The Flat Earth Society

Flat Earth Discussion Boards => Flat Earth Theory => Topic started by: Round fact on April 04, 2016, 04:00:21 PM

Title: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 04, 2016, 04:00:21 PM
FET says the sun is 3k above the surface. That means that from any point on earth the minimum angle  of the sun above the horizon/surface is 9.02 degrees.

Refraction says the light from the sun will react UP not down

So how can there be a sunset or sunrise?
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 08, 2016, 11:11:29 AM
Again, 5 days on the board and more that 30 views and nada for responses.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Pongo on April 08, 2016, 12:32:26 PM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: rabinoz on April 08, 2016, 12:37:25 PM
Again, 5 days on the board and more that 30 views and nada for responses.
:P Tried the Wiki? :P
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Rounder on April 08, 2016, 12:43:06 PM
If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

If a question that goes to the very heart of the "look out your window" approach to the world isn't an interesting question, I don't know what is.  Flat Earthers tell us over and over that the primary justification for the earth being flat is that it looks flat.  Well, the sun and the moon and the stars all look like they go below the horizon.  I find it fascinating that one "looks like" is the foundation for an entire edifice of scientific and historical revisionism, while the other "looks like" is rejected out of hand, and great energy is expended in explaining how what it looks like and what it is are very different.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: rabinoz on April 08, 2016, 12:45:39 PM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.
And still not had an answer that goes anywhere near explaining what we see!
How can perspective explain how a sun that never gets anywhere near the horizon appear to sink below it? Or do you live on a different world to the rest of us? You don't by any chance live on the late Terry Pratchett's Discworld do you, though even there he had the sun actually setting!
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 08, 2016, 01:37:45 PM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Even a spotlight turned at a right angle to the viewer is visible to a viewer miles away, and the sun is a -27 magnitude star or for those that use watts, 380 Septillion watts of light. Oh and in lumens it is 6.84X1033 lumens.

But even that begs the question of why a spotlight sun is ALWAYS viewed as round even at the horizon.

Now those are interesting questions.

But what you mean is a question that doesn't involve math and science.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Charming Anarchist on April 08, 2016, 01:45:24 PM
So how can there be a sunset or sunrise?
--- because light does not travel forever and you can not see forever. 



Even a spotlight turned at a right angle to the viewer is visible to a viewer miles away, and the sun is a -27 magnitude star or for those that use watts, 380 Septillion watts of light. Oh and in lumens it is 6.84X1033 lumens.
Which all boils down to this:  1 cloud in the sky is enough to fully obfuscate the sun's rays.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 08, 2016, 02:08:57 PM
So how can there be a sunset or sunrise?
--- because light does not travel forever and you can not see forever. 

Even a spotlight turned at a right angle to the viewer is visible to a viewer miles away, and the sun is a -27 magnitude star or for those that use watts, 380 Septillion watts of light. Oh and in lumens it is 6.84X1033 lumens.
Which all boils down to this:  1 cloud in the sky is enough to fully obfuscate the sun's rays.

Light DOES travel forever, it just spreads out, Google Inverse Square Law.  Said law says that SPOTLIGHT sun at 3000 miles altitude would NOT  have the same brightness on the same meridian north or of a position directly below the sun. The lumens striking the meridian would decrease by the square of the distance north and south of directly below the sun.  However the spotlight of the local noon would be seen as a shaft of light from anywhere on a FE. Google Search Lights and WWII. Those beams, though aimed up at very high angles could be been from hundreds of miles away and they were only 525,000 lumens, a percentage so small in comparison to the sun that my calculator says 0%
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Jura-Glenlivet on April 08, 2016, 03:58:58 PM
Sun setting, not fading, setting, through an inversion layer over the sea.

http://www.atoptics.co.uk/atoptics/gfim13.htm
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 08, 2016, 04:16:24 PM
Sun setting, not fading, setting, through an inversion layer over the sea.

http://www.atoptics.co.uk/atoptics/gfim13.htm

Thats the point. An object above a flat surface at a fixed hight cannot be seen to set (go below) said surface. Geometry proves it to be impossible.

The problem is FE supporters are scared to death of grade school math. And they cherry pick ideas to fit their mantra of "Believe what you see." Anything you see that is counter to their belief is dismissed as irrelevant.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Pongo on April 08, 2016, 04:47:11 PM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Not proving you an answer is not evidence of an inability to answer. You can read the FAQ or use the search function. Hell, you can probably just scroll down or page back to find your answer.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 08, 2016, 06:00:18 PM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Not proving you an answer is not evidence of an inability to answer. You can read the FAQ or use the search function. Hell, you can probably just scroll down or page back to find your answer.

The point is there is NO answer in FAQ or Wiki that is mathematical. It is ALL of it fantasy that you cannot defend. So, your fall back position is to deflect the questioner to a part of the site that is equivelent to a gerbil running on a wheel; the faster he runs the faster he gets nowhere.

Well I am not running on that wheel. Provide a mathematical solution to why an object at a fixed altitude above a plain can be seen to go below that plain in violation of all known math and geometry. 
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Charming Anarchist on April 08, 2016, 11:01:23 PM
Light DOES travel
---SNIP---
 to the sun that my calculator says 0%
1 cloud blocks the sun's rays. 

Can you imagine what 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 clouds might do??????????????????? 
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: BCGreenwood on April 08, 2016, 11:20:29 PM
Light DOES travel
---SNIP---
 to the sun that my calculator says 0%
1 cloud blocks the sun's rays. 

Can you imagine what 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 clouds might do???????????????????


You mean how when you see someone walking into mist they disappear from their feet up to their head as they get further in. Oh wait, that's when they walk over a hill and down the other side.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: rabinoz on April 08, 2016, 11:39:30 PM
So how can there be a sunset or sunrise?
--- because light does not travel forever and you can not see forever. 

Even a spotlight turned at a right angle to the viewer is visible to a viewer miles away, and the sun is a -27 magnitude star or for those that use watts, 380 Septillion watts of light. Oh and in lumens it is 6.84X1033 lumens.
Which all boils down to this:  1 cloud in the sky is enough to fully obfuscate the sun's rays.
Sunset is not caused by
clouds fully obfuscating the sun's rays
A cloud can block the direct rays of the sun, but even the heaviest of clouds lets some light through and around!

We get sunsets on the clearest of days AND the sun sets at a very predictable time - within a minute or so! I think this alone it sufficient to show that obscuring by the atmosphere is NOT the cause of the sun setting.
What is more is the the sun quite clearly appears to set behind the horizon.

Sometimes I find it hard to believe that any Flat Earther has ever really seen a sunrise or sunset.
(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w433/RabDownunder/08-Weipa%20Sunset_zpstd6ncc8x.jpg)Wider Spacing(http://i1075.photobucket.com/albums/w433/RabDownunder/13-Weipa%20Sunset_zpsvl5otrfj.jpg)
Are you really going to claim that the sun in these photos is simply being hidden by the "dirty atmosphere" fully obfuscating the sun! Yes, there are clouds, but the sun is going down behind that horizon - my eyes tell me so.
Yes, I took those photos at Weipa on Cape York in North Queensland at 6:20 PM and 6:24 PM on Aug 28, 2003

I do really think that someone needs to visit an eye-doctor fast!

As I (and numerous others) have said of flat earthers. You claim that "the earth looks flat", then ALL other observations, experiments and measurements have to be distorted to suit that ONE observation! Talk about brainwashed closed minds.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: rabinoz on April 08, 2016, 11:43:39 PM
Light DOES travel
---SNIP---
 to the sun that my calculator says 0%
1 cloud blocks the sun's rays. 

Can you imagine what 2 or 3 or 4 or 5 or 6 or 7 clouds might do???????????????????
The sun sets of even when there is not a cloud in the sky! So stop you stupid babbling about clouds.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Pongo on April 09, 2016, 06:29:15 AM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Not proving you an answer is not evidence of an inability to answer. You can read the FAQ or use the search function. Hell, you can probably just scroll down or page back to find your answer.

The point is there is NO answer in FAQ or Wiki that is mathematical. It is ALL of it fantasy that you cannot defend. So, your fall back position is to deflect the questioner to a part of the site that is equivelent to a gerbil running on a wheel; the faster he runs the faster he gets nowhere.

Well I am not running on that wheel. Provide a mathematical solution to why an object at a fixed altitude above a plain can be seen to go below that plain in violation of all known math and geometry.

Oh, so your mind is already completely made up? Well, I'm glad I didn't waste my time writing you a personalized and detailed answer. After all, all the info you seek is in the wiki.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: BCGreenwood on April 09, 2016, 08:59:13 AM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Not proving you an answer is not evidence of an inability to answer. You can read the FAQ or use the search function. Hell, you can probably just scroll down or page back to find your answer.

The point is there is NO answer in FAQ or Wiki that is mathematical. It is ALL of it fantasy that you cannot defend. So, your fall back position is to deflect the questioner to a part of the site that is equivelent to a gerbil running on a wheel; the faster he runs the faster he gets nowhere.

Well I am not running on that wheel. Provide a mathematical solution to why an object at a fixed altitude above a plain can be seen to go below that plain in violation of all known math and geometry.
[/quote

Oh, so you're mind is already completely made up? Well, I'm glad I didn't waste my time writing you a personalized and detailed answer. After all, all the info you seek is in the wiki.

I've read the flat earth wiki answer and it doesn't explain why the sun disappears from the bottom to the top.

If it's perspective then you'd expect the entire object to continuously get smaller.
If it's simply being blocked by clouds you'd expect the entire object to dim, more or less, uniformly.

This isn't what we see.
We see exactly what we would expect if we were on a spinning globe.


Oh and another thing. Your lack of an answer IS evidence that you have no ability to answer the question, it just isn't proof.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 09, 2016, 10:58:46 AM
Flat-earthers have answered questions like this to death. You even asked the same question in two different threads. If you want an interesting answer then ask an interesting question.

So you can't explain it either.

Not proving you an answer is not evidence of an inability to answer. You can read the FAQ or use the search function. Hell, you can probably just scroll down or page back to find your answer.

The point is there is NO answer in FAQ or Wiki that is mathematical. It is ALL of it fantasy that you cannot defend. So, your fall back position is to deflect the questioner to a part of the site that is equivelent to a gerbil running on a wheel; the faster he runs the faster he gets nowhere.

Well I am not running on that wheel. Provide a mathematical solution to why an object at a fixed altitude above a plain can be seen to go below that plain in violation of all known math and geometry.
[/quote

Oh, so you're mind is already completely made up? Well, I'm glad I didn't waste my time writing you a personalized and detailed answer. After all, all the info you seek is in the wiki.

My mind is made up because I understand math. I know that 2+2 is not whatever you fantasize it to  be. I know that the angles involved in FE make it impossible for the sun or moon to set below the plain of a FE.

You FAQ and Wiki ignore a simple fact; Geometry proves an object at fixed distance above a plain cannot descend below the plain.
http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html

As it has been pointed out, perspective cannot be the answer either. The Sun and Moon rise top first and set bottom first. In perspective both Sun and Moon would, because of the laws of math (geometry) remain above the plain and seem to become smaller, while keeping their shape. Now if you insist that the Sun is a "Spotlight" you add the problem that a spotlight appears as a disk only to those directly under the spotlight. To those east and west or north and south of Local Noon, the disk would be visibly distorted and more so at sun rise and set.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Unsure101 on April 09, 2016, 02:59:28 PM
After all, all the info you seek is in the wiki.
You mean the wiki that says that the sun is a spotlight and therefore should appear as an ellipse as it "sets"?
Come on, no flat Earther has ever been able to explain how the sun sets with any considerable explanation without some magic unscientific proof such as bendy light or planetary gears or mystic aether.
There are numerous videos on the utube trying to explain how the sun sets on a flat earth with coins sliding across a table and lights overhead, but nothing to explain how the sun appears to sink below the horizon as a perfect circle and disappear.
The almighty Tom Bishop claims that the sun is a globe, but if that were true it would cast light on a flat earth all the time. We have all observed night time so that cannot be true.

Please, can some flat Earther at least try and explain how the sun can set as a perfect circle using a flat earth model?
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 09, 2016, 04:21:37 PM
Form the site's Wiki;
Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west. This phenomenon arises from the operation of a simple and everywhere visible law of perspective. A flock of birds, when passing over a flat or marshy country, always appears to descend is it recedes; and if the flock is extensive, the first bird appears lower or nearer to the horizon than the last, although they are at the same actual altitude above the earth immediately beneath them. When a plane flies away from an observer, without increasing or decreasing its altitude, it appears to gradually approach the horizon. In a long row of lamps, the second, supposing the observer to stand at the beginning of the series, will appear lower than the first; the third lower than the second; and so on to the end of the row; the farthest away always appearing the lowest, although each one has the same altitude; and if such a straight line of lamps could be continued far enough, the lights would at length descend, apparently, to the horizon, or to a level with the eye of the observer. This explains how the sun descends into the horizon as it recedes.

Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.

Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point is an infinite distance away from the observer, as so:

Fig71.jpg

However, since man cannot perceive infinity due to human limitations, the perspective lines are modified and placed a finite distance away from the observer as so:

Fig75.jpg

This finite distance to the vanishing point is what allows ships to ascend into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point. Every receding star and celestial body in the night sky likewise disappears after intersecting with the vanishing point.


Now the real math of an FE World triangle created by the sun and two observers on the ground. Side (a) is the distance from the observer (The observer is Angle C) on the ground at the Equator to the sun directly overhead at 3,150 miles (The Sun is Angle B). Side (b) is the distance on the ground between the two observers of the sun. For this proof, observer 2 (Angle A) can be thought of as standing directly under Polaris, the farthest point it is possible to be from Observer Angle C, which is a distance of 6,300 miles. Side (c) is the distance between observer 2 and the sun, 7,043 miles.

Angle C is 90 degrees as the sun is ALWAYS directly overhead and Observer Angle A is on the same plain as Angle C. Angle A to Angle B is 26.57 degrees.  This angle is the MINIMUM angle the sun would appear above the the plain in a FE. The maximum is 90 degrees.  Which means the closer Angle A is to Angle C the the Angle to B is STEEPER.

This makes prospective as the reason the sun seems to set below the horizon on a FE plain mathematically impossible. The Sun's angle to ANY observer is NEVER close to the plain/horizon.

The of course in a FE  world, the sun, traveling in a circle over the plain would appear in the morning to be traveling SOUTH and in the evening back NORTH as seen from anyplace above the equator.

Here is the online calculator one can use to see FE's use of prospective is fantasy and mathematically impossible; http://www.csgnetwork.com/righttricalc.html
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: rabinoz on April 09, 2016, 11:54:36 PM
Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point is an infinite distance away from the observer, as so:
Fig71.jpg
However, since man cannot perceive infinity due to human limitations, the perspective lines are modified and placed a finite distance away from the observer as so:
Fig75.jpg
This finite distance to the vanishing point is what allows ships to ascend into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point. Every receding star and celestial body in the night sky likewise disappears after intersecting with the vanishing point.
Be nice to see your figures.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Rounder on April 10, 2016, 05:23:37 AM
Here's the text again, with the figures included.  Doesn't make it any better, just completes the foolishness.

Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west. This phenomenon arises from the operation of a simple and everywhere visible law of perspective. A flock of birds, when passing over a flat or marshy country, always appears to descend is it recedes; and if the flock is extensive, the first bird appears lower or nearer to the horizon than the last, although they are at the same actual altitude above the earth immediately beneath them. When a plane flies away from an observer, without increasing or decreasing its altitude, it appears to gradually approach the horizon. In a long row of lamps, the second, supposing the observer to stand at the beginning of the series, will appear lower than the first; the third lower than the second; and so on to the end of the row; the farthest away always appearing the lowest, although each one has the same altitude; and if such a straight line of lamps could be continued far enough, the lights would at length descend, apparently, to the horizon, or to a level with the eye of the observer. This explains how the sun descends into the horizon as it recedes.

Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.

Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point is an infinite distance away from the observer, as so:

(http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig71.jpg)

However, since man cannot perceive infinity due to human limitations, the perspective lines are modified and placed a finite distance away from the observer as so:

(http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig75.jpg)

This finite distance to the vanishing point is what allows ships to ascend into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point. Every receding star and celestial body in the night sky likewise disappears after intersecting with the vanishing point.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 10, 2016, 10:21:09 AM
Here's the text again, with the figures included.  Doesn't make it any better, just completes the foolishness.

Although the sun is at all times above the earth's surface, it appears in the morning to ascend from the north-east to the noonday position, and thence to descend and disappear, or set, in the north-west. This phenomenon arises from the operation of a simple and everywhere visible law of perspective. A flock of birds, when passing over a flat or marshy country, always appears to descend is it recedes; and if the flock is extensive, the first bird appears lower or nearer to the horizon than the last, although they are at the same actual altitude above the earth immediately beneath them. When a plane flies away from an observer, without increasing or decreasing its altitude, it appears to gradually approach the horizon. In a long row of lamps, the second, supposing the observer to stand at the beginning of the series, will appear lower than the first; the third lower than the second; and so on to the end of the row; the farthest away always appearing the lowest, although each one has the same altitude; and if such a straight line of lamps could be continued far enough, the lights would at length descend, apparently, to the horizon, or to a level with the eye of the observer. This explains how the sun descends into the horizon as it recedes.

Once the lower part of the Sun meets the horizon line, however, it will intersect with the vanishing point and become lost to human perception as the sun's increasingly shallow path creates a tangent beyond the resolution of the human eye. The vanishing point is created when the perspective lines are angled less than one minute of a degree. Hence, this effectively places the vanishing point a finite distance away from the observer.

Usually it is taught in art schools that the vanishing point is an infinite distance away from the observer, as so:

(http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig71.jpg)

However, since man cannot perceive infinity due to human limitations, the perspective lines are modified and placed a finite distance away from the observer as so:

(http://www.sacred-texts.com/earth/za/img/fig75.jpg)

This finite distance to the vanishing point is what allows ships to ascend into horizon and disappear as their hulls intersect with the vanishing point. Every receding star and celestial body in the night sky likewise disappears after intersecting with the vanishing point.

Thanks, I couldn't get the figures to paste for some reason. And those figures make my point as clear as possible. The "vanishing point" explanation is impossible.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Rounder on April 10, 2016, 04:18:00 PM
I had to do some extra work, go to the source and drop the images inline between a pair of IMG tags.
Title: Re: Why a sunrise and sunset?
Post by: Round fact on April 10, 2016, 04:51:15 PM
I had to do some extra work, go to the source and drop the images inline between a pair of IMG tags.

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