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Offline markjo

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Baltimore riots
« on: April 28, 2015, 01:50:23 AM »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

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Offline Rushy

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Riot in Baltimore
« Reply #1 on: April 28, 2015, 03:35:22 AM »
Shamelessly stolen from Reddit:

Quote
6:20 PM local: State Emergency management has been activated. 3 hours have elapsed since inception of the violence.

Gov. Hogan: National Guard On Alert. Confirms earlier reports from 2 hours ago.

**** 6:30 PM local

CVS now on Fire! Riot control moving in en mass. Very Hot fire. Total loss.

Baltimore Fire Scanner very active: Now confirmed on scene after PD presence arrives. protester not leaving the area.

CVS closed all other stores in the area.

Outbreaks expected at Stadium and Downtown. Sheriff's office seems to be covering this area. Local PD is working the local neighborhoods.

Dispatcher states on scanner: "we have depleted our resources here"

Commanding officer says over radio to officers: "Move in, do what you have to do to stay safe"

Additional fire crews arrive at CVS. Combatants are beginning slightly to disperse. Mostly due to smoke.

6:45 PM. Woman attacked by demonstrators. As people pull her to safety they attack again. At Fulton, 2 blks south of Pennsylvania. Had to bring in PeaceKeeper Armored vehicle to rescue her. Condition unknown.

She was pulled from a vehicle by rioters.

North and Fulton is going to hell. WBAL live feed keeps cutting out to censor reality. Trying to follow on Tactical Channels but too much chatter. Will do my best to keep you up to date.

Not good... Local media is at loss for word and voices are cracking. Something bad just happened. perhaps the woman who was beaten? I try not to editorialize, but....sheeeze.

TV channel won't film or discuss what is happening in this area from the air or ground.

6:55 PM local:

I don't like what I just heard over the scanner.

Militant Rioters and Militant activist organization and militant religious members just got what they wanted. Fuck you, you fucking bastards!

Taking a mental break. Back soon.

Back. Sorry for the outburst:

Governor has activated National Guard in light of recent events. See above.

Media is calling on all the pastors and black community to de-escalate. Anything to not show video footage. Still not showing coverage at North and Fulton. Radios were quite for a short period of time.

Beauty Fair looted.

8:30 Press conference w/ Governor

National Guard front team in tactical gear arrived at ?? Harbor. They are loaded down heavy, ammo, camelbaks, MRE's and ready to stay. M4A1's or M-16 rifles and large packs.

7.15 PM Local

Crowd control tactics and Use of force now authorized.

Large Nation of Islam Presence near North Ave and Pennsylvania.

7.30 PM local:

Scanner chatter has gone pretty quite. Probably switched to tactical and inter-department channels that I don't have access to.

Media is reporting anything but what is happening on the street in real time. or perhaps they are having the same scanner info gathering problem I'm having.

Six "juveniles" accused by police of BEATING HOMELESS PERSON. 2 arrested.

MonDawMin mall being looted. Backing their cars up to the front door and loading crap. No police presence, free for all. (Personal Commentary: Remininent to LA Riots. I'm taking bets on when the fire starts)

*****UPDATE: Looters of liquor store knocked store owner unconscious.

Two more cars on fire at North Ave.

Something BIG happening at 2500 Pennsylvania for a "Single 13"

"BFD en route?"

Google brings up: Baltimore City Department of Social Services, Family Support Services

On fire.

Dispatch: "No FD trucks available".

Unknown Officer: "10-4, all we can do is sit and watch it then"

Another Redditor has reported that Rioters are cutting fire hoses so the FD can not fight fires. Unconfirmed.

County schools closed thru Sun. May 3rd.

University College now closed.

CVS continues tho be looted. Zero police presence. 30-minutes in.

Firefighter under attack. Retreated. Car continues to burn.

Baltimore county on the way.

Howard County on scene.

Pastor jamal speaking for Family member is calling for calm and peace. he is frustrated in the actions. Said to was "supposed to be tomorrow".

Utah and Franklin near Howard and "the market" is hot spot.

Rumored that individuals are using mass transit to get downtown. Buckle up!

Mayor has issued a curfew starting TOMORROW AT 10 PM!!!!

STARTS TOMORROW!

Local BPD is "totally deployed". Overwhelmed.

+++++++++++ 15 OFFICER INJURED SO FOR. 2 STILL IN HOSPITAL.

City Councilman says "media is focusing on the negative". "Media needs to make to clear" "Opportunists are coming from out of town"

+++++++++++++++

Councilman Scott "I'm pissed off!" "Cowards are ruining our city." " I'm going out there after this meeting" "Healing to do" "Take control"

Multiple references to 1968 riots.

Mayor is "proud of the people of the community that have come out"

15 OFFICERS INJURED. 2 STILL IN HOSPITAL.

Mall is now under police control.

NEMA waiting for Governor to speak at 8.30 PM with National Guard. 4,000 TROOPS COMING.

30,00 turned away from ball game do to safety concerns.

State of Emergency Declared. Curfew in effect TOMORROW.

Sky FULL of helicopters.

Stepped away for dinner. Back.

9.27 PM Massive fire at senior citizen apartment that was under construction. BFD is battling 4 different structure fires. Wind conditions are not wor

king in their favor. Also fighting 1 car fire.

3 alarm fire. All buildings are a total loss including their contents.

A local pastor has stated that the $16 million senior house was being built by a local church for local residents.

9.40 PM

City has requested 5,000 federal troops. Also requested additional Fire Squads from adjoining cities. BFD overwhelmed.

Governor: "Glad that Mayor finally called"..."We tried unsuccessfully to contact the Mayor"

UPDATE: Crips, Bloods and Black Guerrilla Family street gangs are currently meeting with Pastors and Clergy.

A church is now set on fire! Unknown location.

Intel warning: Gang attacks on white cops might spread...

no word from Obama or Lynch.

update:

CNN: Baltimore Rioters Threatening ‘Anybody… Who Was Not African-American’ [CNN CLAIMS TO HAVE VIDEO]

9.52 PM Local

Most streets are beginning to calm.

Unnamed police source: "The rioters are resting and eating diner..." "...expect further escalation as night sets in".

Police state they are relying on licence plates and video for future investigation and prosecution.

King: My Uncle MLK JR Would 'Be Heartbroken'...

Media helicopters seem to have stood down.

Streets are beginning to settle down.

Fires continue to burn.
10:18 Local TIme: WBAL just bloopered the words "The gunshots and"

no further intel yet.

Scanner reports of looting at Broadway and ??? street.

Crowds shouting "Black Power" on Pennsylvania Ave.

Scanner channels still very quite. May be using secure tactical channels.

John Hopkins University: "Remain sheltered in place".

Looting on Boston Street. Bar and Grill looted.

Burning Senior housing unit has collapsed. Embers have ignited several homes nearby. BFD says "INTENTIONAL".

Abandoned warehouse on fire.

WJZ 13 reports "Trail of destruction"

10:30 PM Local

TEN other Fire Companies arriving from neighboring towns/counties.

Police chase at Belvedere and York is over. Suspect 90 MPH. Car wrecked, hit pole. Suspect bailed. Foot pursuit.

Extensive damage.

11 pm tonight Family will be speaking.

Local Gov't to have press conference.

Yet another vehicle fire at Fulton and North Ave.

Aquarium events cancelled for tomorrow.

10:40 PM Local

Police briefing update at 11 PM local time.

Man seen walking north on Broadway with a gun.


Saddam Hussein

Re: Riot in Baltimore
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2015, 04:00:53 AM »
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2733.0

In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.

Offline Blanko

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2015, 04:11:38 AM »
Merged.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Riot in Baltimore
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2015, 09:08:23 AM »
http://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=2733.0

In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.
Agreed.  They are a disgrace to America and Humanity.  They do not deserve to live.
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Offline rooster

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2015, 04:13:37 PM »
I picked a good time to want to be a cop.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Riot in Baltimore
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2015, 05:32:12 PM »
In any case, fuck them.  I don't care what incident sparked these riots, how oppressed these assholes feel, or any of that crap.  They just need to be put down.
B-but racism :(

Also, Salon.com is on the case:



And (a copy of) the article linked in the tweet: https://archive.is/l3amc
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Saddam Hussein

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2015, 06:25:56 PM »
That's actually a cross-post from a kooky blog, rather than Salon's official editorial position or whatever, but they still shouldn't be giving nuts a bigger platform like this.  They got a lot of criticism when they published a goofy piece from an anti-vaxxer some years ago and eventually removed it.  Hopefully they'll do the same thing here.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2015, 06:32:29 PM »
That's actually a cross-post from a kooky blog, rather than Salon's official editorial position or whatever, but they still shouldn't be giving nuts a bigger platform like this.
Thanks for the source. However, I would argue that anything published on their platform becomes their official stance unless they explicitly state otherwise. This appears to be common practice in other media.

Also:

Quote
Black power, Queer power, power to Baltimore, and to all oppressed people who know what time it is.
It's 19:32. Fuck yeah.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #9 on: April 29, 2015, 12:42:44 AM »
In a shocking turn of events, when you get a bunch of angry people together rioting happens.

But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part. I can't imagine any good coming out of a continuing series of random, leaderless protests that turn violent as soon as some idiot shows up with a molotov cocktail. This isn't gonna be the last or biggest riot over police brutality and racism in the near future.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #10 on: April 29, 2015, 12:46:05 AM »
One totally bizarre result from the unrest in Baltimore is that the White Sox and Orioles will play a game tomorrow that is closed to the public.  Visual metaphor for the hollowness of the American Dream anyone?  Who's with me?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2015, 12:56:23 AM »
But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part.
And, hopefully, such a leader could convince them that there isn't a big bad white conspiracy out there to get them. Perhaps then they can focus on education and becoming productive members of society, eventually dispelling any myths that may haunt them today.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #12 on: April 29, 2015, 01:05:13 AM »
But seriously, I think the disenfranchised black youth needs an influential leader. Kind of like how Ghandi and King were able to stop their followers from rioting, for the most part.
And, hopefully, such a leader could convince them that there isn't a big bad white conspiracy out there to get them. Perhaps then they can focus on education and becoming productive members of society, eventually dispelling any myths that may haunt them today.

Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #13 on: April 29, 2015, 01:41:56 AM »
Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
My God, I hope the liberal arts college effect will slowly dissipate after you're done studying, as it does with most people. You've become insufferable.
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Offline Tau

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #14 on: April 29, 2015, 02:07:40 AM »
Even if that were true, it's not gonna happen. Even if it were true that racism doesn't exist anymore, having magically died out in the 70s,  and even if it were true that there isn't any systematic racism in place that is outside the control of any particular individual, anyone professing such beliefs is never gonna popular among blacks.
My God, I hope the liberal arts college effect will slowly dissipate after you're done studying, as it does with most people. You've become insufferable.

We have different opinions. It's not that big a deal. But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
That's how far the horizon is, not how far you can see.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #15 on: April 29, 2015, 02:10:02 AM »
But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
I do agree. To quote IRC:

<Blanko> MLK wouldn't be listened to in the modern day
<Blanko> He wouldn't be progressive enough
<pizaaplanet> Yeah, I honestly don't think a single figurehead could do anything about this
<Blanko> Expecting blacks to be respectable members of society is too much to ask nowadays
<pizaaplanet> We need progressives to stop inciting their violence
<Shawn> MLK was the most influential person in American black history
<Blanko> Yes
<Blanko> And now all of his work is being undone by liberals
<Shawn> Liberals are all about social justice
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Offline Tau

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #16 on: April 29, 2015, 02:40:01 AM »
But I'd hope we can at least agree that the chance of anyone who agrees with you on this becoming this hypothetical charismatic leader is approximately 0%
I do agree. To quote IRC:

<Blanko> MLK wouldn't be listened to in the modern day
<Blanko> He wouldn't be progressive enough
<pizaaplanet> Yeah, I honestly don't think a single figurehead could do anything about this
<Blanko> Expecting blacks to be respectable members of society is too much to ask nowadays
<pizaaplanet> We need progressives to stop inciting their violence

So if I'm reading this right, you're basically making Booker T. Washington's argument that blacks can only achieve true equality with whites by earning it, right?

I can get behind that, to some extent. But my issue with it is that not much happened during Washington's time. It was only when Du Bois took over and the black rights movement became more militant that change started happening. It might be true that without the progress Washington made Du Bois and the NAACP never would have been successful, but I really don't think Washington's perspective alone is enough to change anything.

Here's the way I think about race issues. At this point, it's more socio-economic than anything else. I'm sure we can all agree on that. There are large clusters of impoverished people in America, and those clusters are largely african american just because that's how it's always been. Kids in the inner cities are given worse educations and end up with learned helplessness, which (among various other factors) contributes to a self-perpetuating system of racial inequality. I think we agree on that bit (I hope we do, because as far as I can tell the only other explanations are 'secret conspiracy of world-controlling racists' and 'blacks are just inherently inferior', both of which are silly arguments).

Obviously poor people in the inner city are gonna be more violent and have higher rates of crime and substance abuse than over groups. Since poor people in the inner city are largely black, that translates to black populations having those same issues. That, in turn, leads to inherent biases and racist inclinations among both the the general population and (probably even more so) law enforcement. That translates to police discrimination against blacks, which leads to a) even more learned helplessness, which is most of the problem in the first place, and b) more police brutality toward blacks.

The research I've read on the issue suggests that police are faster to consider blacks threats, and faster to pull the trigger on them. That's a problem. (source). However, there's also evidence that in certain situations police will actually hesitate to pull the trigger on a minority due to fear of repurcussions (source). The second source is from after Ferguson and found that, although EEGs record more severe and immediate threat responses in simulations involving an african american, they hesitated slightly (22 ms) longer to shoot out of fear of consequences.

The above suggests that a) police discrimination is part of the problem, b) police discrimination is fixable, and c) the current round of riots and protests is probably doing a lot to change the behaviors of police officers.

Pizza: what part of that opinion makes me insufferable? Or was that just my tone? Anyway, do you agree? I know you disagree that police discrimination is real, but at what point do our opinions start diverging?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #17 on: April 29, 2015, 03:32:19 AM »
So if I'm reading this right, you're basically making Booker T. Washington's argument that blacks can only achieve true equality with whites by earning it, right?
Close enough. I think that true equality can only be achieved if everyone works towards it, but I do think the majority of the work needs to be done by blacks. Not because it's just, not because it's righteous, but because it's the kind of work that nobody else can really do.

Through the example of Black British people, I'd like to say that I do not believe there is anything about black people that makes them inherently less capable. A Black British person is, for all intents and purposes, a British person whose skin happens to be black. They are just as educated, productive, and integrated into society as any other person might be.

Now, from my perspective, the three main issues African Americans need to tackle (and can mostly only do so themselves, although they can be helped) are education, poverty, and integration with the rest of American society. I'll try to elaborate on these to the best of my ability, bearing in mind that I've only spent a grand total of maybe half a year in America over multiple visits. A vast majority of what I'm going to say here is based on my personal experiences with African Americans, which may be incomplete and non-representative.

Education - Due to historical reasons (which are undeniably the fault of now-dead white people) there is a very large contingent of African American families without a good education. Of course, this is a difficult trend to overcome. My father was the first person to obtain higher education in what was previously a working class family, and I know he's had it tough. I can only imagine how much harder it must be for someone with so much history stacked against them. However, I don't believe there is much we can do to help them unless they go through the same motions everyone else trying to obtain an education goes through. If we make their degrees easier, they'll be less valuable. If we pay them to go to college, the system will be exploited. The process of educating an entire demographic is going to be extremely long and arduous, but it's already happening. What we need to do is ensure that these people are treated fairly - they should receive support, but only when this support is not unfair. Obviously, they should also not be discriminated against.

Productivity - A lot of this is related to education, but there are a few facets that this doesn't touch on. While this image may be somewhat controversial, I feel it touches on the subject quite well.



Unfortunately, the current situation means that the most vocal group of African Americans, the group that's most easily recognised and identified with the ethnicity as a whole, is a bunch of violent rioters demolishing each other's businesses, burning down towns, and looting stores. This is an enormous shame and a very harmful thing for everyone, regardless of race. It creates a divide, and it encourages racist thoughts even in those who may have previously not experienced them. Instead of glorifying the rioters and violence, I would like to encourage progressives to promote the rational black people. There have been so many wonderful examples of those recently. When I was watching the Ferguson riots live, there was this one guy who stood in front of the crowd as it was marching towards some restaurant, and he outright shouted something along the lines of "Don't touch this shit. This here is a good business, they have nothing to do with this. Leave them alone." The Baltimore riots had the angry mother who gave his son a piece of her mind when he decided to participate in the violent activities:



and the man who tried dividing the rioters from the police shouting "don't give them a reason":

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/do-not-give-them-a-reason-baltimore-man-divides-police-and-rioters-in-hope-of-avoiding-violence-10208720.html

Those are great examples of mature, productive members of society who understand how basic shit works. Those are the people who should be celebrated in this crisis. Not the crazed people jumping in through the window of a burning store and running away with stolen goods, and not the violent mobs kicking the shit out of police cars because they hate "The Man" so much.

We cannot judge these people any differently than we would white people. If they want an equal society, they can't have that excuse.



Integration - The African Americans feel an extremely strong sense of pride in their national identity. While that's fine in principle, it blinds them and stops many of them from being able to accept themselves as part of a diverse nation. In my (limited, but probably above-average) experience of various countries, I have never seen an ethnic group as rigidly divided from the country at large as African Americans. They refuse to speak the same language as others, they refuse to share their culture with others, and they demand special rights from others. This "us and them" mentality is, and always will be, an immediate barrier to equality, unless it is entirely abolished.

I can get behind that, to some extent. But my issue with it is that not much happened during Washington's time. It was only when Du Bois took over and the black rights movement became more militant that change started happening. It might be true that without the progress Washington made Du Bois and the NAACP never would have been successful, but I really don't think Washington's perspective alone is enough to change anything.
Washington's approach is the only way to achieve actual equality. More militant actions took us where we are now - to the very brink of a class war. Yes, the alternative is slow and arduous, but it's the only real option we have.

Here's the way I think about race issues. At this point, it's more socio-economic than anything else. I'm sure we can all agree on that. There are large clusters of impoverished people in America, and those clusters are largely african american just because that's how it's always been. Kids in the inner cities are given worse educations and end up with learned helplessness, which (among various other factors) contributes to a self-perpetuating system of racial inequality.
Absolutely. That's exactly what it is, in my opinion.

Obviously poor people in the inner city are gonna be more violent and have higher rates of crime and substance abuse than over groups. Since poor people in the inner city are largely black, that translates to black populations having those same issues. That, in turn, leads to inherent biases and racist inclinations among both the the general population and (probably even more so) law enforcement. That translates to police discrimination against blacks, which leads to a) even more learned helplessness, which is most of the problem in the first place, and b) more police brutality toward blacks.
Yup. Still with you.

The research I've read on the issue suggests that police are faster to consider blacks threats, and faster to pull the trigger on them. That's a problem. (source). However, there's also evidence that in certain situations police will actually hesitate to pull the trigger on a minority due to fear of repurcussions (source). The second source is from after Ferguson and found that, although EEGs record more severe and immediate threat responses in simulations involving an african american, they hesitated slightly (22 ms) longer to shoot out of fear of consequences.

The above suggests that a) police discrimination is part of the problem, b) police discrimination is fixable, and
That's certainly a problem, but I don't think it can be tackled directly. It's a result of more deeply rooted issues. We can't stop people from wondering about whether or not black people are more likely to be criminals when they currently factually more often engage in criminal activity.

c) the current round of riots and protests is probably doing a lot to change the behaviors of police officers.
Yes, for the worse. I think Blanko (in my IRC quote) in spot-on: any progress that has been made towards ensuring equality between the races is currently being undone by black rioters and the liberal inciters of violence.

Pizza: what part of that opinion makes me insufferable? Or was that just my tone?
Part of it is your tone (but I can't fault you for that - my tone is much worse, and I take an adjustment for that), but most of it is how dogmatic you are about your views. You seem to state as a matter of fact that African Americans currently suffer from enormous amounts of institutionalised racism, and that they're fighting for equality and acknowledgement.

However, after a careful consideration of the facts, it seems very clear that the riots are usually motivated by either personal gain or simple frustration with the quality of the rioters' lives, and usually have very little to do with the alleged subject matter. The Ferguson riots are the most obvious examples of that. Time and time again it has now been proved that Wilson was completely in the right. There's forensic evidence, there's the DoJ report, etc., etc. But none of that matters to the groups most commonly associated with the things you say.

Anyway, do you agree? I know you disagree that police discrimination is real, but at what point do our opinions start diverging?
I agree that there are some racist issues in America. I could, with extreme caution, consider the possibility that some of it is down to trace amounts of institutionalised racism still lurking somewhere within the system. I don't think that's the case, but I could entertain that thought.

You go much, much deeper than that, and many of the views you state come across as the "secret conspiracy of world-controlling racists" scenario you made fun of in your post. To me, it seems that what we disagree on is how systemic the problem is, and how to solve it. To me, the problem is not systemic, and can only be solved through careful evolution of society. To you (as far as I can see), the problem is systemic, and should be solved through a revolution in society.
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Saddam Hussein

Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #18 on: April 29, 2015, 03:57:32 AM »
Systemic or institutionalized racism can be as simple as public services in minority communities being shitty and underfunded due to the lower incomes of their residents, police aiming more of their patrols at minority communities due to the higher crime rates there, or lower zoning costs in minority communities leading to typical NIMBY developments usually ending up in their backyards.  It doesn't mean that there's a group of evil Nazis running the world ready to kick puppies in their eternal quest to keep the black man down, or that everyone who perpetuates this is themselves an evil Nazi with a deep-seated hatred of black people.  What it does mean is that it's a very complicated issue with dozens of factors (some historical, some not) playing into it, and there are no clear-cut, black-and-white solutions to any of it.  It's something that will take many years and many different approaches to properly rectify (if it even can be rectified), and it's not something that some guy sitting at his computer totally has all figured out and that everyone else just needs to listen as God's words flow from his lips.

(This isn't directed at anyone in particular.  I'm just pointing out that there are some shades of gray here.)

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Baltimore riots
« Reply #19 on: April 29, 2015, 04:12:58 AM »
it's not something that some guy sitting at his computer totally has all figured out and that everyone else just needs to listen as God's words flow from his lips.
Thank you for stating the obvious. Now, let's go back to the actual discussion, bearing in mind that it is, indeed, a discussion and nothing else.
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