin, not your Thork-coin crap.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the bitcoin algorithms serve any useful function, other than wasting CPU cycles?

Does an armored bank truck do anything other than waste gas? Securing a financial system is not a "waste." In fact, if the world used Bitcoin, billions would be saved every year, as money printing and transport would be obsolete. It costs many times more to maintain the Dollar than it does to maintain Bitcoin.

Who actually uses bitcoins, anyway?

Everyone who bothers to look them up and realize how useful it is.

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 15, 2014, 11:44:26 PM
I want to set up my own currency called 'Magic Beans'. You will be able to harvest beans by completing algorithms.  :-B

Plenty of people have tried to emulate Bitcoin, but can't. You can copy the source code as many times as you want, but Overstock will be taking Bitcoin, not your Thork-coin crap.
Overstock has just made a very powerful enemy >o<

As a slight aside, I saw a guy just set up a bitcoin vault. He offlines peoples bitcoins for them and offers them insurance.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-25680016

however I think he has unwittingly developed a multi-billion dollar business and he doesn't realise it yet. Once you look after other people's bitcoins (a currency) you can loan said currency to other people at a fractional reserve ratio of 9:1. Having a complete monopoly on the currency at present would mean he has masses of depositors.
My understanding is that its hard to get hold of a lot of bitcoins for a project or business idea so loaning other people's bitcoins I would expect to be very profitable and help the currency with hoarding issues making it more usable (how the old goldsmiths started banks).
I don't understand why he would charge people to store their bitcoins. surely you do it for free and make a killing on loan interest on the other side.
The only threat to the world's first e-currency bank would be a bank run. You really can't borrow from anywhere else. but I'd assume if panicked investors started selling coins and withdrawing, they'd have to sell to someone else who would deposit. ???

Something to mull over whilst I wait for my tea to cool I suppose.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2014, 11:47:18 PM
How would you loan bitcoin?  The system does not seem to support this kind of model.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 15, 2014, 11:48:57 PM
How would you loan bitcoin?  The system does not seem to support this kind of model.
You come to me to borrow a bitcoin. I get one out of my vault and tell you give me 1.05 bitcoins back in 3 months. I then sell my .05 bitcoins for real money. ??? Profit.
Where's the problem?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 15, 2014, 11:54:54 PM
That I get bits the fractional reserve system that does not fly. How do you lend bitcoins you do not have?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 16, 2014, 12:00:32 AM
How did goldsmiths lend gold they didn't have? They made paper gold. A promissory note from the bank. I promise to pay the bearer on demand ... etc and so forth.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2014, 12:04:00 AM
How did goldsmiths lend gold they didn't have? They made paper gold. A promissory note from the bank. I promise to pay the bearer on demand ... etc and so forth.

Doesn't that make bitcoins as stupid and retarded as the present currency system?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 16, 2014, 12:05:09 AM
How did goldsmiths lend gold they didn't have? They made paper gold. A promissory note from the bank. I promise to pay the bearer on demand ... etc and so forth.

Doesn't that make bitcoins as stupid and retarded as the present currency system?
Its either a currency or its not. If it is, its subject to the same laws of finance.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2014, 12:11:54 AM
Please cite the relevant statute.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 16, 2014, 12:16:37 AM
Please cite the relevant statute.
???
What do I look like, an American finance lawyer? Its a planar currency.

If you have an objection, state it. World banks are subject to regulation. This would be no different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2014, 12:21:29 AM
My objection is you making this claim and not being able to bak it up. No worries!  5 minutes on the internet revealed that a bitcoin fractional reserve system is already in its beginning stages:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin

Thanks for your insight!
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Lord Dave on January 16, 2014, 01:08:34 AM
What would you use it for in a loan?  It's not like I can buy a car with bitcoin unless I converted it into cash first.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 16, 2014, 01:58:57 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone know if the bitcoin algorithms serve any useful function, other than wasting CPU cycles?

Does an armored bank truck do anything other than waste gas?
Armored cars transport stuff.  What do bitcoin algorithms do?

Quote
Securing a financial system is not a "waste." In fact, if the world used Bitcoin, billions would be saved every year, as money printing and transport would be obsolete. It costs many times more to maintain the Dollar than it does to maintain Bitcoin.
A $100 bill cost about 13 cents to print and smaller bills are less than 10 cents.  How much does it cost to generate a bitcoin?  How many bitcoins will ever be produced?  How many other forms of crypto-currency are being developed and will they be compatible?  What is the exchange rate between bitcoins and coinyes?  What about financial transactions that require anonymity?  How do you stuff a bitcoin in a stripper's g-string?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 16, 2014, 02:02:59 AM
How do you stuff a bitcoin in a stripper's g-string?

Insert a USB key?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 16, 2014, 02:52:32 AM
Money ain't grow on trees, son.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 16, 2014, 03:29:04 AM
Armored cars transport stuff.  What do bitcoin algorithms do?

Transport stuff. Just a lot more efficiently than a truck covered in plates of heavy armor.

A $100 bill cost about 13 cents to print and smaller bills are less than 10 cents.  How much does it cost to generate a bitcoin?  How many bitcoins will ever be produced?  How many other forms of crypto-currency are being developed and will they be compatible?  What is the exchange rate between bitcoins and coinyes?  What about financial transactions that require anonymity?  How do you stuff a bitcoin in a stripper's g-string?

http://bitcoin.org/en/faq

What do I look like, an American finance lawyer? Its a planar currency.

If you have an objection, state it. World banks are subject to regulation. This would be no different.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractional-reserve_banking

Fractional reserve banking doesn't work with Bitcoin, because unlike paper currency, you can't simply print more of it when you run out. You either have Bitcoin or you don't. I would never take a Bitcoin "IOU." The difference being with dollars you can't tell if the bank is lying to you or not, but with Bitcoin you can absolutely tell how much you actually control. With Bitcoin a bank isn't really necessary, done right no one can steal your Bitcoins. Mine are on Google Drive, for example, and it would take some poor sucker over 14 trillion years to figure out the long ass password I encrypted them with.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 16, 2014, 04:55:44 AM
Armored cars transport stuff.  What do bitcoin algorithms do?

Transport stuff. Just a lot more efficiently than a truck covered in plates of heavy armor.
How long does it take to generate a bitcoin?

Quote
A $100 bill cost about 13 cents to print and smaller bills are less than 10 cents.  How much does it cost to generate a bitcoin?  How many bitcoins will ever be produced?  How many other forms of crypto-currency are being developed and will they be compatible?  What is the exchange rate between bitcoins and coinyes?  What about financial transactions that require anonymity?  How do you stuff a bitcoin in a stripper's g-string?

http://bitcoin.org/en/faq
So you don't know?  Got it.

Quote
With Bitcoin a bank isn't really necessary, done right no one can steal your Bitcoins.
Apparently, it isn't being done right:
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/250-000-worth-bitcoins-stolen-net-heist-980871
http://threatpost.com/thieves-covering-tracks-following-100m-bitcoin-heist/103088
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/05/million-dollar-fine-for-sneaky-bitcoin-botnet-builders/
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/gaming-company-caught-building-bitcoin-mining-botnet-users-computers-gets-light
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 16, 2014, 05:15:21 AM
How long does it take to generate a bitcoin?

Approximately 10 minutes.

So you don't know?  Got it.

Harhar. Just like with RE'ers, I'm not going to answer any stupid questions. I will not take time out of my day to resolve your ignorance.

Apparently, it isn't being done right:
http://www.nbcnews.com/technology/250-000-worth-bitcoins-stolen-net-heist-980871
http://threatpost.com/thieves-covering-tracks-following-100m-bitcoin-heist/103088
http://nakedsecurity.sophos.com/2013/12/05/million-dollar-fine-for-sneaky-bitcoin-botnet-builders/
http://www.networkworld.com/community/blog/gaming-company-caught-building-bitcoin-mining-botnet-users-computers-gets-light

Yes, a lot of people are stupid.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Lord Dave on January 16, 2014, 11:18:08 AM
How long does it take to generate a bitcoin?

Approximately 10 minutes.

I'm pretty sure that's not accurate unless you have a very large pool.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: la xasop on January 16, 2014, 11:24:13 AM
How do you stuff a bitcoin in a stripper's g-string?

You could start by encoding bitcoins into your haploid DNA, and let things progress naturally from there.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 16, 2014, 11:27:26 AM
Fractional reserve banking doesn't work with Bitcoin

Just because you can't see how it could work doesn't mean it can't work. Why didn't you read the thread before you opened your yap with your 'expertise'.

My objection is you making this claim and not being able to bak it up. No worries!  5 minutes on the internet revealed that a bitcoin fractional reserve system is already in its beginning stages:

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Fractional_Reserve_Banking_and_Bitcoin

Thanks for your insight!
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 16, 2014, 11:51:00 AM
Quote
What is Bitcoin?

Bitcoin is a consensus network that enables a new payment system and a completely digital money. It is the first decentralized peer-to-peer payment network that is powered by its users with no central authority or middlemen. From a user perspective, Bitcoin is pretty much like cash for the Internet. Bitcoin can also be seen as the most prominent triple entry bookkeeping system in existence.

Ah, well at least that's clear...

Quote
How does BitCoin work?

This ledger contains every transaction ever processed

Yeah... there's absolutely nothing which could go wrong with that system...

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 17, 2014, 03:37:17 AM
Just because you can't see how it could work doesn't mean it can't work. Why didn't you read the thread before you opened your yap with your 'expertise'.

"Hi, I'm Thork, and I make it plainly obvious that I didn't read the link I posted."

Ah, well at least that's clear...

Or you know, you could try asking about the part you didn't understand?

Yeah... there's absolutely nothing which could go wrong with that system...

What's your point here?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 17, 2014, 04:09:44 AM
Just because you can't see how it could work doesn't mean it can't work. Why didn't you read the thread before you opened your yap with your 'expertise'.

"Hi, I'm Thork, and I make it plainly obvious that I didn't read the link I posted."

Ah, well at least that's clear...

Or you know, you could try asking about the part you didn't understand?

Yeah... there's absolutely nothing which could go wrong with that system...

What's your point here?

whoosh
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 17, 2014, 01:56:19 PM
Quote
Or you know, you could try asking about the part you didn't understand?

What's a consensus network and how does it differ from a normal network? What's a triple-entry bookkeeping system? Aren't pounds and dollars 'currency for the internet?' They seem to be accepted more readily than Bitcoins.

Quote
What's your point here?

That keeping a detailed log of every transaction ever made inherently has some security and privacy concerns.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 18, 2014, 01:19:37 AM
What's a consensus network and how does it differ from a normal network?

What kind of network are you referring to as "normal" here?

What's a triple-entry bookkeeping system?

The sender, receiver, and an anonymous third party each verify the transaction. As a result, none of them have to trust each other, because there is no single point along the transaction line that someone can forge the ledger.

Aren't pounds and dollars 'currency for the internet?' They seem to be accepted more readily than Bitcoins.

And? Just because pounds and dollars are currency for the internet doesn't mean Bitcoin isn't for the internet.

That keeping a detailed log of every transaction ever made inherently has some security and privacy concerns.

Security wise it is the most secure transaction system ever created. Yes, it is inherently not private, but nothing you do online is private anyway, so I don't see the problem here.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 22, 2014, 11:14:04 PM
Armored cars transport stuff stop people stealing money.   What do bitcoin algorithms do?

See armored car.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 22, 2014, 11:57:06 PM
I didn't want to make a new thread for another Bitcoin spin-off, but I found this particular amazing.

http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2014/jan/20/jamaican-bobsled-team-raises-dogecoin-winter-olympics
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 23, 2014, 12:03:23 AM
Makes me think of John Candy. RIP, Big Guy. :'(
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 23, 2014, 02:08:58 AM
I have my computer mining Dogecoins now. The community is right, having thousands and thousands of coins, despite them being worthless, is pretty neat.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Blanko on January 23, 2014, 02:12:10 AM
I have my computer mining Dogecoins now. The community is right, having thousands and thousands of coins, despite them being worthless, is pretty neat.

Oh, look who called it:

(https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/6/65/Dogecoin_logo.png)
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 23, 2014, 02:16:48 AM
But do you actually have any? If not then I doubt you called shit.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Blanko on January 23, 2014, 02:20:24 AM
Uh... what?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 23, 2014, 02:31:51 AM
Uh... what?

I thought so.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Blanko on January 23, 2014, 02:33:40 AM
Are you asking for handouts?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 23, 2014, 02:34:50 AM
Are you asking for handouts?

Have you even seen my signature?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: spank86 on January 23, 2014, 10:10:12 AM
I want to set up my own currency called 'Magic Beans'. You will be able to harvest beans by completing algorithms.  :-B

I'm going to go down to McDonalds with a stack of completed Times crosswords (OK, they'll be half finished Sun ones) and attempt to use them to buy burgers.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 23, 2014, 12:12:16 PM
I'm going to go down to McDonalds with a stack of completed Times crosswords (OK, they'll be half finished Sun ones) and attempt to use them to buy burgers.

This would work if there was a limited supply of Times crosswords.

As far as I can tell BitCoin uses the algorithmic mining to control the flow of BitCoins into the market, thus producing a stable and viable currency.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 23, 2014, 12:40:38 PM
As far as I can tell BitCoin uses the algorithmic mining to control the flow of BitCoins into the market, thus producing a stable and viable currency.
"Stable" is not what I'd call it. Those fluctuations, man.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 23, 2014, 01:35:07 PM
As far as I can tell BitCoin uses the algorithmic mining to control the flow of BitCoins into the market, thus producing a stable and viable currency.
"Stable" is not what I'd call it. Those fluctuations, man.
I'm thinking that the term "currency" is used rather loosely as well. 
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 23, 2014, 03:53:11 PM
As far as I can tell BitCoin uses the algorithmic mining to control the flow of BitCoins into the market, thus producing a stable and viable currency.
"Stable" is not what I'd call it. Those fluctuations, man.

lrn2fappenhosen

also lrn2getrichquick
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 23, 2014, 08:55:53 PM
thus producing a stable and viable currency.
Its not a currency.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/20/bitcoin-commodity-finland/
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 23, 2014, 09:05:03 PM
The Daily Mash (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/man-who-invested-in-bitcoins-almost-able-explain-what-they-are-2014012282804) pretty much sums up my opinions on this pointless gimmick.

Quote
She added: “I suggested the value of Bitcoins seemed to be completely arbitrary and then asked why it was different from investing in a fictional Portuguese holiday village.

“He smiled at me and asked if I had heard of ‘electric wallets’ but he soon found himself circling back towards ‘the future’
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 23, 2014, 10:21:08 PM
The Daily Mash (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/science-technology/man-who-invested-in-bitcoins-almost-able-explain-what-they-are-2014012282804) pretty much sums up my opinions on this pointless gimmick.

Quote
She added: “I suggested the value of Bitcoins seemed to be completely arbitrary and then asked why it was different from investing in a fictional Portuguese holiday village.

“He smiled at me and asked if I had heard of ‘electric wallets’ but he soon found himself circling back towards ‘the future’

The cost of a bitcoin doesn't need to be arbitrary. I would peg it at whatever the cost would be of renting out the cheapest supercomputer resources for however many cycles it would take to produce 1 bitcoin.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Saddam Hussein on January 23, 2014, 10:23:38 PM
thus producing a stable and viable currency.
Its not a currency.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/20/bitcoin-commodity-finland/

You of all people are going to accept a central bank's opinion on this issue?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 23, 2014, 10:49:53 PM
http://www.butterflylabs.com/

That place there is charging about $9,000USD/yr to rent a machine which performs at 1GH/s for one year, which seems to be able to produce about 24 coins a day at the current difficulty level. It looks like that means that it's about $1.06/bitcoin to rent a machine for long enough that will produce exactly one bitcoin. That should be the current price of the bitcoin.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 23, 2014, 10:53:24 PM
thus producing a stable and viable currency.
Its not a currency.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/20/bitcoin-commodity-finland/

You of all people are going to accept a central bank's opinion on this issue?
Being a commodity will work in its favour. Gold is a commodity. Its valuable. Currencies can be printed until Kingdom come.

I thought the article was interesting for 2 reasons.
1) The competition to virtual currencies is now moving to remove the threat.
2) The amount of legislation in place to make them unfavourable. Paying capital gains tax if you make money. Not being able to write losses against tax. Paying income tax on mined coins. Its like they want to take money however possible from the system and give it no support at all.
Central banks do not like bitcoin. Almost (almost) makes me want to own some.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 23, 2014, 11:57:36 PM
thus producing a stable and viable currency.
Its not recognised as a currency in Finland.

http://mashable.com/2014/01/20/bitcoin-commodity-finland/

Fixed.

But I largely agree. People are mining them in the hope their value will increase. It's a fun game for nerds who would probably leave their computer on all day anyway. They used to be good for buying guns, drugs and whores. No more. :(

http://www.butterflylabs.com/

That place there is charging about $9,000USD/yr to rent a machine which performs at 1GH/s for one year, which seems to be able to produce about 24 coins a day at the current difficulty level. It looks like that means that it's about $1.06/bitcoin to rent a machine for long enough that will produce exactly one bitcoin. That should be the current price of the bitcoin.

Sell sell sell?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Blanko on January 23, 2014, 11:59:45 PM
But I largely agree. People are mining them in the hope their value will increase. It's a fun game for nerds who would probably leave their computer on all day anyway. They used to be good for buying guns, drugs and whores. No more. :(

Is it just me, or did that sound exactly like Thork?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 24, 2014, 12:03:06 AM
They used to be good for buying guns, drugs and whores. No more. :(
Why?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 12:10:23 AM
They used to be good for buying guns, drugs and whores. No more. :(
Why?

The Silk Road closed. So I hear.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Benjamin Franklin on January 24, 2014, 01:33:38 AM
They used to be good for buying guns, drugs and whores. No more. :(
Why?

The Silk Road closed. So I hear.
It's back up. Or so I've heard. And besides, there's plenty of imitators out there for websites of that nature. The Silk Road was the most famous, but by no means the only.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 24, 2014, 04:14:48 AM
http://www.butterflylabs.com/

That place there is charging about $9,000USD/yr to rent a machine which performs at 1GH/s for one year, which seems to be able to produce about 24 coins a day at the current difficulty level. It looks like that means that it's about $1.06/bitcoin to rent a machine for long enough that will produce exactly one bitcoin. That should be the current price of the bitcoin.

I wouldn't base anything on Butterfly Labs, considering its a well known scam among the Bitcoin community. It catches all the newbies in its crosshairs and its rather good at doing that. When it comes to bitcoin miners, if the website looks really nice, its a scam. If the website looks like it was cobbled together by a college freshman, its legit.

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 24, 2014, 01:29:07 PM
I think if Kanye wins he should get to keep all the Coinyes.

And now I want him to win.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 24, 2014, 05:02:39 PM
The Silk Road closed. So I hear.
It's only been down for a couple of days after the seizure.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 24, 2014, 10:21:44 PM
http://www.butterflylabs.com/

That place there is charging about $9,000USD/yr to rent a machine which performs at 1GH/s for one year, which seems to be able to produce about 24 coins a day at the current difficulty level. It looks like that means that it's about $1.06/bitcoin to rent a machine for long enough that will produce exactly one bitcoin. That should be the current price of the bitcoin.

I wouldn't base anything on Butterfly Labs, considering its a well known scam among the Bitcoin community. It catches all the newbies in its crosshairs and its rather good at doing that. When it comes to bitcoin miners, if the website looks really nice, its a scam. If the website looks like it was cobbled together by a college freshman, its legit.

So then how much would it cost currently? It can't be more than an order of magnitude off.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 01:52:20 AM
So then how much would it cost currently? It can't be more than an order of magnitude off.

You mean the equipment or the electricity? At 1.5 W/Gh/s it costs roughly $16M to churn out $4.4M in Bitcoin. The equipment itself varies, based on the tech (65nm vs 20nm) and availability (preorder vs shipping).

The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 12:00:04 PM
The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.

Why pay $822.9 for a bit coin when you can mine one for $1.06 (allegedly)?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 12:43:24 PM
I wouldn't base anything on Butterfly Labs, considering its a well known scam among the Bitcoin community.
I'm curious. I've once seen a review of one of their miners on ArsTechnica and it seemed like it did exactly what it said on the box, with the specs they claimed. Why, or in what way, are they a scam?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: markjo on January 25, 2014, 03:42:27 PM
The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.
That makes bitcoins a commodity, not a currency.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: spank86 on January 25, 2014, 04:09:56 PM
The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.
That makes bitcoins a commodity, not a currency.

Kinda makes all national currencies commodities too since there's an exchange rate.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 04:43:03 PM
I'm curious. I've once seen a review of one of their miners on ArsTechnica and it seemed like it did exactly what it said on the box, with the specs they claimed. Why, or in what way, are they a scam?

They take pre-orders for miners, mine with them, and then ship them to you when they're no longer profitable. It took a year and a half for people (not paid media outlets) to receive their miners. Anyone who asked about it or complained was instantly banned on their forums. You'll get your miner from them, as soon as it stops making them money. Buying something from Butterfly Labs is like investing in them indefinitely with no returns. They also don't offer refunds.

That makes bitcoins a commodity, not a currency.

You have literally no idea what a currency is, do you?

Why pay $822.9 for a bit coin when you can mine one for $1.06 (allegedly)?

Go ahead and mine a bitcoin for a dollar. I would really like to see you try it.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Lord Dave on January 25, 2014, 05:29:27 PM
BitCoin was recently mentioned as an untracable currency in the show "Almost Human".

Neat huh?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 25, 2014, 05:58:39 PM
Isn't one of the points that it is eminently traceable?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 06:05:16 PM
Go ahead and mine a bitcoin for a dollar. I would really like to see you try it.

That's why I said allegedly. Or is there some link between effort and value?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 06:40:10 PM
Isn't one of the points that it is eminently traceable?

It is and it isn't. Send a bitcoin to a large exchange address and then have the exchange send it back. Chances are outrageously high that the bitcoin you sent isn't the one you received.

That's why I said allegedly. Or is there some link between effort and value?

Mining a bitcoin isn't as simple as "pay this, receive this." There is no amazon.com selling bitcoin miners with free 2-day shipping. Good luck trying to buy one, much less having it to your doorstep and mining with it. A lot of sites claiming "cloud hashing" are just money grabs.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 06:51:01 PM
They take pre-orders for miners, mine with them, and then ship them to you when they're no longer profitable. It took a year and a half for people (not paid media outlets) to receive their miners. Anyone who asked about it or complained was instantly banned on their forums. You'll get your miner from them, as soon as it stops making them money. Buying something from Butterfly Labs is like investing in them indefinitely with no returns. They also don't offer refunds.
All right. Suppose I wanted to get some sort of entry-level miner rig. Where do I look?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 08:27:51 PM
All right. Suppose I wanted to get some sort of entry-level miner rig. Where do I look?

Depends, do you want to mine Bitcoin? Because at this point there is no such thing as an entry level miner that makes money. I would suggest mining Litecoin or another Scrypt currency and trading it for Bitcoin. To mine litecoin all you need is an enthusiast grade graphics card, i.e. the ones that cost $300 or more.

If you're dead set on mining Bitcoin you can try buying old 65nm tech on e-bay. Probably not going to make any money at it, though. Not many people sell their miners if they are still making money.

http://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_trksid=p2050601.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC0.Xgh%2Fs&_nkw=gh%2Fs&_sacat=0&_from=R40

Use this to calculate how much money you think you'll make.

http://www.coinwarz.com/calculators/bitcoin-mining-calculator
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 08:31:08 PM
They take pre-orders for miners, mine with them, and then ship them to you when they're no longer profitable. It took a year and a half for people (not paid media outlets) to receive their miners. Anyone who asked about it or complained was instantly banned on their forums. You'll get your miner from them, as soon as it stops making them money. Buying something from Butterfly Labs is like investing in them indefinitely with no returns. They also don't offer refunds.
All right. Suppose I wanted to get some sort of entry-level miner rig. Where do I look?

http://tag.wonderhowto.com/bypass-electric-meter/
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 09:18:19 PM
I'm not dead set on Bitcoin, no. A major issue for me is that I currently don't have a desktop, so I can either go for one of those magical tiny boxes people seem to be advertising a lot, or build a desktop from scratch. The latter is something I plan to do at some point anyway, but I'd like to make it good, and I keep spending money on silly things like replacing my broken laptop or flying to other continents.

http://tag.wonderhowto.com/bypass-electric-meter/
I share a house with 10 people, and we split the bill evenly.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 25, 2014, 09:32:27 PM
I share a house with 10 people
Another Polish immigrant nest.  :-\
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 25, 2014, 09:42:11 PM
I share a house with 10 people, and we split the bill evenly.

If you started mining I doubt those 10 people would enjoy splitting the bill. Depending on how much you pay for electricity, mining can get pretty expensive.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Pete Svarrior on January 25, 2014, 10:17:12 PM
Another Polish immigrant nest.  :-\
>implying I associate with Polish immigrants

If you started mining I doubt those 10 people would enjoy splitting the bill.
Yes, but I also don't know them, so lol. I already run an electric heater because I couldn't get them to agree on a sensible central heating policy, which obviously collectively costs us more than heating the entire house.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: jroa on January 25, 2014, 11:11:38 PM
Another Polish immigrant nest.  :-\
>implying I associate with Polish immigrants
No, implying that you are a Polish immigrant living in an immigrant nest. 
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 25, 2014, 11:15:35 PM
Mining a bitcoin isn't as simple as "pay this, receive this." There is no amazon.com selling bitcoin miners with free 2-day shipping. Good luck trying to buy one, much less having it to your doorstep and mining with it. A lot of sites claiming "cloud hashing" are just money grabs.

No. It's as simple as download this. Run this. What the fuck are you babbling on about?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 12:48:17 AM
No. It's as simple as download this. Run this. What the fuck are you babbling on about?

Uhh, okay. Download away.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 26, 2014, 05:32:04 AM
So then how much would it cost currently? It can't be more than an order of magnitude off.

You mean the equipment or the electricity? At 1.5 W/Gh/s it costs roughly $16M to churn out $4.4M in Bitcoin. The equipment itself varies, based on the tech (65nm vs 20nm) and availability (preorder vs shipping).

The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.

From what you just said, it looks like people are willing to pay about 4x more than what bitcoins are currently worth. That doesn't make sense.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Lord Dave on January 26, 2014, 01:05:02 PM
So then how much would it cost currently? It can't be more than an order of magnitude off.

You mean the equipment or the electricity? At 1.5 W/Gh/s it costs roughly $16M to churn out $4.4M in Bitcoin. The equipment itself varies, based on the tech (65nm vs 20nm) and availability (preorder vs shipping).

The argument itself that bitcoin is worth what it costs to mine it is silly. Bitcoin is worth what people will pay for it.

From what you just said, it looks like people are willing to pay about 4x more than what bitcoins are currently worth. That doesn't make sense.
It does if you believe they'll be worth 5x the current price some day.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 03:42:55 PM
From what you just said, it looks like people are willing to pay about 4x more than what bitcoins are currently worth. That doesn't make sense.

Do you think gold or diamond is worth what it takes to pull them out of the ground? Because that's the argument you're making here. A common person can only buy gold, they can't mine it, because they don't own any gold mines. Same goes for bitcoins. You can't mine it if you don't own any miners.

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 26, 2014, 04:41:06 PM
A common person
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: spank86 on January 26, 2014, 04:42:36 PM
From what you just said, it looks like people are willing to pay about 4x more than what bitcoins are currently worth. That doesn't make sense.

Do you think gold or diamond is worth what it takes to pull them out of the ground?
I'd say worth more as a general rule.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 05:26:31 PM
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: fappenhosen on January 26, 2014, 08:41:09 PM
No but it certainly gives a base for its value.

I'm selling biscuits with a picture of Joss Stone on them in icing sugar. Buy now because in 2 years they will be worth $7000.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 26, 2014, 09:01:21 PM
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.

Enigma is right in that if the value of a bitcoin never rises above the cost to mine/bitcoin, there is value constantly being taken out of the system. Is there economies of scale to be had in mining?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 09:10:24 PM
Enigma is right in that if the value of a bitcoin never rises above the cost to mine/bitcoin, there is value constantly being taken out of the system. Is there economies of scale to be had in mining?

Mining is ultimately limited by computer technology. The most efficient miner available for pre-order is 20nm tech and the most efficient miner released is 28nm tech. You're also limited by how much that tech costs. For example Intel is spending billions on their new 14nm foundries, and there are very few foundries that produce 20nm semiconductors, so you have to deal with the fact that even though better tech is more efficient, it has an exponential cost up front.

I don't think Bitcoin will see miners smaller than 20nm for at least a year, maybe two. Honestly none of this even matters, Bitcoin's price isn't driven by mining. Mining is a lagging indicator, not a leading one. More people mine bitcoins because they're worth more, they're not worth more because more people mine.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 26, 2014, 09:33:25 PM
I don't think Bitcoin will see miners smaller than 20nm for at least a year, maybe two. Honestly none of this even matters, Bitcoin's price isn't driven by mining. Mining is a lagging indicator, not a leading one. More people mine bitcoins because they're worth more, they're not worth more because more people mine.

I get that but if it costs >1 bitcoin to mine 1 bitcoin then the currency is doomed to failure.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 09:35:29 PM
I get that but if it costs >1 bitcoin to mine 1 bitcoin then the currency is doomed to failure.

And?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 26, 2014, 10:39:40 PM
Bitcoin is shit until then.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 26, 2014, 11:41:22 PM
Bitcoin is shit until then.

I think you're confused.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 12:25:50 AM
No you
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 27, 2014, 07:43:55 PM
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.

Well, if it would cost me 4 bitcoins worth of resources to mine 1 bitcoin, then I'd have been better off using those resources to buy 4 bitcoins. I don't know why anyone would choose to mine bitcoins at a loss if you can purchase them cheaper. Rational people would always make this choice, until the cost of a bitcoin is greater than the cost to mine it yourself.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 08:32:23 PM
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Thork on January 27, 2014, 08:38:55 PM
You've become a bit of a snob now that you have a few bitcoins on your harddrive. Virtual money changes people. >:(

It's digital money. And yes, you are a poor peasant.  >:(

I'd say worth more as a general rule.

Well, Enigma seems to think something is only worth the resources it requires to obtain it.

Well, if it would cost me 4 bitcoins worth of resources to mine 1 bitcoin, then I'd have been better off using those resources to buy 4 bitcoins. I don't know why anyone would choose to mine bitcoins at a loss if you can purchase them cheaper. Rational people would always make this choice, until the cost of a bitcoin is greater than the cost to mine it yourself.
It makes me wonder if the mining of bitcoins won't just cease. No more bitcoins as it is too expensive to mine them. You have to assume most of the bitcoins that will ever be are already owned by other people. So where do you do from there? Somewhere else I suspect.

I am struggling to think of a more environmentally wasteful currency. One that uses energy to perform calculations that do nothing. If they were solving folding problems for cancer research or solving genome problems I could see the point. Why not just take a ticket and wait for your bitcoin based on time?
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 27, 2014, 08:57:07 PM
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 08:57:40 PM
I kind of get it, since crunching the algorithm gives the system a very measurable demand for the currency to base its value on. I am not sure if it is more or less wasteful than traditional methods of currency production.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 08:59:46 PM
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Ghost Spaghetti on January 27, 2014, 09:13:59 PM
Quote
Mining a bitcoin isn't as simple as "pay this, receive this." There is no amazon.com selling bitcoin miners with free 2-day shipping. Good luck trying to buy one, much less having it to your doorstep and mining with it. A lot of sites claiming "cloud hashing" are just money grabs.

That sounds like virtually every aspect of Bitcoin.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: spank86 on January 27, 2014, 09:42:33 PM
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.

But if you buy the bitcoin for $100 you can get 4 and in a year they'll be worth $1,800 and you didn't have to buy a mining rig.

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 09:51:05 PM
Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 27, 2014, 10:04:08 PM
Or at least the FV of 1 bitcoin is worth more than the cost to mine 1 bitcoin.

No. As long as it's more expensive to mine a bitcoin than it is to buy one, rational people will choose to buy the bitcoin, rather than produce it themselves.

No. If you spend $400 to mine a bitcoin that you know will be worth $450 in one year, and your $400, invested will only garner $449.99, then you obviously should mine the bitcoin. It's called Future Value and is an extremely important concept when evaluating commodities and currencies.

But right now, I could spend $400, and get 4x the number of bitcoins without mining anything, as in this example, you can buy a bitcoin for $100. So now, instead of spending $400 to make $50, you're spending $400 to buy 4 coins, and making $1,400 ($350 x 4). The FV is only important in your decision to obtain bitcoins, not in the method you should go about getting them.

Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.

I've considered the value proposition of mining. Right now, if Rushy is correct with his numbers, it's 4x more expensive to produce bitcoins yourself than to purchase them. With this information, it's more rational to simply buy bitcoins rather than spend money mining them, and it will continue to be the case that nobody should mine them, until the cost  to purchase them exceeds the cost to produce them.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: spank86 on January 27, 2014, 10:38:07 PM
Yes, but mining is necessary if the currency is going to proliferate so at some point the value proposition of mining must be considered.

Personally I'd consider it when the value of a bitcoin approaches, or rather exceeds the cost of mining it.

Up till that point it makes more sense to acquire them of others wherever you can. That or collect beanie babies with the money.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 11:19:43 PM
Well I just looked at the KnCMiner Neptune that is supposed to come out soon (maybe it already has) and it looks promising. At 3TH/s it should be able to mine one block every 1.4 days. Using 3kW (est.) of power means that it would consume 2160 kWh/month and at 0.109$/kWh you are talking about $250/month to run it while earning 535 bitcoins a month on average. So unless there is something profoundly wrong with my calculations, or this miner is a bunch of BS, it already is viable.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: EnigmaZV on January 27, 2014, 11:31:14 PM
Well I just looked at the KnCMiner Neptune that is supposed to come out soon (maybe it already has) and it looks promising. At 3TH/s it should be able to mine one block every 1.4 days. Using 3kW (est.) of power means that it would consume 2160 kWh/month and at 0.109$/kWh you are talking about $250/month to run it while earning 535 bitcoins a month on average. So unless there is something profoundly wrong with my calculations, or this miner is a bunch of BS, it already is viable.

In this case, a bitcoin would cost $0.47 to produce, plus whatever the cost of this Neptune thing is over its useful life, which if Moore's Law is correct should be about 2 years. The only thing I saw was that these things cost $10,000, so $420/mo, which would put the cost of production at $1.25/bitcoin. In which case, why would anyone pay the $800/bitcoin it costs now, when you can produce your own for $1.25. We now have a lower limit of cost at $1.25 per coin, which means that the difference between the cost to produce, and the cost to buy is a 640 times difference. Nobody in their right mind would pay that kind of markup, and if you're spending $3,200 to produce a bitcoin, as Rushy would have us believe, while someone else is spending $1.25 to produce the same product, you'd be better off putting your resources to something else.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rama Set on January 27, 2014, 11:45:13 PM
Yeah I totally agree. I was shocked when these numbers came up which makes me think that I am missing a piece of information because if Rushy seems to know his bitcoins. Maybe he can weigh in about this miner?

Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 28, 2014, 02:18:51 AM
Do me a favor guys and just ask questions, you're all stumbling around in the dark and I'm not sure where to begin... or whether I should laugh or cry.


I was shocked when these numbers came up which makes me think that I am missing a piece of information because if Rushy seems to know his bitcoins. Maybe he can weigh in about this miner?

The KnC Neptune isn't due to arrive until June or later. I can't tell you how many bitcoins it can mine, because predicting what the difficulty in June will be would be pure voodoo.

In this case, a bitcoin would cost $0.47 to produce, plus whatever the cost of this Neptune thing is over its useful life, which if Moore's Law is correct should be about 2 years. The only thing I saw was that these things cost $10,000, so $420/mo, which would put the cost of production at $1.25/bitcoin. In which case, why would anyone pay the $800/bitcoin it costs now, when you can produce your own for $1.25. We now have a lower limit of cost at $1.25 per coin, which means that the difference between the cost to produce, and the cost to buy is a 640 times difference. Nobody in their right mind would pay that kind of markup, and if you're spending $3,200 to produce a bitcoin, as Rushy would have us believe, while someone else is spending $1.25 to produce the same product, you'd be better off putting your resources to something else.

You seem to be doing a great job of confusing yourself, so I'm going to make this simple.

1. ASIC miners make a shitload of money. They are literally money printers and people are paying through the nose to grab one.
2. The company doesn't mine with their own miners because that is called "selfish mining" and it theoretically causes you to lose more money than you make because you damage the Bitcoin network. Butterfly Labs tried doing that and most of the community ignores them now. Unfortunately they continue to catch newbs in their marketing trap.
3. "as Rushy would have us believe" is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. You're making shit up and putting words in my mouth. I'm starting to think you don't even read my posts.

That sounds like virtually every aspect of Bitcoin.

Well if you want to be vague, all of life that has ever existed is a money grab.
Title: Re: Coinye, a Bitcoin spin-off, is being sued by Kanye West
Post by: Rushy on January 28, 2014, 03:30:30 AM
http://www.icanbarelydraw.com/comic/2565