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Messages - garygreen

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1381
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Police Body Cameras
« on: May 01, 2015, 03:48:03 AM »
Mass surveillance is not a privacy issue.

Setting aside the Thork-level inanity of this statement, I don't get what your problem with police body cameras is then.  What's the bad thing that happens from having beat cops keep a visual record of what happens to them while on patrol?

1382
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Police Body Cameras
« on: May 01, 2015, 02:54:40 AM »
[N]ot but a year or so ago, the entire country was up in arms about mass surveillance of everyone via the NSA, Facebook, and other organizations. Now we not only have the idea of creating a perpetual state of cameras watching from CCTV on the corner to cameras on LEOs, but many people are begging for more of it. Am I in the twilight zone? I'm guessing it is safe to assume that the people against mass surveillance aren't the same people wanting these cameras everywhere.

This sounds to me like you're asking why the people who oppose NSA surveillance don't also oppose police body cameras.  Mass surveillance is a privacy issue.  I thought you were talking about a privacy issue.  I'm not sure how else to read the OP.

Since the state is already allowed to photograph and film people in public, and since people don't have any expectation of privacy in public, then I don't really see what the problem is. 

1383
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Police Body Cameras
« on: May 01, 2015, 01:45:26 AM »
i'm not a lawyer, so it's possible that i have no idea what i'm talking about.

that said, i don't really understand the logic of the op.  you're talking about privacy in public spaces in a way that makes no sense to me.  walking on a sidewalk isn't like having a private phone conversation.  what expectation of privacy is there for a person in a public space?

1384
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Rowbotham right, Voliva wrong
« on: April 30, 2015, 11:51:43 PM »
You are obviously confused. Watch the youtube video again. It explains it for you in very simple terms.

If you're incapable of explaining your argument on your own, then you're probably the one who is confused.

I take you to be saying: a sextant measures the Sun's apparent diameter at 32 arcminutes, and an arcminute of apparent diameter is always equal to a nautical mile.

Round Earth or flat, this doesn't make any sense because an arcminute of apparent diameter is not equal to a nautical mile.  A nautical mile is a distance on the surface of a sphere.  Apparent diameter is how big something looks.  Those aren't related in any way.

To prove that this is true, simply take a measurement of the apparent diameter of a building with a sextant and convert to nautical miles as per your equality.  Buildings are not tens or hundreds of miles tall, so your equality must be absurd.

1385
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Rowbotham right, Voliva wrong
« on: April 30, 2015, 10:52:26 PM »
But if the earth is flat, the diameter is 40,000km across, then the arc of the sky becomes that same diameter as a round earth. We are now inside the circle/sphere looking out. The earth is flat remember. I'm pretty sick of telling you that. Its flat. When you consider my viewpoint, remember that the earth is flat.

I'm not arguing with you about the shape of the Earth.  I'm saying that this doesn't make any sense regardless of whether the Earth is shaped like a sphere, coin, cube, or mongoose.

If with a sextant you measured the apparent angular size of a building in the distance to be 1 degree, would you conclude that the building is 60 nautical miles tall?


1386
Philosophy, Religion & Society / Re: Baltimore riots
« on: April 29, 2015, 09:25:59 PM »
Who is ultimately responsible for the crime and violence of the Baltimore riots?  The people doing the crime and the violence.  I don't think anyone actually disputes this.

What caused the people who rioted to act as they did?  They're all just a bunch of assholes.  This is where I diverge from people like Irush and PP (and I think it's what Tausami is trying to dispute, but I don't want to speak for Tausami).

Anyone who thinks this is any more complicated than 'violent assholes acted like violent assholes' is an intolerable, brainwashed idiot who can't think for themselves, or who has some bizarre ulterior motive for arguing against a position that they know must be false.  This is why I can never take your divergence seriously.

1387
Flat Earth Theory / Re: Rowbotham right, Voliva wrong
« on: April 27, 2015, 10:50:09 PM »
If you use a sextant and measure the size of the sun it comes out a 32 arc minutes as you can see in the table linked.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_diameter#Use_in_astronomy

1 degree = 60 minutes of arc.
1 minute of arc = 1 nautical mile.

It's that simple.

Unless I'm misreading you, you seem to be saying that one arcminute of apparent diameter is necessarily equal to one nautical mile.  That doesn't make any sense.

A nautical mile is a minute of arc of a great circle on the Earth's surface.  That's a different sort of thing from measuring the apparent angular diameter of an object from the Earth's surface.  Maybe I'm dense, but I don't see how the two are related.

http://www.suomennavigaatioliitto.com/files/manual/mark15_25.pdf
Quote
A NAUTICAL MILE is equal to one minute of arc of a great circle.  Latitude is measured north or south from the equator along a meridian (a great circle). One minute of latitude equals one nautical mile anywhere on the earth. Longitude is measured east or west from the prime meridian (zero degrees) at Greenwich, England. It is measured along a parallel of latitude (a small circle). One minute of longitude equals one nautical mile only at the equator. Approaching the poles, one minute of longitude equals less and less of a nautical mile.

Stop blindly parroting things that you see in Youtube videos for a moment and think about it: if you went outside and measured the apparent angular size (height, in this case) of a building in the distance with a sextant at, say, one degree of arc, would you conclude that the building is 60 nautical miles tall?

Don't come back to this thread unless you have a source as specific as this disproving my source.

Jesus Christ.

Your source literally just writes "1 minute of arc = 1 nautical mile" on some scrolling text with some animations about electricity or whatever.  Hey check it out I've got some really "specific" sources here disproving your source:

Dr David Thork is terrible.  He is.
It even moves and everything.

1388
Flat Earth Theory / Re: are the sun and moon the same size?
« on: April 25, 2015, 03:16:39 PM »
What has yet to be explained, however, is the incredible coincidence where the sun and moon under RET have a difference in size by over four million times yet appear to be the same size in the sky.

I know the explanation isn't satisfying to you, but modern astronomy definitely has one: there are countless billions of planets orbiting countless billions of stars in countless configurations.  Some fraction of those planets will have one or more moons that are approximately the same apparent size as their sun.  We happen to be on one of those planets.  If modern astronomy espoused that we were the only solar system in the universe, then perhaps a deeper explanation would be required.

Asking for more than that is just asking why the Moon isn't bigger or smaller, or why it orbits where it does, or why the Sun isn't bigger or smaller, etc.  Science doesn't have an explanation other than that it could have been otherwise, but it happened the way that it did.  The outcome wasn't predetermined.  It's really not much different than asking modern astronomers to 'explain' why the Saturn is 1.4 billion km from the Sun.  Why that number and not 1.5 billion or 1.6 billion or any other number?  There are way more number that aren't 1.4 billion, so why wasn't it one of those?  What the odds?!

1389
I'm not 100% sure you were responding to me, but I assume you were.

I never suggested my right wing attitude on "Palestine" was conventional for Judaism. In fact, most Jews of my acquaintance do NOT share my views. They still believe in the Two-State Solution. I did too, for MANY YEARS. I don't now, because my education has taught me that it is unrealistic and stupid to do so. But even in Israel, 85% of Israeli Jews (at least before the last war with Gaza) still believed in it.

Indeed.  I didn't say otherwise.  On the contrary, the Jews I encountered in Jordan were delightful people.  They also weren't being killed or converted or taxed or bothered in any way.  Your narrative of Islam and the Arab world runs completely counter to my experiences.  That's not to say that my experiences are universal or that there is no anti-semitism in the Arab world.  My point is that your reduction of Islam to a moral philosophy of violence, exclusion, and bigotry, is facile.

I have said that many times in this forum as well. Perhaps you are all reading only that which you wish to read. Hell, I have even said, more than once, that if they would be willing to stop throwing their effing rockets, I might even be willing to reconsider, and that against my better judgement. But they haven't, and won't, I don't expect. So I have had no reason to actually go that route.

I think your understanding of who "they" are is problematic.  If by "they" you mean "the Palestinians," then your statement is nonsensical.  The overwhelming majority of the Palestinian people are not throwing rockets at Israel.  They're simply living where they were born.  Since Israel literally won't let them leave, I'm not sure what else they're supposed to do.

If by "they" you mean "Hamas," then I guess you're just advocating collective punishment.  And naively, too.  "The Palestinians can have their human rights back as soon as the terrorists who are locked into this almost-literal-terrorist-factory we built stop being terrorists and stop producing more terrorists."  Ok.

1390
Most Muslims believe what the Qur'an tells them about non-Muslims. After reading it three times, and studying in a Mosque for two years before becoming observant, I know this. You evidently do not. Read the Sunnah as well, where these beliefs are confirmed. And every Muslim I ever met confirmed that nearly all of them upheld Qur'anic standards. One almost has to.

I'm with Tausami.  None of thing rings true to my own experiences, especially in the Middle East.  I'm no expert, but I did spend nearly a month in Jordan in 2014, and I absolutely did talk to the people I met about Christianity, Judaism, Atheism, Palestine, Israel, etc.  I encountered none of the hatred and bigotry you describe.  Not once in that time did I hear anyone express an opinion even close to being as hateful as yours are about Arabs.  Probably the most violent reaction toward Israel that I encountered was something to the effect of "Jews are assholes, and I wish they would just leave everyone alone."  That's pretty much nothing compared to the hateful shit you say on these fora on a regular basis.  You're one of the most hateful people I've encountered in my life.  I didn't meet anyone in Jordan as nasty or hateful as you are.  Keep telling me about how you're on the side of righteousness, please.

Now I'm not saying that Amman is just as secular and liberal as, say, London.  Good luck finding a synagogue.  They obviously do not have the same religious/cultural freedoms in their societies that we do.  And there's nothing inherently evil about that.  Every society draws a different line.  No one tried to kill me, convert me, tax me, or really even argue with me about anything.

You are very, very fond of reminding everyone that you've studied at a mosque for two years.  You've brought it up...literally dozens and dozens of times.  Do you ever think that maybe visiting a mosque in America doesn't complete the picture of what it is to be a Muslim in the Middle East?  Or that maybe such a statement is nonsense on its face since Islam, like Christianity, can be broken up into many smaller factions with mutually exclusive beliefs?  I mean, for all we know you studied at Islam's version of Westboro Baptist. 

1391
I want to clarify a few misconceptions about marijuana use:

Legalising cannabis to reduce drinking is like banning guns to prevent obesity.

I can only speak for myself, but marijuana is a huge part of the reason I don't drink.  I like being intoxicated.  I find it relaxing.  I prefer marijuana to the exclusion of alcohol.  Alcohol gives me hangovers and wrecks my ability to think and make good decisions.  Pot lets me relax and still be a completely functional human being.  But, if pot weren't available to me, I'd still want to be intoxicated, so I'd just drink instead of smoke.

What's more, I definitely know plenty of people who would make the same decision if pot was decriminalized and regulated like alcohol.  They don't now because it's illicit.

I never met anyone who doesn't put tobacco in a joint. For a start, it doesn't burn well without tobacco and keeps going out.

Have you ever heard of a pipe?  Or a vaporizer?  I'm sure there are difference between American and European marijuana use, but most of the people I know smoke their weed in pipes, bongs, and vaporizers; not joints or spliffs.  And if I think about it for a moment, I know hardly anyone other than myself in America who smokes spliffs and not joints.  My experiences surely aren't universal, but it's definitely not the case that everyone who smokes pot mixes it with tobacco.  Not even close, probably.

And by the way, how the hell do you smoke oils or resin in a joint without tobacco?

I smoke hash oils and concentrates by vaporizing them using a water pipe and a titanium fixture (called a "nail").  Think of a bong, but where the weed would go there's a titanium screw that you heat with a torch lighter to vaporize the oil.

1392
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC
« on: April 12, 2015, 03:42:48 PM »
Jesus Christ, Thork.  If you'd just use the damn thing for a couple of days you'd figure out how every IRC channel in the world works.  Sometimes people are chatting.  Sometimes they aren't.  Sometimes it's two people having a conversation.  Sometimes it's a clusterfuck.  Sometimes it's empty all day long.  Everyone is on different schedules and timezones.  It's unpredictable.

It's meant to be super casual.  Pop in and see what's happening.  Say some things if you want to.  Lurk if you want to.  Say BUTTPOOPTASTESLIKEPOOPINMYBUTT.  It's whatever.

e: shit is happening in irc right this very minute.  tom was talking about some stuff.  pizaaplanet was talking about some stuff.  rooster is talking about some stuff.  stuff is going down.  big time.

e2: oh shit now saddam is talking about some stuff, too.  this place is bangin'.

1393
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC
« on: April 12, 2015, 03:04:47 PM »
I know it has nothing to do with flat earth. But this is the flat earth society, and the society element of that is important. That's why people stick around. Not to answer your every round earth objection. That is actually very boring.

Your hostility is entirely misplaced.

For one thing, I'm not sure why you think I'm the sort of user who makes a bunch of posts demanding answers to "my every round earth objection."  I literally never do that.  Actually, I overwhelmingly do the converse: I pretty much stick to "oh yeah well how do REers explain this??" topics.  It's why I'm always antagonizing Tom on NASA threads.

For another thing, I am agreeing with this quote.  That's why I said, "[IRC is] not about taking flat earth debates to a new medium.  It's a casual conversation atmosphere.  It's like a never-ending ice cream social."  You suggested that IRC use is trading off with forum use, that interactions should all happen on the forum, and that it's problematic for these conversations to "disappear into the aether."  I am disagreeing with that.  I'm saying that the two serve different functions.  IRC is casual and conversational in a way that the fora aren't.  They're not discussions that need to be recorded and displayed.  It's a part of the society element.

1394
Suggestions & Concerns / Re: IRC kills the forum, so lets kill IRC
« on: April 12, 2015, 02:01:05 PM »
Making IRC easier to access is useful for those who use it and like that mechanism, but it looks to be posing a danger to these forums as conversations are shifted onto that platform. Personally I don't use IRC as I like to visit, interact and leave the forum. I may do this for half an hour twice a day for example. I have no interest in maintaining a 14 hour IRC connection to enjoy daily debates.

I've only been on IRC for the last week or something, but this doesn't ring true to me.  I haven't yet seen a debate in IRC about anything but movie topics and booze.  Pretty much nothing that happens on IRC is worth preserving for posterity.

I think you're missing the point of IRC.  It's not about taking flat earth debates to a new medium.  It's a casual conversation atmosphere.  It's like a never-ending ice cream social.

1395
Arts & Entertainment / Re: FES Book Club
« on: April 08, 2015, 03:56:00 PM »
Recently finished and would recommend:



http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1199688.Babel_17
    Babel-17 is all about the power of language. Humanity, which has spread throughout the universe, is involved in a war with the Invaders, who have been covertly assassinating officials and sabotaging spaceships. The only clues humanity has to go on are strange alien messages that have been intercepted in space. Poet and linguist Rydra Wong is determined to understand the language and stop the alien threat.

Basically it's a cool sci-fi story that has a lot to say about linguistics and the effects of language on perception.

1396
No, I am talking about Gary calling me a cunt.

That might have been a little beyond the pale.  My bad.

1397
bunch of idiot words not about proliferation

don't you have your own thread dedicated to acting like a cunt?  why do you have to turn every thread you post in into yet another cunty diatribe against the people you hate.

WE GET IT.  YOU DON'T LIKE ARABS.  NO ONE GIVES A SHIT, AND WE ALL THINK YOU'RE A MISERABLE CUNT.

1398
Iran has historically acted the same way world powers do, that is, in their own self interest. I don't see how their religion or culture impacts that.

I don't know if you mean self-preservation or national interests.  Sure, I think nations generally want to keep being nations.  Aside from that general desire, I think Israel and Ukraine are not similar to Iran.  And, I can definitely think of examples of nations that acted counter to what we would call 'rational self interest.'  WWI is replete with them.  The Willy-Nicky letters are an especially good example.  Without going into a whole thing, I think they demonstrate that nations and their leaders can behave counter to their own interests (and the interests of their citizens) because they believe that they have no other choices.  Nicolas says things like, " The indignation in Russia shared fully by me is enormous. I foresee that very soon I shall be overwhelmed by the pressure forced upon me and be forced to take extreme measures which will lead to war," and, "It is technically impossible to stop our military preparations which were obligatory owing to Austria's mobilisation."   I think a nuclear Iran would have plenty of opportunities for national interests to override self-preservation.

I think the primary threat from Iranian nuclearization is less that Iran will first strike someone (Israel) and more that it all but requires their neighbors to follow suit.  Saudi Arabia's alliance with Pakistan (and material support for its nuclear program) can be viewed almost exclusively through that lens.  If Saudi Arabia and Iran both have nukes, then there's good reasons to believe that the proliferation will spread to neighbors like UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc.  I really don't want to see what the Mid East would be like if half of the region had nukes.

I doubt Iran would first strike someone because that would be suicide. As I argued with Tausami, Iran isn't a country full of idiots. They have some religious nuts, yes, but not the kind that offs themselves. They have enemies they want to destroy, but like all countries, they want to destroy their enemies without destroying themselves in the process.

I agree.  I said I don't think Iran would first strike Israel.  I tried to articulate that the danger to me is the proliferation that happens in the region because of Iran.  This is what I'm getting at with Pakistan.  Saudia Arabia currently provides material support for Pakistan's nuclear program as a quid pro quo for nuclear arms if Iran gets the bomb.  If Iran gets the bomb, Pakistan hooks up Saudi Arabia.  Super clever way of achieving some measure of nuclear deterrence without everyone getting all in your shit for having a bomb yourself.  If Iran, Israel, and Saudi Arabia all have bombs, then there's probably enormous pressure on nations like Turkey and Syria to follow suit.  Syria already has a history of trying to get a bomb.

That, to me, is the nightmare scenario.  A tightly packed region of complex cultural, religious, and historical alliances and hatreds.  All with bombs?  No thanks.

I disagree with you that history is good evidence in favor of 'proliferation=security.'  I don't at all dispute that your statement is empirically true to this point in time, but nuclear weapons just haven't been around for that long, and they've been concentrated in the hands of a few states, most of which have exceptionally similar ideologies.  I think it would be a mistake to draw sweeping conclusions from the very limited empirical data that exists.  It's like flipping a coin 50 times and getting 25 heads/25 tails.  The coin might appear to be fair, but we've haven't flipped enough times to know for sure.

"You're right, but you're not right enough!" Lol, okay.

That's not at all what I'm saying.  I'm saying that it doesn't matter how well the data fit your hypothesis if there aren't enough data points to draw any conclusions at all.  Just as 50 coin flips cannot confirm the hypothesis that the coin is fair, I don't think that there have been enough conflicts involving nuclear nations to confirm the MAD hypotheses (I'd rather not test that hypothesis at all).  That the coin appears fair so far is irrelevant.  For example, your statement about nukes only ever stopping wars and not starting them was just as true at the end of 1945 as it is today.  By your logic we could have concluded in 1945 that history proves that nukes only end wars and don't start them! 

That said, I feel like your argument ultimately reduces to, "it hasn't failed yet, so it won't, ever."  That MAD has worked out reasonably well for the past 70 years isn't to me an especially convincing reason to believe that it certainly will for the next 70 years, or 100, or 500.  Past outcomes do not necessarily predict future results.

When it comes to first-strike states being a bother to you, I would be more worried about Israel. They seem to be really intent on making sure they can fire off nukes in any direction and have their Iron Dome system fend off anyone who tries to fight back.

I'm not worried about Iran first striking Israel.  Doesn't Israel just prove that there are easily conceivable scenarios in which MAD breaks down?  MAD depends on mutuality.  If Israel has nukes and a multi-layered missile defense shield, and if Iran suddenly gets nukes, isn't that a reasonable scenario for Israel first striking Iran with nukes?  That makes it sound like it would be pretty bad for Iran to get nukes.

1399
I want Iran to have nukes. Historically, a country that acquired nukes always became more stable and the region became more peaceful. Very recent examples include Israel, which threatened to nuke the entire region and subsequently survived an Egyptian beat-down, and then we have Ukraine, who gave up their nukes only to be invaded by Russia.

I think this position is problematic for a few reasons.  For one thing I think it ignores the specifics of the situation around Iran today, and I just don't think there are enough similarities between the examples you mention and the status quo with respect to Iran.  The most obvious differences to me are the religious ideologies of the states in question and the high degree of multipolarity. 

I think the primary threat from Iranian nuclearization is less that Iran will first strike someone (Israel) and more that it all but requires their neighbors to follow suit.  Saudi Arabia's alliance with Pakistan (and material support for its nuclear program) can be viewed almost exclusively through that lens.  If Saudi Arabia and Iran both have nukes, then there's good reasons to believe that the proliferation will spread to neighbors like UAE, Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Turkey, etc.  I really don't want to see what the Mid East would be like if half of the region had nukes.

This is obviously super simplistic.  There's no real way to know where Iranian prolif would spread.  Several of those nations are NPT ratifiers, the UN and IAEA would get involved, and who the fuck knows how Russia and China would respond.  But that, to me, is the frightening bit.

Nuclear weapons have only stopped wars, they have never started them.

I disagree with you that history is good evidence in favor of 'proliferation=security.'  I don't at all dispute that your statement is empirically true to this point in time, but nuclear weapons just haven't been around for that long, and they've been concentrated in the hands of a few states, most of which have exceptionally similar ideologies.  I think it would be a mistake to draw sweeping conclusions from the very limited empirical data that exists.  It's like flipping a coin 50 times and getting 25 heads/25 tails.  The coin might appear to be fair, but we've haven't flipped enough times to know for sure.

This is ultimately where I disagree with Waltz et al.:  I think the logic holds between two states guided by rational (read: material) self-interest; but, such a restricted model doesn't say anything about multipolar conflicts or states guided by non-rational interests.  Personally, I think those scenarios are the rule and not the exception.  In my view, anything like an objective rationality doesn't exist anyway.  It's always axiomatic, and it's always cultural. 

And, if we're wrong, we're really, really fucked.  Conflicts and violence suck, but not as much as maybe going extinct from nuclear winter or whatever.

1400
Anyone interested in a really excellent defense of MAD and the security benefits of proliferation should read some Kenneth Waltz.  He's spent most of his career writing prolifically (get it?!?!) in support of nuclear proliferation.

There's also a really excellent paper titled An Assessment of the Merits of Selective Nuclear Proliferation (couldn't find a free pdf, but you can surely get a copy from your public library's electronic catalogue if you're interested in reading it) that models the probabilities of bilateral conflict between nuclear states. It's fantastic.

Ultimately I disagree with these authors, but they're really great reads nonetheless.

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