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### Messages - Realestfake

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1
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 07:49:37 PM »
Joule's expansion.

It is about gas freely expanding when it is released to a vacuum.

Sorry, but Joule (not Joule’s) expansion is not the same thing as Joule’s Law. Gases expanding in space has nothing to do with the reaction force of the combustion moving the rocket.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 07:44:34 PM »
You are clearly stating the gas exhaust (something which is part of the rocket, a single closed system, as something entirely separate, like the other person.

It is foolish and you are writing crapola.

You are objectively wrong. Two people attached to each other is a closed system in the same way gas inside a fuel tank is.

A person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force. And neither examples have anything to do with atmosphere.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 07:41:12 PM »
You have absolutely no idea what you are writing. Gas released to vacuum performs 0 work. It freely expands.

Joule's Law.

That is literally not what Joule’s Law is. Joule’s Law is about the proportionality of heat generated and current through a conductor. I think we’re about wrapped up here.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 07:30:54 PM »
Inside a combustion chamber there is the introduction of a mass of fuel at a low relative velocity.  The fuel mass is set on fire.  That releases energy.  One end of the combustion chamber is closed to the product of the combusted fuel.  The other end is open to the outside of the engine.  Since the pressure is lower on the outside, the combusted fuel accelerates out in that direction.  The accelerated fuel mass produces a force equal and opposite to its acceleration vector.

Any pressure on the outside of the rocket engine will inhibit the exhausts acceleration.  Since the force is proportional to the mass acceleration the less external force outside the rocket engine the more force will be produced.  This means that a rocket will be more efficient in a vacuum than in an atmosphere.

This is correct.

Trying to equate two people pushing off each other to the operation of a rocket is just plain stupid, so do everyone a favor and stop posting bs.
Do explain  a person pushes off of you, moving you in the opposite direction. The gas pushes off of the rocket, moving the rocket in the opposite direction. Both examples start as closed systems, and end with two parts separated by the force.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 05:25:58 PM »
You’re holding onto someone in a vacuum.
You push off each other. According to Action80, only one of you should move (the gas should move but not the rocket).
After all, before you both push you’re a “closed system”. It’s almost as if, when you push off the other person, the le momentum is… le conserved.

Rockets are, in fact, observed to gain efficiency at higher altitudes with less air resistance (varying slightly with the engine’s specified job)

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 08, 2023, 05:56:25 AM »
It doesn't matter what your source claims, there is a plume related to all jets and rockets (i.e., we see what is typically called a contrail), and that plume reacts with the pressurized external environment to form a force pair, which results in movement. No force pair, no movement.

A plume is a jet of plasma. A contrail is condensed water. What does a contrail have to do with anything?
Also, the “force pair” is the gas pushing against the rocket and the rocket itself. Hope this helps!

7
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 11:51:09 PM »
What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.
You should have asked about conservation of momentum in general rather than angular momentum in particular.

I'm still curious about what quality of an exhaust plume allows it to push off a medium less dense than itself.

I agree. I’m just curious on whether he accepts a “subcategory” as an explanation for some things but not other things.

8
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 10:41:50 PM »
What "angular momentum?"

I’m not talking about rockets in this case. I’m asking simply if you believe the concept of conservation of angular momentum to be correct. Out of curiosity. Literally a yes or no question.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 09:25:32 PM »
Do everyone a favor, okay?

Go peddle your nonsensical crapola elsewhere.

I am done with your dissimilar anologies.

Okay. Do you believe in conservation of angular momentum? If not, explain why (according to Action80ian physics) a ballerina speeds up when they pull their arms in.
I don’t know which part was nonsensical. Please be specific
Or at the very least - try to keep up!

10
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 09:24:14 PM »
The plume is like any appendage and is what allows the rocket or jet to push off the atmoplane.

No defined exhaust (plume)... no movement.

Yeahh you’re going to need some supporting evidence or reasoning. Your claim is wildly inconsistent with basic observation.

11
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 09:18:24 PM »
Jesus, you double down to claim it is only an internal combustion absent any exhaust resulting in movement.

Why does a ballerina speed up when they pull their arms in?

12
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 08:36:55 PM »
No concept of a force pair exists in your fake and false description.

Combustion takes place separately and distinctly from the exhaust process.

Your posts are nonsensical and reek of desperation.

Leave reality to the sane.

Explain in detail why it is “fake and false”. The rocket is being pushed against by an internal combustion (which results in gas being accelerated outwards). I really try to not debate with beginner-levels but I do want to help.

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
No, a plume cannot form in an environment where there is no pressure.

You not agreeing what a “plume” is against the rest of the world is literally nobody’s problem but yours. Lol.

13
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 08:04:27 PM »
No external pressure outside the rocket?

No plume.

No plume?

No movement.

The end.

If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did I move backwards because of air resistance?

I’m going to make this incredibly simple.
You want to use the “pushing off an atmosphere” idea.
Okay.
Imagine the inside of an engine. The explosive power of the combustion pushes against the inside of the engine opposite of the plume, moving the rocket. No part of that process required an atmosphere.
The rocket is pushing against something inside itself.

14
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 06:22:49 PM »
And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I’m sorry Action, but you’re just fundamentally unprepared for this debate. You were unable to discern the terminology of “space” vs “deep space” and inappropriately attributed to a mistake on MY end.

To quote the article: “satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes”

This is absolutely correct usage because probes are in fact designed for deep space, while space stations are in LEO. You saying I’m using them “interchangeably” demonstrates your own lack of understanding
I recognize you have nothing to add and honestly? That’s okay. You have time to learn still.

15
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 05:47:50 PM »
I already stated how rockets move.

You stated how you think rockets move, as did Tom Bishop. Nothing of value was provided as evidence or reasoning.
If I throw a bowling ball while standing on a skateboard, did air resistance move me in the opposite direction?

16
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 04:12:19 PM »
And I agree the terms, "aren’t just randomly used interchangeably," so it would be beneficial for everyone if you stopped doing just that.

I… didn’t? No amount of squirming your way out of it (“heh, pick between space and deep space!”, “erm… but they said 60-80k in the same article when talking about something else…”, “erm… I will ignore the contents of what was sent because IT’S JUST REFERENCES”) changes the fact that scientists call the jet of gases coming out a rocket in space a plume. Your willful avoidance of this is just not a good look on your part

”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

Anything else you have said since me bringing this up has been painfully obvious avoidance of the topic. You have arbitrarily established that plumes cannot form without pressure. There is literally nothing anywhere that demonstrates or claims this. You made it too easy.

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 07:40:09 AM »
”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R
Again, switching between the terms "space," and "deep space," is kinda funny.

Rockets can work at altitudes of 60-80 km.

This is a different paper. It makes no mention of 60-80 km. Not surprised you didn’t actually read any of it.
You know the terms “space” and “deep space” aren’t just randomly used interchangeably right?

18
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 07:27:46 AM »
”In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

19
##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 06:56:52 AM »
What’s the altitude where the plume stops being a plume and why? Why is the shape of exhaust arbitrarily no longer called a plume to you if you go higher?

The article is talking about different things at different times. These aren’t contradictory.
What aren’t you getting about calling a plume from a deep space probe a plume? Is it because they, in the same article, describe the simulated altitude (60-80km) of their low-pressure chamber? Does that undo them calling a deep space probe’s plume a plume? Is that the road you’re going down?

“In the space vacuum the exhaust gases form a large free jet, called a plume, which can impinge on neighbouring surfaces.”
https://doi.org/10.1016/0376-0421(91)90008-R

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##### Science & Alternative Science / Re: Do rockets push off the air?
« on: December 07, 2023, 06:16:56 AM »
There is a shape in both of your pictures, of course. One is more defined. but again, your paper is specifically writing, ""60-80 km...". Not an outer space vacuum environment.

What’s the altitude where the plume stops being a plume and why? Why is the shape of exhaust arbitrarily no longer called a plume to you if you go higher?
And I say “to you” because I linked the article in the first place to cite usage of the word “plume” relating to, quote: “the exhaust flow of the attitude control thrusters of satellites, spaceships, space stations and deep-space probes would expand freely and produce the plume.”

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