1

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 10:05:33 PM »

Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

Do his superiors and the engineers that designed the equipment he works on understand it?

Of course they do.

If he were to ask the people who trained him about rockets and vacuums what would they say?

Pretty much the same thing I am.

Are you smarter than them or are they lying to hide the truth?

Lying about what?

2

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 10:03:24 PM »

Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific 
Or at the very least - try to keep up!

What "angular momentum?" A rocket is pointed toward a direction during the propulsion phase (i.e., linear momentum).  If a rocket, taking off in a pressurized environment, enters a non-pressurized environment, it will continue to move until an equal opposite force acts upon it. But its movement will soon cease because the plume can no longer maintain its integrity.

Take any one of your analogies and feel free to apply the adjective "nonsense."

Is that specific enough for you? I hope so because it is true.

Very true.

3

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:20:33 PM »

Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

…what? Please reread what was said.
Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?

Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

4

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:47 PM »

@Action. First of all respect to your nephew; serving his country in the military and then transferring those learned skills to the airline industry.  Similar career path to mine, though in the UK. 

Following up on Dr v-N, I wonder if you have actually discussed jet engine theory with your nephew, or whether you are just throwing in random relatives in the hope that it will lend your argument some kudos.  My sister is a nurse, but that wouldn't reinforce any argument I might make about Covid. 

And I don't like labouring a point, but you still haven't explained how the presence of a plume lends thrust to the jet/rocket.

Yes, I have and he understands that a pressurized environment must exist for a plume to form.

The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.

5

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 09:14:58 PM »

No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.

Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

Unbelievable!


I will spare you the rest here, because you are simply clueless.

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.

I agree what a plume is and have already stated as such.

Your LOL is simply you laughing at your own nonsense.

I am not the one with a problem, you are.

6

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:29:55 PM »

An astronaut floating in space fires a shotgun, a catapult launching a rock, a dude in a vacuum sits on a hand grenade and doesn't move when it goes off...

I see where the faker gets his nonsensical and fake analogies.

7

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 08:26:30 PM »

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

Using an inappropriate analogy isn't going to help you.

I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.

No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Hold onto your folly.

Leave reality to the sane.

8

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 07:08:14 PM »

Ronj is going on about a "plumb," he must have pulled out with his thumb over in a corner somewhere. Conveniently forgetting that no "plumb," assigns a big fat 0 to the A in the equation. I don't care if you multiply 1,000,000 M's to the big fat 0 of A, F will end up as a big fat 0.

Donutz is still asking how jets move when he is supposedly a former jet engine mechanic (by the way my nephew is currently employed by United Airlines, having served over 10 years as a former Air Force jet engine mechanic). Jets too, form a plume in the pressurized atmoplane, allowing them to move. The only difference in accomplishing their operation of movement is jets require an intake of external oxygen to achieve combustion (open system), whereas rockets do not have air intakes and have a self-contained material allowing combustion to take place when it is mixed with the fuel.

And faker is going on about who is ill-prepared, when his lack of reasoning has been so thoroughly discredited on this site it is laughable.

You are the one, faker, who was posting the bounce-around terms, clearly subscribing to them, just willy-nilly all over the place.

Really laughable.

Typical.

Rockets work in a pressurized environment where they can form a plume.

No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

9

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 05:02:52 PM »

And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I… didn’t?

Yeah, you did...
[/quote]

deep-space .”

space

Anything else you have said since me bringing this up has been painfully obvious avoidance of the topic. You have arbitrarily established that plumes cannot form without pressure. There is literally nothing anywhere that demonstrates or claims this. You made it too easy.

I have not avoided the topic at all.

I already stated how rockets move.

A gas plume from a rocket cannot form in an environment absent of external pressure.

That is the fact of the matter and nothing you have provided states otherwise, aside from the usual gaslighting bs practiced by a bunch of know-nothings trying to pass themselves off as expurtts.

They use a generic term like "space," just like you do, deliberately misleading people into picturing something like a scene from Buck Rodgers, when in fact a rocket will perform work in "space," as long that space has an adequate amount of pressure to allow a plume to form when the rocket ejects the self-contained gas.

A vacuum in "outer space" such as reported by RE-adherents, does not possess enough environmental pressure. 

10

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 07:48:30 AM »

This is a different paper. It makes no mention of 60-80 km. Not surprised you didn’t actually read any of it.
You know the terms “space” and “deep space” aren’t just randomly used interchangeably right?

There was no "paper," just an abstract and a list of references, so you didn't, "read it," either.

And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

11

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 07:36:47 AM »

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

Again, switching between the terms "space," and "deep space," is kinda funny.

Rockets can work at altitudes of 60-80 km.

12

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 07:18:13 AM »

What’s the altitude where the plume stops being a plume and why? Why is the shape of exhaust arbitrarily no longer called a plume to you if you go higher?

It seems your article is inserting contradictory adjectives.

The article is talking about different things at different times. These aren’t contradictory.
What aren’t you getting about calling a plume from a deep space probe a plume? Is it because they, in the same article, describe the simulated altitude (60-80km) of their low-pressure chamber? Does that undo them calling a deep space probe’s plume a plume? Is that the road you’re going down?


“In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

Listen, if you don't understand the words, "deep space," are not synonymous with "60-80 km," then maybe you should check another forum instead.

13

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 06:43:36 AM »

There is a shape in both of your pictures, of course. One is more defined. but again, your paper is specifically writing, ""60-80 km...". Not an outer space vacuum environment.

What’s the altitude where the plume stops being a plume and why? Why is the shape of exhaust arbitrarily no longer called a plume to you if you go higher?
And I say “to you” because I linked the article in the first place to cite usage of the word “plume” relating to, quote: “the exhaust flow of the attitude control thrusters of satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes would expand freely and produce the plume.”

"Deep space," is your first clue.

"60-80 km..." does not constitute "deep space..."

It seems your article is inserting contradictory adjectives.

14

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 06:12:36 AM »

A plume cannot form in a vacuum.

It’s literally just the word for the gases that come out of a propulsive engine. If it makes any shape, that shape is called a plume.

There is a shape in both of your pictures, of course. One is more defined. but again, your paper is specifically writing, ""60-80 km...". Not an outer space vacuum environment.

15

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 05:58:51 AM »

No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

They are called plumes regardless of being in a vacuum or not. The actual shape doesn’t make it not a plume.

A plume cannot form in a vacuum.

To cite this paper, for example: https://doi.org/10.1016/j.cja.2012.12.016

“In vacuum environment, the exhaust flow of the attitude control thrusters of satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes would expand freely and produce the plume. The vacuum plume would possibly cause undesirable contamination, aerodynamic force and thermal effects on the spacecraft, which would debase the capability of functional components and even make the flight missions fail. Therefore, for spacecraft designers the effects of the plume must be taken into account.”

I have no idea why you would make this claim.

First, your paper clearly states the altitudes are at "60–80 km..." which is not a "vacuum environment."

Second, rocket engines can and do indeed work in lower-pressure environments than jet engines.

16

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 05:37:25 AM »

Ah yes, please do not allow the facts I posted prevent you from straw-manning the living bejesus out of the post.

Pathetic.

Nobody gives a damn whether you think the word "monstrous," is hyperbole or not.

Why the negativity? You’re the first one to be disrespectful in this thread. That truly reflects on your character.

Did you start a thread about character or how rockets push off air?

The jet engine and the rocket engine accomplish their work (i.e., movement) by ejecting a gas, which in turn forms a plume (which can only take place if there is an externally pressurized environment).

Interesting. So would ejecting a gas to move a rocket work in a vacuum?

No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

Ill actually be more concise to what I’m getting at:
What does “pushing off of something” actually mean? Why should something move if it pushes against another object?

There is nothing more "concise," about this additional query.

17

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 07, 2023, 05:03:05 AM »

As long as either a jet or rocket engine can eject gas that is capable of forming a plume, then work (i.e., movement) can take place.

So air resistance is the force that is moving rockets? Air resistance being the “pushing off the atmosphere”?

As long as a plume is capable of being formed (and this can only take place in a pressurized environment, external to the engine exhaust), then the craft can move.

I began training as a Jet Engine Engineer in 1969; it was my career. 

I've no idea what the "plume" is that Action80 refers to in respect of a gas turbine engine.  They categorically do not rely on "resistance", or "pushing off the atmosphere", but please don't allow facts to get in the way of a good theory.

Ah yes, please do not allow the facts I posted prevent you from straw-manning the living bejesus out of the post.

Pathetic.

Contrary to its title, "Popular Science" is not a professional scientific journal, it is a digest of scientific articles written for the layman.

True.

The issue in question appears to date from the 1940s, and the article admits that much of the technology discussed is still secret.

True.

The statement that thrust is obtained by a ("monstrous") jet of energy pushing against the atmosphere" is incorrect, as well as employing hyperbole.

The statement was true then, it is true now, and will remain true as long as jets or rockets remain in use. Nobody gives a good goddamn about your protestations otherwise. 

The diagram top-left of the article is false; there is no such component as a "carburation chamber (C)" in a gas turbine engine, nor does it illustrate the turbine.

Ignoring the fact it is a simplified diagram sourced from "Flight," magazine and not meant to be technical at all, I forget whether it was Heinkel or Messerschmitt, but fuel delivery in the early days did take place by using carburetors rather than injectors, so it does not qualify as "false."

Nobody gives a damn whether it illustrates the turbine or not.

Nobody gives a damn whether you think the word "monstrous," is hyperbole or not.

The jet engine and the rocket engine accomplish their work (i.e., movement) by ejecting a gas, which in turn forms a plume (which can only take place if there is an externally pressurized environment).

18

Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?

« on: December 06, 2023, 08:50:54 PM »

I’d love to get discussion going on this. Do rockets move by pushing off the air?
It sure makes sense.

Rockets eject a plume of gas from the bell nozzle. This allows them to move.

Jet engines do the same.
“After compression it was heated, augmented by additional burning fuel(reported in the press to be kerosene), and finally discharged from the aft vent in a monstrous jet of energy pushing against the atmosphere.”


As long as either a jet or rocket engine can eject gas that is capable of forming a plume, then work (i.e., movement) can take place.

If a plume cannot form (i.e., no external pressure facilitating the formation of a plume), no work (i.e., movement) will take place.

19

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Cheating in Chess

« on: November 27, 2023, 07:36:13 PM »

Cheating in chess has garnered much attention over the past year, commencing with the former World Champion (2013-2023), GM Magnus Carlsen, withdrawing from the 2022 Sinquefeld Cup after losing to GM Hans Niemann in their third-round match of the event. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlsen%E2%80%93Niemann_controversy

Since that event last year, much of the news involving cheating in chess has been centered on steps that major online platforms, such as Chess.com and Lichess, have taken in an effort to detect cheating on their websites.

Most recently, GM Hikaru Nakamura, who is the second-highest-rated blitz player on the Chess.com platform, has been effectively accused of cheating on the platform by former World Champion (2000-2007), GM Vladimir Kramnik. Kramnik has started a petition demanding Chess.com perform and publish an analysis of the results Nakamura has achieved over a recent sixty-day period of play on Chess.com.
Petiton]https://tinyurl.com/yznvyxhw]Petiton

When the Carlsen-Niemann controversy erupted, I was questioning the governance policy/procedure FIDE (the governing body of professional chess worldwide) had in place concerning inviting or allowing admitted or proven cheaters to participate in FIDE-sanctioned tournaments, even those held in person and over-the-board. I do not believe persons found to have cheated during online chess should be invited or allowed to participate in FIDE-sanctioned tournaments.

This latest bit of news involving Nakamura becomes even more interesting given that Nakamura has qualified to participate in the next Candidates tournament.   

20

Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Trump

« on: November 21, 2023, 10:02:14 AM »

In all my life, the word scheme has always held a negative connotation, typically involving criminal acts or fraudulent acts.

Perhaps for you, but that isn't necessarily the case for the rest of the English speaking world.

1: a plan or program of action
especially : a crafty or secret one

"Crafty" and "secret" don't always imply criminal or fraudulent.

^markjo is seriously claiming this.

Unbelievable.