Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« on: May 14, 2018, 10:52:34 AM »
Those who believe the Earth is flat vary in the exact theories, but whether they believe in science or religious literature as the basis for their claims, a new YouGov study reveals that 2% of Americans resolutely say the earth is flat.

While an overwhelming majority of Americans (84%) believe that the Earth is round, at least 5% of the public say they used to believe that but now have their doubts.

Flat earthers find traction in their beliefs among a younger generation of Americans. Young millennials, ages 18 to 24, are likelier than any other age group to say they believe the Earth is flat (4%).

8215 US adults were questioned on Feb 6, 2018.

Results are weighted to be representative of the US population.



Data from YouGov Profiles suggests a link  between belief in a flat earth and spirituality. For some flat earthers, evidence of the earth’s shape may be found in scripture – more than half of Flat earthers (52%) consider themselves “very religious,” compared to just a fifth of all Americans (20%).



https://today.yougov.com/topics/philosophy/articles-reports/2018/04/02/most-flat-earthers-consider-themselves-religious
« Last Edit: May 14, 2018, 10:54:15 AM by Charles Darwin »

Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #1 on: May 18, 2018, 01:03:32 PM »
To put it another way:

If you take 5000 Americans...

1000 will be very religious
100 will be flat earthers
52 will be very religious flat earthers

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #2 on: May 19, 2018, 07:10:06 PM »
This is an interesting observation, since it completely contradicts what vocal supporters of FET say. Most groups are either not explicitly religious, or explicitly non-religious. One has to wonder whether there is a "silent majority" going on.
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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #3 on: May 19, 2018, 07:33:01 PM »
I think religious is the word tripping up and ruining the results.

I think 'spiritual' would give a fairer spread of the situation. I am not religious (a subscriber to an organised religion), but I most definitely have a soul.

That said, a flat earth does lend itself more to a creation event with intelligent design (even if that is initiated by a big bang). Flat Earth puts you at the centre of the universe. Life flourishing in a designated part of the universe, centre stage. Round Earth is designed to destroy religion, not only being at odds with what is written in holy books, but also about you being insignificant on a tiny dot by fluke in a universe that doesn't care. Who wants to go through life thinking its all a fluke and insignificant and worthless? I'd rather be wrong than miserable. Deism suits me well.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 07:38:59 PM by Baby Thork »
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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #4 on: May 19, 2018, 08:45:56 PM »
I think religious is the word tripping up and ruining the results.

I think 'spiritual' would give a fairer spread of the situation. I am not religious (a subscriber to an organised religion), but I most definitely have a soul.

That said, a flat earth does lend itself more to a creation event with intelligent design (even if that is initiated by a big bang). Flat Earth puts you at the centre of the universe. Life flourishing in a designated part of the universe, centre stage. Round Earth is designed to destroy religion, not only being at odds with what is written in holy books, but also about you being insignificant on a tiny dot by fluke in a universe that doesn't care. Who wants to go through life thinking its all a fluke and insignificant and worthless? I'd rather be wrong than miserable. Deism suits me well.

I'm not sure we can really say that spiritual people were answering that they were religious: spiritual non-religious people generally know what they are.

Round Earth is not "designed to destroy religion". Round Earth is just a fact, it's not related to religion. The shape of your house doesnt reflect on your soul.

Which 'holy books' is it at odds with? The Upanishads? The Tao Te Ching? Conversations With God? The Dhammapada? The Bhagavad Gita? The Guru Granth Sahib?

You don't need to think the Earth is flat to live a meaningful life. :-)

Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #5 on: May 19, 2018, 08:50:55 PM »
Meanwhile, I'm surprised to hear flat earthers say they don't think flat earthers are religious. Rowbotham and all the Victorian ones were certainly primarily motivated by their Biblical Literalism. And a lot of the foremost YouTube and facebook flat earthers are Christians.

But maybe it's just that the Bible defending ones stand out more when I run across them; I guess I shall have to rethink that.

So Tom isn't a Christian? That surprises me.

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #6 on: May 19, 2018, 09:05:54 PM »
Pretty much everyone in Victorian Britain was a Christian. Atheism didn't grow until post-war world war governments and those of the cold war really pushed secularism so that people would look to the state as the divine power. The lessons from the battles for hearts and minds had been learned. People had to look to the state for everything and to become dependant on that state in order to want to defend it.

You're ill? don't ask God for a cure, ask the government for a welfare program.
You're poor? Don't pray to God. Ask the government.
You want justice? Ask the government.

The government wanted to be the answer to everything and to be the almighty power on earth. Here is some chilling footage of the US government trying out subliminal messaging in the 1960s on the American public.


Check the words - video is slowed down after 1:17. "God is real. God is watching. Believe in government God."
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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #7 on: May 19, 2018, 09:29:15 PM »
That's a good point that Christianity was far more widespread in Victorian Britain than it is now - though Biblical Literalism was quite a new phenomena, as it is still, arising from a desire to challenge the scientific discoveries of the day.

Whether religion has shrunk purely because of socialism or not, I'm not sure. Maybe at the same time that socialism has grown, people have become more able to think for themselves, while information has become more readily available - as well as increased choice.

It was pretty difficult for Victorian Britons to find books on Buddhism or meditation, let alone join a group to practice it. Christianity was basically the only game in town - which I suppose was good for those like Rowbotham, who felt their ego threatened by anything which undermined it as "the one true faith". Though I suppose many of those he was arguing against were Christians too.

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #8 on: May 19, 2018, 11:48:33 PM »
Maybe at the same time that socialism has grown, people have become more able to think for themselves
That is unlikely as that is the exact opposite of what socialism is about. Socialism is about the hive mind. Everyone is equal and the same. There is no individual in socialism. It is all about the collective. All should be rewarded equally and all should suckle from the ghastly teat of the state. The state is at the top, and everyone else is underneath it, boot on face. Individual thought is discouraged. Today we call it hate crime or politically incorrect, to express thoughts outside of the collective. It is actively discouraged wherever it occurs.

It was pretty difficult for Victorian Britons to find books on Buddhism or meditation, let alone join a group to practice it. Christianity was basically the only game in town - which I suppose was good for those like Rowbotham, who felt their ego threatened by anything which undermined it as "the one true faith". Though I suppose many of those he was arguing against were Christians too.
Victorian Britons had this thing called Queen Victoria and she had far more power than our modern Queen. Promoting divine right was still important. It was the Queen's British Empire, she was ruler of the most of earth. Maintaining Christianity at the time was still an important requirement. I would point to the Suez Canal incident, and Breton-woods as important turning points ... those signalled the end of the British Empire and really the last gasp of the church's power over Westerners. The US government (the new rulers of the world) were a democracy without monarchy and had no need of God.
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 11:50:19 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Tontogary

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #9 on: May 20, 2018, 12:47:38 AM »
Maybe at the same time that socialism has grown, people have become more able to think for themselves
That is unlikely as that is the exact opposite of what socialism is about. Socialism is about the hive mind. Everyone is equal and the same. There is no individual in socialism. It is all about the collective. All should be rewarded equally and all should suckle from the ghastly teat of the state. The state is at the top, and everyone else is underneath it, boot on face. Individual thought is discouraged. Today we call it hate crime or politically incorrect, to express thoughts outside of the collective. It is actively discouraged wherever it occurs.

It was pretty difficult for Victorian Britons to find books on Buddhism or meditation, let alone join a group to practice it. Christianity was basically the only game in town - which I suppose was good for those like Rowbotham, who felt their ego threatened by anything which undermined it as "the one true faith". Though I suppose many of those he was arguing against were Christians too.
Victorian Britons had this thing called Queen Victoria and she had far more power than our modern Queen. Promoting divine right was still important. It was the Queen's British Empire, she was ruler of the most of earth. Maintaining Christianity at the time was still an important requirement. I would point to the Suez Canal incident, and Breton-woods as important turning points ... those signalled the end of the British Empire and really the last gasp of the church's power over Westerners. The US government (the new rulers of the world) were a democracy without monarchy and had no need of God.

You are not correct in the turning points of the empire.

The First World War hastened the break up of the empire and some of our largest colonies were moving to independence. WWII  saw the UK crippled by debt, and unable to afford the empire, and as a consequence of WWII a large number of colonies were actively seeking independence shortly afterwards, think India, and Far East as well as African countries.
All of that was before the Suez Crises.

Queen Victoria had no more political power than any other modern day monarch, but she may have had mor epublic opinion and influence. Not the same as power.

However the decline in attending organised religious events can be correlated to the level of impartial education, i.e. education that is not reinforced by religious doctrine, but by science and learning, allowing the pupil to make their own ideas.
The countries where stigma, convention, peer pressure, or laws requiring adherence to religious practices are those countries where religion is the highest (i include the USA in that bunch) and this potentially restricts free thinkers.

Socialism certainly tried to suppress religions, but for the UK, we never ended up with a socialist state, so i cannot agree with your point that it was socialism that created a hive mind, and that everyone in the UK is equal and the same. That is clearly false.

However what is interesting, and touched upon in another thread is that the numbers of FE supporters in countries that are free (by either social or government pressures) to believe in whatever they wish, appears to be much lower by capita than countries that are considered more religious.
Take the FE convention in the UK, very very low attendance per capita and probably much lower per capita head than ones in the states, even considering the relatively smaller distances involved inn the UK.

I would suggest therefore that there is a link between Christianity, and faith in what is written in the bible and blindly following it, and the numbers of FE supporters.

I content that those truly free thinkers, free from religious pressure, (If they wish) and free to research and choose what they believe are NOT FE supporters. How could they be?

I contrast, most of the FE supporters look upon Rowbotham as a sort of prophet who could do no wrong and who discovered the flat earth, and blindly follow the teaching of him, as they do not contradict the bible, so therefore MUST be correct.

Most of the more recent FE influencers, who “revived”,  for want of a better expesssion, the FE movement such as Voliva  and Johnson were definitely very much bible fanatics, who saw no other reason to read any other text books!
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 01:44:43 AM by Tontogary »

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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #10 on: May 20, 2018, 12:59:47 AM »
Do you live in a socialist country, Baby Thork?

If the US government has no need for God, and they have tried to replace religion, why is the US the most religious country in the developed world?

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #11 on: May 20, 2018, 02:11:17 AM »
Do you live in a socialist country, Baby Thork?
Yes, I live in the UK. We have the National Health Service which is one of the greatest abominations of socialism the world has ever seem. You are forced on pain of prison to pay over the odds so that other people less healthy can enjoy healthcare that you pay for. You may not shop for private insurance instead. Only as well. There is no market for healthcare, the NHS has a complete monopoly unless you want to pay twice.

The welfare state extends further. Your taxes are taken from you with threat of imprisonment if you don't comply and used to pay generous public sector pensions (other people's), whilst you must find your own pension for the private sector. Then there is job seekers allowance (imagine that, paying for other people that don't want to work), child benefits (imagine that, paying to rear other people's children), housing benefit (imagine that, paying someone else's rent) ... it goes on and on and on in the uk. It is a welfare state and probably one of the most socialist countries on earth. This was not the case before the second world war ... (it actually coincides with the woman's vote ... women always vote for security over opportunity and the instant women can vote in a nation you get massive welfare programs as the electorate demands protecting and looking after ... the nature of women).


If the US government has no need for God, and they have tried to replace religion, why is the US the most religious country in the developed world?
Because it has a massive Hispanic population ... a low IQ demographic, a large African contingent ... a low IQ demographic ... and then a large amount of rural people who live simple lives running farms and the like ... a low IQ demographic. Take out the Hispanics, blacks and bible belt farmers and most of America is like Europe. Also I think you'll find Poland and the Republic of Ireland are both developed and both far more religious than America.

You are not correct in the turning points of the empire.
I think I am. Suez demonstrated the end of political power for the empire.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2001/mar/14/past.education1

Bretton-Woods changed the British Pound to the US dollar as the world reserve currency. That was the end of financial dominance of the empire. It so happened to be at the end of WW2.

Queen Victoria had no more political power than any other modern day monarch, but she may have had mor epublic opinion and influence. Not the same as power.
The Bedchamber crisis proves this not to be the case.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedchamber_Crisis
She was the last British monarch to block an elected prime minister coming to office. It would be unthinkable today. She also made Disraeli give her the title 'Empress of India' and the entire era was named 'The Victorian Era'. I don't think anyone will be calling this era the Elizabeth the second era. Certainly not Americans for example. But they do talk of the Victorian age. 

However the decline in attending organised religious events can be correlated to the level of impartial education, i.e. education that is not reinforced by religious doctrine, but by science and learning, allowing the pupil to make their own ideas.
Pupils are not encouraged to have their own ideas. They are trained to get jobs and pay tax. They are not given an education so that they can work for themselves and avoid tax. There is no entrepreneurial classes in any school in any nation on earth. They don't even teach you how to register a company at companies house or file a self assessment tax form. They don't want you even thinking about it. again, it is all about the state being all powerful ... not your well being or science and learning. Most of what you learn is junk, like a Pro-Allies version of WW2 or a propaganda rich general studies course which is almost all about accepting mass immigration without question.

The countries where stigma, convention, peer pressure, or laws requiring adherence to religious practices are those countries where religion is the highest (i include the USA in that bunch) and this potentially restricts free thinkers.

Socialism certainly tried to suppress religions, but for the UK, we never ended up with a socialist state, so i cannot agree with your point that it was socialism that created a hive mind, and that everyone in the UK is equal and the same. That is clearly false.
The UK is as socialist as it gets. See above.

However what is interesting, and touched upon in another thread is that the numbers of FE supporters in countries that are free (by either social or government pressures) to believe in whatever they wish, appears to be much lower by capita than countries that are considered more religious.
Take the FE convention in the UK, very very low attendance per capita and probably much lower per capita head than ones in the states, even considering the relatively smaller distances involved inn the UK.

I would suggest therefore that there is a link between Christianity, and faith in what is written in the bible and blindly following it, and the numbers of FE supporters.

I content that those truly free thinkers, free from religious pressure, (If they wish) and free to research and choose what they believe are NOT FE supporters. How could they be?

I contrast, most of the FE supporters look upon Rowbotham as a sort of prophet who could do no wrong and who discovered the flat earth, and blindly follow the teaching of him, as they do not contradict the bible, so therefore MUST be correct.

Most of the more recent FE influencers, who “revived”,  for want of a better expesssion, the FE movement such as Viliva and Johnson were definitely very much bible fanatics, who saw no other reason to read any other text books!
Rowbotham created the modern flat earth society. Is it weird to you that he'd be revered by a current day incarnation of that same society? That's not some sort of prophet. That's like a modern day soccer player paying homage to Pele.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 02:19:34 AM by Baby Thork »
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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #12 on: May 20, 2018, 02:29:54 AM »
I'm also from the UK, so I too think I have a good understanding of what it's like.

Then again, I've also spent 4 years living in the US, and 3 in Mexico.

Mexico is far less religious than the US, by the way.

I'm afraid I can't really engage with you. Your negativity towards what you perceive as socialism seems to have overwhelmed your objectivity.

That's my perception, anyway.

Offline Tontogary

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #13 on: May 20, 2018, 05:01:35 AM »
I cannot agree with you Thork, pretty much on everything you say!

I too am British and I have very different opinions as to our education system, health system, welfare system, and so on.

I am very reluctant to believe anything the Gardian publishes, a rather socialist paper who’s objectivity is pretty much non existent.
The WWI and particularly WWII was the defining point of the loss of the empire, UK riddled with debt, could not hold onto India, or many of the Far East territories, and at least the seeds of independence were sown, way before the suez crises. As was the changing of the dollar as the world reserve currency. We had bankrupted the country in a war.
India was already independent, as was Australia and New Zealand, and Canada had full independence and Autonomy. Those states alone were more territory and land and palace breaking away well before the Suez Canal crises bubbled over. Most other nations who were to become independent already had growing independence movements.
So you are wrong Thork.

Welfare states are there to assist those who cannot or do not work, and to support people after the retire, NOT used to control peoples minds.
I have never received any payouts, housing benefits, job seekers allowance sick pay etc etc in my 35 years of working life, as is the same for the majority of citizens, and making out the country to be controlled by the state in that was is wrong, and plain lying.
Taxes are a fact of life, every country in the world has them, and they are usually collected under pain of punishment. This is not the work of a socialist state, just any state.

Education, i was taught at school and allowed to form my own opinions, we were taught Religous education, built it didnt turn me into a Christian, we were taught physics, but i didnt turn into a physicist, the state has never told me what to think, it cannot do so, and i am a free thinker.

You do come across as a bit of a misogynist with your rant about the woman’s vote, so think it better to leave that, and let the admins deal with it. It really is not that acceptable.

The reverence to Rowbotham though is strange, as most (all?) of his ideas do not stand up to scrutiny and modern science, the belief of his writings blindly do show that there are some very closed minds in the ranks of the FE believers. REAL free thinkers would see past his rhetoric, and shoddy pseudoscience and reject his rantings


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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #14 on: May 20, 2018, 09:26:29 AM »
Guys, just a friendly reminder that you're in the upper fora, and this thread is not about the UK's political situation or the finer points of socialism. If you'd like to continue that part of the discussion, I'm happy to split the posts off to PR&S. Otherwise, please focus on the poll and its implications.

Meanwhile, I'm surprised to hear flat earthers say they don't think flat earthers are religious. Rowbotham and all the Victorian ones were certainly primarily motivated by their Biblical Literalism. And a lot of the foremost YouTube and facebook flat earthers are Christians.

But maybe it's just that the Bible defending ones stand out more when I run across them; I guess I shall have to rethink that.

So Tom isn't a Christian? That surprises me.
It's interesting that your experience is so different from my own. I make a point of avoiding YouTube FE'ers these day, which is likely where the difference comes into play.

I guess these are always the wonders of self-identifying groups. Your mileage will vary depending on who you interact with.
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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #15 on: May 20, 2018, 11:31:23 AM »
You do come across as a bit of a misogynist with your rant about the woman’s vote, so think it better to leave that, and let the admins deal with it. It really is not that acceptable.
And there it is. I am guilty of 'wrong think' and you want me deplatformed. You proved my point. I have a valid opinion and because you don't like it, you want admins to step in and silence me.

I can show a direct correlation between countries that gave women the vote a long time ago and welfare states. Every nation with a womans vote begins massive welfare programs. This isn't just my opinion, but the opinion of academics and modern day philosophers.



How can it be, that if my opinion is so bad, you can't argue with that? Instead you have to silence the suggestion? That is the state leading and you following. You think it alright to stifle ideas and discussion, for topics YOU feel are uncomfortable. And that is the socialist mindset. It is also another influence of women voting in society. Men encourage confrontation and debate. Women shy away from confrontation. Again evidence suggests that this is a survival skill as women often depended on other women to help watch over their children, and an isolated woman who disagreed with the other women in her tribe would find herself at a biological disadvantage. So women try to shut down free speech, avoiding conflict at all costs. On any topic of free speech it is always women that wish to stifle the debate.



You have become feminised (I'm assuming based on our forum demographics you are male). You are part of this feminised society and now espouse traditionally feminine opinions. And this is a STATE led movement based on demographics and the shift in power of voting. You can't tell me you think for yourself, and then tell me you don't want to hear wrong think.

Also you will get nowhere at TFES trying to stifle free speech. It is one of the few hard rules of the forum that anything not illegal is allowed. Free speech is protected here at all costs, no matter how distasteful someone might find an idea. 'Bad ideas' must be discussed else how can you know which ideas are good? If an idea is bad, it should be easy for you to disprove or rebut.

PS- If you are female, you have to look at IQ demographics on free speech and realise how strong biological hard-wiring is influencing your powers of reason.
https://www.unz.com/isteve/support-for-free-speech-its-an-iq-thing/

Guys, just a friendly reminder that you're in the upper fora, and this thread is not about the UK's political situation or the finer points of socialism. If you'd like to continue that part of the discussion, I'm happy to split the posts off to PR&S. Otherwise, please focus on the poll and its implications.
Apologies, sure, split it out. It is a far more interesting topic than "You FErs are all dumb religious zealots" again.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 11:55:57 AM by Baby Thork »
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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #16 on: May 20, 2018, 01:28:56 PM »
It's not that I can't argue with your opinion, or that I wish to stifle free speech, it's that I can't be bothered, and see no purpose in it, for either you or - especially - myself.

I've already been down this road. I have a good idea where it leads.

Meanwhile, on whether flat earthers are generally religiously-motivated, I guess the jury's out.

On the one hand we have the yougov poll, which has a reasonably good confidence level; as well as my personal experience, which may be misleadingly weighted and unconsciously biased.

And on the other we have some members of TFES saying they're not religious, nor are most of the flat earthers here.

I guess there's currently no way to know, unless we ask them all...
« Last Edit: May 20, 2018, 01:49:51 PM by Max_Almond »

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2018, 01:35:05 PM »
It's not that I can't argue with your opinion, or that I wish to stifle free speech, it's that I can't be bothered, and see no purpose in it, for either you or - especially - myself.

I've already been down this road. I have a good idea where it leads.
Then why did you ask that the administrators deal with my post? Why the smear label (misogynist), why the appeal to authority (let admins deal with it), and why the judge, jury and execution of an idea (it really isn't acceptable).

Yeah, you know where this debate leads. It leads to facts supporting the argument you dislike, and feels being the reason for holding the beliefs you do. I shall remember that when you question flat earth theory. You are someone who needs to be appealed to emotionally, you absolutely will not countenance rationality. It makes you uncomfortable.
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Max_Almond

Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2018, 01:47:04 PM »
I think you're talking to the other guy, not me.

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Re: Most flat earthers consider themselves very religious
« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2018, 01:48:31 PM »
This is why avatars are important.  >:(
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