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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 12, 2023, 06:49:54 PM »

Neither people pushing off each other or shopping carts rolling in a fucking parking lot are analogous to the operation of a rocket.

You are simply gaslighting in your own OP.

“They’re not analogous” then explain why. They really are, and everyone understands this but you.

A cart pushing off a cart is factually operating on the same principle as a rocket pushing off its propellant. Has nothing to do with plumes. If they’re not operating off the same principle, please provide in-depth reasoning and citations.

Gases push on the inside of the rocket pushing it forward, and are expelled backwards. It’s that simple.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 12, 2023, 06:42:11 AM »

Your example is irrelevant to the op and not analogous to the operation of a rocket.

It is therefore gaslighting bullshit.

Before we go further, you’re dead serious right? Like you actually think this? I showed study material that directly contradicts what you claimed. Two objects exerting a force upon each other is clearly called a closed system.
Two carts pushing on each other is a closed system.
Two people pushing on each other is a closed system.
Exploding fuel and rocket pushing on each other is a closed system.
It is, in fact, analogous. This isn’t my opinion.

I’m not sure what properties of fuel and rockets makes the system immune to conservation of momentum.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 12, 2023, 04:39:38 AM »

You wrote a bunch of crap. Two people pushing off of each other is not an example of a closed system, period.

One single person is not a closed system, let alone two people.

You not *getting it* isn’t my problem. I will continue to engage because I believe you’re arguing in good faith.

Two shopping carts that were left in the parking lot are rolling towards each other. The two shopping carts collide. Do the two shopping carts form an open momentum system or a closed momentum system?

Step 1: Determine if there are any external forces acting on the momentum system.

There are no external forces acting on the system. The two shopping carts apply forces to each other, but nothing outside of the system applies a force.

Step 2: Identify the system as open or closed.

An open system will have external forces acting on it.
A closed system will have no external forces acting on it.
Since the shopping carts do not have any external forces acting on them when they collide, this is an example of a closed momentum system.

https://study.com/skill/learn/identifying-open-closed-momentum-systems-explanation.html

Trying to claim a pair of people are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Trying to claim a pair of shopping carts are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Literally has nothing to do with atmosphere.
Two shopping carts exert a force on one another. Two people exert a force on one another. Exploding fuel and rocket exert a force on one another.

Do explain how it’s “irrelevant” and “gaslighting bullshit”. I was kind of hoping for a more intelligent response, but that kind of non-response is perfectly fine with me.

I included a source describing how two X’s pushing each other is a closed system. Please include a source that states otherwise.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 12, 2023, 03:54:36 AM »

You wrote a bunch of crap. Two people pushing off of each other is not an example of a closed system, period.

One single person is not a closed system, let alone two people.

You not *getting it* isn’t my problem. I will continue to engage because I believe you’re arguing in good faith.

Two shopping carts that were left in the parking lot are rolling towards each other. The two shopping carts collide. Do the two shopping carts form an open momentum system or a closed momentum system?

Step 1: Determine if there are any external forces acting on the momentum system.

There are no external forces acting on the system. The two shopping carts apply forces to each other, but nothing outside of the system applies a force.

Step 2: Identify the system as open or closed.

An open system will have external forces acting on it.
A closed system will have no external forces acting on it.
Since the shopping carts do not have any external forces acting on them when they collide, this is an example of a closed momentum system.

https://study.com/skill/learn/identifying-open-closed-momentum-systems-explanation.html

Trying to claim a pair of people are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Trying to claim a pair of shopping carts are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Literally has nothing to do with atmosphere.
Two shopping carts exert a force on one another. Two people exert a force on one another. Exploding fuel and rocket exert a force on one another.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 11, 2023, 06:46:13 PM »

In this thread Action80 denied that two people attached to each other is a closed system. He is objectively wrong about what a closed system is in kinematics - this isn’t my opinion. That is a textbook example of simple action/reaction - two people pushing off each other.

Abstractly, it is the same concept as gas pushing against a rocket. Before the action, the two actors (fuel and rocket, person 1 and person 2) are connected. After the action, there is a force that pushes both of them apart from each other. There’s no wriggling out of this being the case.
Sorry Action, but your whole plume obsession is completely unfounded and not based on really anything at all.

There is mountains of research and engineering that goes into the smallest aspect of parts such as RCS thrusters that take payloads to Mars. They are designed in a very particular way to work long-term in the harsh environment of space.

Trying to claim a pair of people are a single unit...FUCKING HILARIOUS!!!

Nice argument. How scientific.

Person is pushed against by person. Rocket is pushed against by exploding fuel. That’s it. Not really worth a 6 page thread.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 10, 2023, 08:10:26 AM »

Losing sight of the word, "exchange".

Have you read the thread?

Or are you just going to continue your lying, gaslighting ways?

If you must insist that a rocket is a closed system, then you must understand that the rocket engine and the resulting exhaust gasses are 2 elements within that closed system that can and must force pair because momentum must be conserved in a closed system. 

It isn't a case of the closed system force pairing with itself.  It's a case of the force pair happening within the closed system.  A very significant difference that you don't seem to grasp.

I see.

You are just going to continue to post bullshit and lie your ass off.

Nobody’s lying to or gaslighting you. You’ve wasted half your breath in this thread telling people to “stop posting bs!” “leave reality to the sane!” instead of anything of real substance.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 07:49:37 PM »

Joule's expansion.

It is about gas freely expanding when it is released to a vacuum.

Sorry, but Joule (not Joule’s) expansion is not the same thing as Joule’s Law. Gases expanding in space has nothing to do with the reaction force of the combustion moving the rocket.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 07:44:34 PM »

You are clearly stating the gas exhaust (something which is part of the rocket, a single closed system, as something entirely separate, like the other person.

It is foolish and you are writing crapola.

You are objectively wrong. Two people attached to each other is a closed system in the same way gas inside a fuel tank is.

A person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force. And neither examples have anything to do with atmosphere.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 07:41:12 PM »

You have absolutely no idea what you are writing. Gas released to vacuum performs 0 work. It freely expands.

Joule's Law.

That is literally not what Joule’s Law is. Joule’s Law is about the proportionality of heat generated and current through a conductor. I think we’re about wrapped up here.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 07:30:54 PM »

Inside a combustion chamber there is the introduction of a mass of fuel at a low relative velocity.  The fuel mass is set on fire.  That releases energy.  One end of the combustion chamber is closed to the product of the combusted fuel.  The other end is open to the outside of the engine.  Since the pressure is lower on the outside, the combusted fuel accelerates out in that direction.  The accelerated fuel mass produces a force equal and opposite to its acceleration vector. 
 
Any pressure on the outside of the rocket engine will inhibit the exhausts acceleration.  Since the force is proportional to the mass acceleration the less external force outside the rocket engine the more force will be produced.  This means that a rocket will be more efficient in a vacuum than in an atmosphere.

This is correct.

Trying to equate two people pushing off each other to the operation of a rocket is just plain stupid, so do everyone a favor and stop posting bs.

Do explain  a person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 05:25:58 PM »

You’re holding onto someone in a vacuum.
You push off each other. According to Action80, only one of you should move (the gas should move but not the rocket).
After all, before you both push you’re a “closed system”. It’s almost as if, when you push off the other person, the le momentum is… le conserved.

Rockets are, in fact, observed to gain efficiency at higher altitudes with less air resistance (varying slightly with the engine’s specified job)

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 08, 2023, 05:56:25 AM »

It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

A plume is a jet of plasma. A contrail is condensed water. What does a contrail have to do with anything?
Also, the “force pair” is the gas pushing against the rocket and the rocket itself. Hope this helps!

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 11:51:09 PM »

What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.

You should have asked about conservation of momentum in general rather than angular momentum in particular.

I'm still curious about what quality of an exhaust plume allows it to push off a medium less dense than itself.

I agree. I’m just curious on whether he accepts a “subcategory” as an explanation for some things but not other things.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 10:41:50 PM »

What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:25:32 PM »

Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific 
Or at the very least - try to keep up!

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:24:14 PM »

The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.

Yeahh you’re going to need some supporting evidence or reasoning. Your claim is wildly inconsistent with basic observation.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:24 PM »

Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

…what? Please reread what was said.
Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:36:55 PM »

No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:04:27 PM »

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.

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Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 06:22:49 PM »

And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I’m sorry Action, but you’re just fundamentally unprepared for this debate. You were unable to discern the terminology of “space” vs “deep space” and inappropriately attributed to a mistake on MY end.

To quote the article: “satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes”

This is absolutely correct usage because probes are in fact designed for deep space, while space stations are in LEO. You saying I’m using them “interchangeably” demonstrates your own lack of understanding 
I recognize you have nothing to add and honestly? That’s okay. You have time to learn still.