Offline fisherman

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #160 on: April 24, 2021, 02:59:01 PM »
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Yes, but equivalence allows acceleration and gravity to cause motion in two different ways in the two differing views.

Gravity doesn’t cause motion in GR. That's where the disconnect is. In GR gravity isn’t a force and only a force can cause motion.  FE wants to say, “In GR gravity isn’t a force, therefore in GR gravity doesn’t cause motion.”  but GR doesn’t say that gravity causes motion.  They are disputing a conclusion that GR doesn’t make. 

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Does FE state that the effect of acceleration is the warping of spacetime?  I don't believe it does but admittedly don't know.

Tom I know rejects it, but I don’t think I’ve ever seen an “official position”.  Logically, they have to reject it (so at least Tom is consistent in that) because if acceleration warps space time then the EP as justification for UA goes out the window (no pun intended).  It allows for not just an alternate, but a better explanation for gravity than UA.

If you accept that acceleration warps spacetime and maintain consistency between Newtonian and GR concepts, this is where a coherent argument leads...acceleration causes spacetime warp, acceleration and gravity are the same thing, therefore, gravity is the warping of spacetime, not some force that accelerates the earth up.

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IF the earth were flat and accelerating upwards due to UA the water and bottle would behave exactly the same way as under GR.  Which one happens to be true is irrelevant to the test.

Since the EP doesn’t apply, there is no reason to assume that, and other reasons to assume that it would not be the case.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

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Online Pete Svarrior

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #161 on: April 24, 2021, 03:17:02 PM »
FE wants to say, “In GR gravity isn’t a force, therefore in GR gravity doesn’t cause motion.”
Could you perhaps show an example of FE'ers wanting to say that? Keep in mind that your current conversation is a bunch of RE'ers unable to agree on the fundamentals of the model they claim to support - FE'ers have long abandoned this mess.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we already addressed it.
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Offline fisherman

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #162 on: April 24, 2021, 04:14:59 PM »
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Could you perhaps show an example of FE'ers wanting to say that? Keep in mind that your current conversation is a bunch of RE'ers unable to agree on the fundamentals of the model they claim to support - FE'ers have long abandoned this mess.

Point well taken.  I don't recall ever seeing it explicitly stated that way.  However, I would argue that is the only logical reason for rejecting the idea that gravity is a "force".  If gravity is a force, then the motion of falling objects can be contributed to gravity and there is no reason to come up with UA as an alternative theory to explain why things fall.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information

Offline WTF_Seriously

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #163 on: April 24, 2021, 06:12:41 PM »
Keep in mind that your current conversation is a bunch of RE'ers unable to agree on the fundamentals of the model they claim.

The conversation from a couple of us has simply been to explain that the proposed experiment doesn’t accurately represent what would happen under FE principles.
Lol "Everyone is Wrong and LiEeInG"
That is a desperate argument from a losing position. An argument from a position of strength would have positive evidence for that position.

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #164 on: April 24, 2021, 06:21:59 PM »
However, I would argue that is the only logical reason for rejecting the idea that gravity is a "force".  If gravity is a force, then the motion of falling objects can be contributed to gravity and there is no reason to come up with UA as an alternative theory to explain why things fall.
That flips the discussion on its head. I'm sure you'll find some people who reach this conclusion, but generalising a bit I don't think FE'ers as a whole deny that the RE gravitational model can work. The question is more whether it's what actually occurs in reality.

RE is an OK-ish simulation of reality. Things falling can be attributed to gravitation as proposed by RE'ers, especially if we restrict ourselves to everyday observations normal people can make.
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Offline fisherman

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #165 on: April 25, 2021, 03:17:08 AM »
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That flips the discussion on its head

Not really. Conceding that Gravity/RE can work doesn’t solve the problem of how UA/FE needs to cherry pick from competing concepts to argue that what we see in reality is UA and not gravity.

If what we see in reality is UA, then gravity cannot be the force that causes the downward acceleration of objects.  If gravity causes it, then it is impossible that UA causes it.

The easiest way to dismiss the idea that gravity is the force that causes downward acceleration is to reject the idea that it is a force at all.
There are two kinds of people in the world.  Those that can infer logical conclusions from given information