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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #600 on: July 20, 2022, 04:51:29 PM »
If by "dispose of it" you mean the 2nd ammendment, then your hypothetical is nonsensical because no branch of government can unilaterally change the constitution, so who cares?

By "dispose of" I mean disposing of the Fed because they became too tyrannical. Violating the second amendment might be one reason, yes.

Question along the same lines; Isn't the fact that a citizen can't own an F-15 or a tactical nuke an infringement of our second amendment rights?

During the time it was written the equivalent of billionaires in those times could own fleets of armed vessels and train and equip their men with weapons, so it is arguable that the founding fathers would not put restrictions on F-15s.

In regards to nuclear weapons, this may fall outside of the scope of what the framers envisioned. The second amendment gave the public the ability to act as a military power against a tyrannical government. But nuclear weapons fall outside of the classification of normal arms, as even the militaries of foreign countries are prohibited by international regulations from building and possessing nuclear weapons beyond the countries which already had them, since their proliferation could cause nuclear winter and human extinction. The usage of nuclear weapons against human targets is also tantamount to genocide, even if used solely against military targets, due to atmospheric and land-based radioactive effect, would provoke an international response, and is extremely taboo.

Nuclear weapons are not necessary to wage a serious war, so this limitation is generally accepted by the militaries of the world, and semi-successful efforts have been underway for the eventual mutual denuclearization of existing nuclear powers.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 12:51:05 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline stack

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #601 on: July 20, 2022, 08:41:11 PM »
If by "dispose of it" you mean the 2nd ammendment, then your hypothetical is nonsensical because no branch of government can unilaterally change the constitution, so who cares?

By "dispose of" I meant disposing of the Fed because they became too tyrannical. Violating the second amendment might be one reason, yes.

Question along the same lines; Isn't the fact that a citizen can't own an F-15 or a tactical nuke an infringement of our second amendment rights?

During the time it was written the equivalent of billionaires in those times could own fleets of armed vessels and train and equip their men with weapons, so it is arguable that the founding fathers would not put restrictions on F-15s.

In regards to nuclear weapons, this may fall outside of the scope of what the framers envisioned. The second amendment gave the public the ability to act as a military power against a tyrannical government.

I'm guessing that the framers could probably have envisioned a scope for larger explosions, bombs, as they already had explosive-filled cannon balls, mortars and howitzers. I'm hard-pressed to think they could have envisioned flying contraptions like an apache helicopter or a Mach 2 capable F-15 with launchable stinger missiles.

The question remains, why can't a well-regulated militia, or any individual citizen, possess conventional arms like a FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank rocket or a sawed-off shot gun? Do you think citizens should be allowed to possess such arms?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #602 on: July 20, 2022, 09:47:55 PM »
I'm guessing that the framers could probably have envisioned a scope for larger explosions, bombs, as they already had explosive-filled cannon balls, mortars and howitzers. I'm hard-pressed to think they could have envisioned flying contraptions like an apache helicopter or a Mach 2 capable F-15 with launchable stinger missiles.

At that time there were people who were rich enough to own fleets of vessels with armaments to potentially bombard towns and cities from the coast and employ men with weapons to raze, burn, and rape cities. Yet they still allowed people to own fleets of armed vessels and employ men with weapons capable of extreme destruction.

The framers knew this. Piracy was a known thing and a problem. If they had gone to college they would have known there was also thousands of years of history on this. In Ancient Rome a number of famous figures had personally funded militaries. There were those who used their militaries for evil and got in various conflicts and trouble, and there were also those who used their militaries for defense and the noble eradication of bad apples.

So yes, if the framers allowed private individuals the tools to ravage entire towns it logically follows that they would have allowed them to own F-15s.

Quote
The question remains, why can't a well-regulated militia, or any individual citizen, possess conventional arms like a FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank rocket or a sawed-off shot gun? Do you think citizens should be allowed to possess such arms?

As long as proper precautions and training are made for safe storage and use, sure. People are already allowed rifles with long range scopes on them for sniper activities. An anti-tank rocket should be fair game as well.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2022, 04:58:58 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #603 on: July 20, 2022, 10:24:16 PM »
Tom seems to also fail at history.

If we offered such weapons to any American, as well as the proper training, the bad guys would get them.
Imagine if the evil democrats all banded to gether with scilocon valley, planned parenthood, and the Liberal Media to fund their own army of evil liberals, all with more hardware than the US government and capable of doing a lot of damage to small, rural towns?  The conservatives are all grass root and don't have the funding needed to purchase and train counter militia.

It would be a slaughter.  Just like Afghanistan.
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Offline markjo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #604 on: July 20, 2022, 10:55:22 PM »
The question remains, why can't a well-regulated militia, or any individual citizen, possess conventional arms like a FGM-148 Javelin anti-tank rocket or a sawed-off shot gun?
It should probably be pointed out that the "well regulated militia" that the 2nd amendment is referring to is now known as the National Guard.
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Offline stack

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #605 on: July 21, 2022, 01:33:07 AM »
I think it's broader than just the National Guard...

The text of the amendment, which refers to a “well regulated Militia,” suggests as much. As the Supreme Court correctly noted in District of Columbia v. Heller (2008), the militia of the founding era was the body of ordinary citizens capable of taking up arms to defend the nation.
https://constitutioncenter.org/interactive-constitution/interpretation/amendment-ii/interps/99

Then one must probably have to take a deep dive on what exactly, "to defend the nation" means.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #606 on: July 21, 2022, 01:42:00 AM »
The Militia Acts of 1792, 1795 and 1903 went on to refine that definition over the years.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Militia_Act_of_1903
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Offline crutonius

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #607 on: July 21, 2022, 03:08:25 PM »
If by "dispose of it" you mean the 2nd ammendment, then your hypothetical is nonsensical because no branch of government can unilaterally change the constitution, so who cares?

By "dispose of" I mean disposing of the Fed because they became too tyrannical. Violating the second amendment might be one reason, yes.

Question along the same lines; Isn't the fact that a citizen can't own an F-15 or a tactical nuke an infringement of our second amendment rights?

During the time it was written the equivalent of billionaires in those times could own fleets of armed vessels and train and equip their men with weapons, so it is arguable that the founding fathers would not put restrictions on F-15s.

In regards to nuclear weapons, this may fall outside of the scope of what the framers envisioned. The second amendment gave the public the ability to act as a military power against a tyrannical government. But nuclear weapons fall outside of the classification of normal arms, as even the militaries of foreign countries are prohibited by international regulations from building and possessing nuclear weapons beyond the countries which already had them, since their proliferation could cause nuclear winter and human extinction. The usage of nuclear weapons against human targets is also tantamount to genocide, even if used solely against military targets, due to atmospheric and land-based radioactive effect, would provoke an international response, and is extremely taboo.

Nuclear weapons are not necessary to wage a serious war, so this limitation is generally accepted by the militaries of the world, and semi-successful efforts have been underway for the eventual mutual denuclearization of existing nuclear powers.

That's a bit of a maximalist interpretation.

So in the US it's currently illegal to do pretty much anything with explosives without an explosives license.

Does this infringe on the second amendment?

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #608 on: August 23, 2022, 10:44:14 PM »
In the last couple of days, I've seen video of the off-duty officer who pinned down a child for supposedly stealing somone's bike (he was moving it to get at his own);

A trio of officers repeatedly punching an unarmed man, with one of the officers grabbing his head and repeatedly slamming it onto a concrete sidewalk;

And a pair of officers repeatedly punching a lady who was experiencing a mental health episode.

In the last month or so, there was the officer who shot Patrick Lyoya in the back of the head, and a host of other instances where unarmed citizens were shot in the back merely for running away.

Seriously out of control
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Offline honk

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #609 on: August 24, 2022, 04:00:00 AM »
We might be better able to offer an opinion on any of the incidents you're referring to if you posted a link to the footage in question, or even just to a news article talking about what happened.
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Offline stack

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #610 on: August 24, 2022, 06:26:50 AM »
Here's some of it:



The off-duty cop was charged with a couple of felonies.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #611 on: August 24, 2022, 09:10:38 PM »
We might be better able to offer an opinion on any of the incidents you're referring to if you posted a link to the footage in question, or even just to a news article talking about what happened.

A trio of officers repeatedly punching an unarmed man, with one of the officers grabbing his head and repeatedly slamming it onto a concrete sidewalk;



Officers punching lady with mental health problem



Patrick Lyoya shot in the back of the head, with officer on his back pinning him down



One in three people killed by US police were running away from traffic stops or other inconsequential matters.

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/jul/28/hunted-one-in-three-people-killed-by-us-police-were-fleeing-data-reveals
« Last Edit: August 24, 2022, 09:16:43 PM by Tumeni »
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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #612 on: August 29, 2022, 02:08:33 PM »
"US police continue to kill three people a day, with 2021 the deadliest year on record, making America a leader in law enforcement violence.

The persistent killings as well as stories of police abuse of Black people in spite of reforms has led to growing mainstream interest in a different response – the fight to defund, dismantle and abolish police. In their new book  ... 

Less than 5% of the 10 million arrests each year are for incidents classified as “violent crime”. Police typically arrive after harm has occurred and solve 20-25% of “serious crimes”. "


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2022/aug/29/police-defund-abolition-mariame-kaba-andrea-j-ritchie
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Online Roundy

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #613 on: August 29, 2022, 05:32:40 PM »
Defunding, dismantling, and abolishing the police would be such a stupid thing to do.
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Offline ohplease

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #614 on: August 29, 2022, 05:33:54 PM »
Such incidents while rare are indeed horrible and we need to strive to eliminate them.  To do that police need more training and that means more funding not less.  Also the US needs response agencies other than armed police.  If you find someone sleeping in your doorstep and do not want to deal with it yourself your only alternative at present is to call 911 and eventually an officer will show up.  But it likely would be more effective and less expensive for a couple of social works to arrive instead, and if they have difficulty with the person they can call in the cavalry.  The police should not be asked to do things they are not trained for and are over-equipped for.  Reporting a crime also does not need an armed officer to show up.  It would be interesting to see a breakdown of tasks the police are asked to perform and how many of them could be done or done better by other personnel.

The US also needs to reform our prisons such that they become institutions where where inmates can set their lives on a better course and that is far from the case at present.   Going to prison should be a very good indicator that you will not return, but the opposite is true at present.  This also will require more funding, not less.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #615 on: August 29, 2022, 09:32:08 PM »

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #616 on: August 29, 2022, 10:06:43 PM »
There'd be more money in the kitty if the taxpayer didn't have to fork out for all these pesky brutality settlements ...

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Offline ohplease

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #617 on: August 29, 2022, 10:55:22 PM »
video of traffic stop
That appears to be a textbook case of poor training in how to NOT escalate a situation.  Maybe the driver would have been defiant in any case, but she asks the officer why she is being requested to get out of the truck and instead of simply saying that your license is suspended so I can not let you proceed to drive, the officer just escalates with "because I am telling you to".  Likewise for any other officers that were present.  They need to be trained to intervene if one of their own is going down a path they know is wrong.  I'm not saying any of that is easy.  Particularly the "our side" Vs "their side" mentality, but it does seem doable.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #618 on: August 30, 2022, 05:02:47 AM »
video of traffic stop
That appears to be a textbook case of poor training in how to NOT escalate a situation.  Maybe the driver would have been defiant in any case, but she asks the officer why she is being requested to get out of the truck and instead of simply saying that your license is suspended so I can not let you proceed to drive, the officer just escalates with "because I am telling you to".  Likewise for any other officers that were present.  They need to be trained to intervene if one of their own is going down a path they know is wrong.  I'm not saying any of that is easy.  Particularly the "our side" Vs "their side" mentality, but it does seem doable.

You seem to miss something:
Do they want to be nice?
There are cops who love the power.  Who joined just for the ability to have this authority over others.  No amount of training is gonna fix that.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

Offline ohplease

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Re: Are the American police out of control?
« Reply #619 on: August 30, 2022, 07:19:53 AM »
video of traffic stop
That appears to be a textbook case of poor training in how to NOT escalate a situation.  Maybe the driver would have been defiant in any case, but she asks the officer why she is being requested to get out of the truck and instead of simply saying that your license is suspended so I can not let you proceed to drive, the officer just escalates with "because I am telling you to".  Likewise for any other officers that were present.  They need to be trained to intervene if one of their own is going down a path they know is wrong.  I'm not saying any of that is easy.  Particularly the "our side" Vs "their side" mentality, but it does seem doable.

You seem to miss something:
Do they want to be nice?
There are cops who love the power.  Who joined just for the ability to have this authority over others.  No amount of training is gonna fix that.
Sure, and those (I'd guess/hope relatively few folks) need to be weeded out.