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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #20 on: January 15, 2021, 11:56:06 PM »

Trump CANNOT be tried as a civilian!
Quote from: https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/534269-congress-broke-two-records-in-impeachment-of-donald-trump
Fourth, by trying to put Trump on trial in the Senate after he leaves office, the House violated the provision that allows Congress to remove a sitting president and, only if the Senate decides to remove him by a vote, could it add the sanction for a future disbarment from running for office. Congress has no authority over any president once he leaves office. If Congress had the power to impeach a private citizen to prevent him from running in the future, it could claim jurisdiction over millions of Americans eligible to be candidates for president in 2024. This would be a perilous interpretation of the Constitution which would allow the party in control of Congress to impeach a popular candidate and preclude him from running.
Written by HOUSE DEMOCRAT Alan DERSHOWITZ!
Err... are you SURE?
From what I found, Alan Dershowitz is not a house democrat.  He's a former professor of law, writing an opinion piece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz
He is part of the Democratic party, however.

Quote
2. He can be charged with inciting a riot/sedition.  While you can technically say "he didn't tell them to perform these actions" I'm not sure that matters.  The "mob boss" defense doesn't work.  An implied meaning is still a meaning even if you use non-bad words.  Like "Pay us some protection and we'll ensure this place is safe." Its technically not a "Pay us or we'll break things" but thats strongly implied.

Now I suggest you stop this rebellion before it comes to bite you in the ass.
Read the rest of the same article I just linked you to.

Don't just tell me I'm wrong without a source. You are wrong on both counts.
Your sourse is an opinion piece.  Me, I'm gonna just go with the people who are literally making the laws, thanks.
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #21 on: January 16, 2021, 05:26:07 PM »

Trump CANNOT be tried as a civilian!
Quote from: https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/534269-congress-broke-two-records-in-impeachment-of-donald-trump
Fourth, by trying to put Trump on trial in the Senate after he leaves office, the House violated the provision that allows Congress to remove a sitting president and, only if the Senate decides to remove him by a vote, could it add the sanction for a future disbarment from running for office. Congress has no authority over any president once he leaves office. If Congress had the power to impeach a private citizen to prevent him from running in the future, it could claim jurisdiction over millions of Americans eligible to be candidates for president in 2024. This would be a perilous interpretation of the Constitution which would allow the party in control of Congress to impeach a popular candidate and preclude him from running.
Written by HOUSE DEMOCRAT Alan DERSHOWITZ!
Err... are you SURE?
From what I found, Alan Dershowitz is not a house democrat.  He's a former professor of law, writing an opinion piece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz
He is part of the Democratic party, however.

Yeah, I was in a rush because I had to go to work. I meant a card carrying democrat but I rushed the post. It does not take away from the fact that if Donald Trump refuses to defend himself, congress and the senate can't do squat because they will have no jurisdiction over him as a civilian. His best defence is no defence. Annnnnnnnnnd who is his defence lawyer? ... Oh, its Alan Dershowitz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#Donald_Trump_(2020)

I wonder if TheDonald will bother attending a kangaroo court that has no jurisdiction over him? Impeachment is just a Democrat wet dream. They should move on and start concentrating on what to do about the reanimated corpse that they have nominated as their leader.
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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #22 on: January 16, 2021, 08:01:41 PM »
turnip is still in office. the impeachment has already happened. you're simply confused about how this process works and what words mean.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #23 on: January 16, 2021, 08:27:42 PM »
turnip is still in office. the impeachment has already happened. you're simply confused about how this process works and what words mean.

The senate trial will be AFTER he is out of office and a civilian. He therefore just needs to not attend to not be charged. Why is this hard for people to understand? The senate has no jurisdiction over civilians.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #24 on: January 16, 2021, 08:44:13 PM »
turnip is still in office. the impeachment has already happened. you're simply confused about how this process works and what words mean.

The senate trial will be AFTER he is out of office and a civilian. He therefore just needs to not attend to not be charged. Why is this hard for people to understand?

The trial isn’t about what Trump did as a private citizen (POTUS is a civilian), the trial is about what he was impeached for.  As Trump receives considerable government benefit as an ex-president, I am sure it is quite sound to try him for his impeachment. At the end of the day, none of us really knows, but there are lawyers who agree on both sides. It will be extremely difficult to get 17 GOP senate votes to convict as well, so I doubt this legal principle will be tested.
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Offline jimster

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #25 on: January 16, 2021, 08:50:05 PM »
Tom Bishop:

My prediction is based on what they said in videos, interviews, tweets, etc. I do admit that none of them gave specific details, but they said they are committed to stopping Biden after demonstrating what they would do Jan 6. "We'll be back and we're bringing guns". Are you saying no one has any reason to believe there will be trouble Jan 20? They said what they intend, police and political leaders are preparing for it, it makes sense per their intention and demonstrated methods. It is at the very least a reasonable expectation.

The flat earth conspiracy theories hurt me personally. I lived at Edwards AFB and Lancaster CA, full of astronauts and scientists that were the parents of my friends and my heroes. FE makes them stupid or liar, including my father specifically. There are many examples, including those who have been led to believe Trump won and will be facing jail time because of what they did. FE has broken friendships, marriages, and de-culting out of FE is apparently a painful experience for at least one former FE I saw interviewed. Sandy Hook parents have talked about how that conspiracy theory has hurt them, from bringing the experience back constantly, to calling them liars to death threats. Well meaning people are going to jail because of ignorance and gullibillty.

You did give the only answer to my original question, but that answer is puzzling. If Trump is going to invoke Insurrection act and declare martial law (my pillow guy), How did storming the capitol help? Trump could do that (or fail at attempt) with or without the storming. So you came closest to answering, but not satisfying.

All the interviews I saw and things said by the stormers indicated they expected to go in, exert force and then politics would be changed and they would go back to their lives as if nothing would happen. What I wanted to know is what happens after they hang Mike Pence? The details, like "Trump pardons them and the rest of the legislature either realizes Trumpers were right all along or is terrorized into acquiescence", or ???

The entertainment for me is to have FEs explain the problems with their "models" with ever more ridiculous theories. At its best, it creates completely un-selfconscious stand up comedy.



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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #26 on: January 16, 2021, 09:47:24 PM »
Quote from: jimster
My prediction is based on what they said in videos, interviews, tweets, etc. I do admit that none of them gave specific details, but they said they are committed to stopping Biden after demonstrating what they would do Jan 6. "We'll be back and we're bringing guns". Are you saying no one has any reason to believe there will be trouble Jan 20? They said what they intend, police and political leaders are preparing for it, it makes sense per their intention and demonstrated methods. It is at the very least a reasonable expectation.

I haven't seen evidence that that there is mass planning of protests on Jan 17 or Jan 20.

TheDonald hasn't either -

https://www.thedailyfodder.com/2021/01/happening-now-largest-trump-group-in.html

https://thedonald.win/p/11S0NdA5KB/a-note-on-protests/

https://thedonald.win/p/11S0gMhDoT/when-the-fbi-and-libs-say-trump-/c/

You would think that the calls for mass protest would have spread to the largest Trump site on the internet if tens of thousands of people were organizing mass protests.

Quote from: jimster
You did give the only answer to my original question, but that answer is puzzling. If Trump is going to invoke Insurrection act and declare martial law (my pillow guy), How did storming the capitol help? Trump could do that (or fail at attempt) with or without the storming. So you came closest to answering, but not satisfying.

What makes you think that Trump asked anyone to storm the Capitol? He said to be peaceful at the Capitol.

Here is the transcript: https://www.usnews.com/news/politics/articles/2021-01-13/transcript-of-trumps-speech-at-rally-before-us-capitol-riot

Trump says in that: "I know that everyone here will soon be marching over to the Capitol building to peacefully and patriotically make your voices heard."

Quote from: jimster
The flat earth conspiracy theories hurt me personally. I lived at Edwards AFB and Lancaster CA, full of astronauts and scientists that were the parents of my friends and my heroes. FE makes them stupid or liar, including my father specifically.

Sounds like you should ask your father to pay more attention and stop lying.

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Offline stack

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #27 on: January 16, 2021, 11:03:23 PM »
Quote from: jimster
My prediction is based on what they said in videos, interviews, tweets, etc. I do admit that none of them gave specific details, but they said they are committed to stopping Biden after demonstrating what they would do Jan 6. "We'll be back and we're bringing guns". Are you saying no one has any reason to believe there will be trouble Jan 20? They said what they intend, police and political leaders are preparing for it, it makes sense per their intention and demonstrated methods. It is at the very least a reasonable expectation.

I haven't seen evidence that that there is mass planning of protests on Jan 17 or Jan 20.

TheDonald hasn't either -

https://www.thedailyfodder.com/2021/01/happening-now-largest-trump-group-in.html

https://thedonald.win/p/11S0NdA5KB/a-note-on-protests/

https://thedonald.win/p/11S0gMhDoT/when-the-fbi-and-libs-say-trump-/c/

You would think that the calls for mass protest would have spread to the largest Trump site on the internet if tens of thousands of people were organizing mass protests.

Ahead of Biden inauguration, FBI Director Wray warns of 'concerning online chatter'
FBI Director Christopher Wray warned Thursday that authorities are monitoring calls for "potential armed protests" in Washington D.C. and state capitols around the country ahead of President-elect Joe Biden’s inauguration on Jan. 20.

Top national security officials detailed their preparations for the inauguration at a briefing with Vice President Mike Pence. Wray said the FBI was "seeing an extensive amount of concerning online chatter" ahead of the event, which will take place just two weeks after supporters of President Trump stormed the U.S. Capitol in an unprecedented security breach.

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/biden-inauguration-fbi-director-wray-warns-of-concerning-online-chatter

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #28 on: January 17, 2021, 12:04:30 AM »
Yeah but Tom finds it hard to believe. Checkmate, atheists.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #29 on: January 17, 2021, 07:08:01 AM »

Trump CANNOT be tried as a civilian!
Quote from: https://thehill.com/opinion/judiciary/534269-congress-broke-two-records-in-impeachment-of-donald-trump
Fourth, by trying to put Trump on trial in the Senate after he leaves office, the House violated the provision that allows Congress to remove a sitting president and, only if the Senate decides to remove him by a vote, could it add the sanction for a future disbarment from running for office. Congress has no authority over any president once he leaves office. If Congress had the power to impeach a private citizen to prevent him from running in the future, it could claim jurisdiction over millions of Americans eligible to be candidates for president in 2024. This would be a perilous interpretation of the Constitution which would allow the party in control of Congress to impeach a popular candidate and preclude him from running.
Written by HOUSE DEMOCRAT Alan DERSHOWITZ!
Err... are you SURE?
From what I found, Alan Dershowitz is not a house democrat.  He's a former professor of law, writing an opinion piece.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz
He is part of the Democratic party, however.

Yeah, I was in a rush because I had to go to work. I meant a card carrying democrat but I rushed the post. It does not take away from the fact that if Donald Trump refuses to defend himself, congress and the senate can't do squat because they will have no jurisdiction over him as a civilian. His best defence is no defence. Annnnnnnnnnd who is his defence lawyer? ... Oh, its Alan Dershowitz. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Dershowitz#Donald_Trump_(2020)

I wonder if TheDonald will bother attending a kangaroo court that has no jurisdiction over him? Impeachment is just a Democrat wet dream. They should move on and start concentrating on what to do about the reanimated corpse that they have nominated as their leader.

And you'd be wrong.  Again.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2021-01-14/trump-struggles-to-build-legal-team-as-impeachment-trial-nears

Quote
Alan Dershowitz, a professor emeritus at Harvard Law School, also defended Trump the first time around. He isn’t planning to represent the president now, but added that Trump’s remarks to protesters are protected under the First Amendment and that the Constitution doesn’t allow an impeachment trial after a president has left office.


Secondly, congress has power over private citizens.  They can hold you in contempt of congress which can invole prison time as punishment.  Ask William P. MacCracken, Jr.

They can also direct the DOJ to investigate.

The constitution doesn't mention anything about an impeachment trial needing to take place during an elected officials time in office.  It says...

Quote
Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.

So basicaly they can only remove him and bar him from office.  But afterwards, he can be charged and tried for his crimes in a court.  Which is probably going to weigh heavy on what congress decided.

If you know of a section that states they can't have a trial after he leaves office, please quote it here.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #30 on: January 17, 2021, 12:03:34 PM »
Again Lord Dave, you are talking with authority over things you do not know.

Literally no one knows because there is no precedent. But let me give you the tl;dr of 6 of the best lawyers in the US.

Source ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/06/can-former-presidents-be-impeached/

Wittington’s verdict: Difficult, but plausible.
Amar’s verdict: Not only possible — possibly necessary at times.
Krent’s verdict: Not possible, would be overkill.
Garber’s verdict: Not possible.
Somin’s verdict: Maybe, but the courts would have to give guidance.
Bowman’s verdict: Unknowable, but “not a crazy claim.”

On balance ... I don't think it is very likely. I also see it as an own goal for the Dems. It will be used against them next time they find themselves with a minority in the house and you might also see them going after dead presidents ... first using the old "but he encouraged slavery" type of argument and then moving into the Reagans, Clintons, Bushes etc to erase their legacies. It's a dreadful policy to chase an ex-President. Problem is, you have that deranged old cunt Pelosi who is a nasty nasty piece of work and will piss on the constitution in an instant if it means she can settle a personal vendetta. I think the US will regret voting in this shower. As much as there was a lot of noise made about Trump, Biden is going to be far more problematic for average Americans. He's already planning to give away all your jobs and put you all on a ubi under the guise of coronavirus.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #31 on: January 17, 2021, 12:35:32 PM »
Again Lord Dave, you are talking with authority over things you do not know.

Literally no one knows because there is no precedent. But let me give you the tl;dr of 6 of the best lawyers in the US.

But you were just saying it wasn’t allowed.

Quote
I wonder if TheDonald will bother attending a kangaroo court that has no jurisdiction over him?

Maybe you should have a little humility, instead of telling Dave he doesn’t know?

Quote
Source ... https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2019/12/06/can-former-presidents-be-impeached/

Wittington’s verdict: Difficult, but plausible.
Amar’s verdict: Not only possible — possibly necessary at times.
Krent’s verdict: Not possible, would be overkill.
Garber’s verdict: Not possible.
Somin’s verdict: Maybe, but the courts would have to give guidance.
Bowman’s verdict: Unknowable, but “not a crazy claim.”

On balance ... I don't think it is very likely. I also see it as an own goal for the Dems. It will be used against them next time they find themselves with a minority in the house and you might also see them going after dead presidents ... first using the old "but he encouraged slavery" type of argument and then moving into the Reagans, Clintons, Bushes etc to erase their legacies. It's a dreadful policy to chase an ex-President. Problem is, you have that deranged old cunt Pelosi who is a nasty nasty piece of work and will piss on the constitution in an instant if it means she can settle a personal vendetta. I think the US will regret voting in this shower. As much as there was a lot of noise made about Trump, Biden is going to be far more problematic for average Americans. He's already planning to give away all your jobs and put you all on a ubi under the guise of coronavirus.

Articles of impeachment were passed while Trump is in office. That is materially different than trying to impeach Reagan 30 years later.
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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #32 on: January 17, 2021, 01:11:15 PM »
Maybe you should have a little humility, instead of telling Dave he doesn’t know?
Don't be ridiculous.

Articles of impeachment were passed while Trump is in office. That is materially different than trying to impeach Reagan 30 years later.
It isn't. They are both civilian status. If you are going to start making laws up as you are going along ... then you can make up whatever you like. There is no precedent for impeaching dead presidents either. You could equally test the law here too. The sensible choice is to leave this alone ... but they won't.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #33 on: January 17, 2021, 01:25:24 PM »
Maybe you should have a little humility, instead of telling Dave he doesn’t know?
Don't be ridiculous.

Articles of impeachment were passed while Trump is in office. That is materially different than trying to impeach Reagan 30 years later.
It isn't. They are both civilian status. If you are going to start making laws up as you are going along ... then you can make up whatever you like. There is no precedent for impeaching dead presidents either. You could equally test the law here too. The sensible choice is to leave this alone ... but they won't.

Trump was impeached while in office, you keep acting as if that hasn’t happened. If you are going to ignore relevant parts of what I write, then perhaps don’t waste your time responding. The sensible choice is to leave this alone... but you won’t.

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #34 on: January 17, 2021, 02:03:40 PM »
The Senate acquitted Trump. So impeached or not, he was not disqualified from holding office. All it did was show that the Dems didn't like him and had greater numbers in Congress. That is literally all it showed.

Again congress move for impeachment. But again, they need a senate to convict him. And again, the senate might not, and not because they don't want to, but because they don't have the jurisdiction to judge him after he is out of office. You know what I am saying is factually correct. Why do you keep squealing "But Trump will be impeached!"?

It is you that is ignoring the relevant parts. That this is Democrat theatre and unlikely to have any effect at all. But its not about that is it? Biden was a shit candidate. No one voted for Biden. They voted against Trump. And so Biden's first policy is to go after Trump. It's a crowd pleaser. It isn't serious. It's like the manifesto promise "Build a wall". About as likely to get done.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #35 on: January 17, 2021, 02:18:21 PM »
The Senate acquitted Trump. So impeached or not, he was not disqualified from holding office. All it did was show that the Dems didn't like him and had greater numbers in Congress. That is literally all it showed.

Again congress move for impeachment. But again, they need a senate to convict him. And again, the senate might not, and not because they don't want to, but because they don't have the jurisdiction to judge him after he is out of office. You know what I am saying is factually correct. Why do you keep squealing "But Trump will be impeached!"?

It is you that is ignoring the relevant parts. That this is Democrat theatre and unlikely to have any effect at all. But its not about that is it? Biden was a shit candidate. No one voted for Biden. They voted against Trump. And so Biden's first policy is to go after Trump. It's a crowd pleaser. It isn't serious. It's like the manifesto promise "Build a wall". About as likely to get done.

Oh maybe you just don’t understand the process. So removing a president from office in this way has two milestones that must be met consecutively: impeachment and conviction. Impeachment has already happened. This is the second time he has been impeached (a record!) So the question of whether or not he can be impeached after leaving office is irrelevant to this matter, it’s already happened. Whether or not he can be convicted is the question of some debate, but as Dave pointed out, there doesn’t appear to be an explicit barrier to his conviction and considering the multi-million dollar benefit he will receive as an ex-president it would seem sound to be able to pursue matters that were begun during his tenure. I don’t know if I’m right, but I hope the Senate convicts and I get to find out because you know Trump will litigate the fuck out of this whether he has a case or not.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #36 on: January 17, 2021, 05:28:41 PM »
As with all things the constitution didn't plan for, if he is convicted, it will be challenged and the courts will decide and a new precident will be made.

And congress can do it.  They can strip him of his pension and right to hold office.   Whether it sticks is another matter. 
If you are going to DebOOonK an expert then you have to at least provide a source with credentials of equal or greater relevance. Even then, it merely shows that some experts disagree with each other.

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Offline stack

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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #37 on: January 17, 2021, 05:46:23 PM »
As with all things the constitution didn't plan for, if he is convicted, it will be challenged and the courts will decide and a new precident will be made.

And congress can do it.  They can strip him of his pension and right to hold office.   Whether it sticks is another matter.

Precisely. This "no precedent" argument has zero bearing as to whether there will be a trial or not in the Senate. The way things would go down if convicted in the Senate is exactly how you described. It would happen, litigation ensues, appeals. Probably reaches SCOTUS. SCOTUS acts/doesn't act; Rules, sets precedent - Or kicks it back down to the previous Federal District Court ruling, essentially sets precedent.

I guess the only alternative route would be that somehow someone files something right now to try and stop it and courts somehow decide in the next week whether it's a go/no go. Seems unlikely.

Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #38 on: January 17, 2021, 05:48:26 PM »
Again congress move for impeachment. But again, they need a senate to convict him. And again, the senate might not, and not because they don't want to, but because they don't have the jurisdiction to judge him after he is out of office. You know what I am saying is factually correct.
Why do you keep stating this so definitely when you literally just pasted a load of links to various sources which has no real consensus.
It’s never happened so we just don’t know whether it can or what it would mean.
Gut feel is they won’t convict anyway so it’s all moot.
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Re: What did they think would be the end of the story?
« Reply #39 on: January 17, 2021, 08:57:30 PM »
The left has done everything Trump and his supporters have done: propagate wild conspiracy theories (rUsSiAn cOlLuSiOn), protest and cause violence, whip up supporters into frenzies on Twitter, they both have militant terrorist factions, they both have constituents who subscribe to hateful, fundamentalist views. The difference is that the left are hailed as mostly peaceful civil rights heroes and largely get away with their bullshit. At least, social media giants and the MSM let them get away with it. If you don't see it, you're probably neck deep in delusion and Twitter blue checkmark propaganda.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2021, 09:01:07 PM by Fortuna »
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