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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #80 on: June 01, 2018, 02:21:40 PM »
I have an idea for an experiment.

For the July 2nd, 2019 total solar eclipse, set up a pendulum to look for the Allais Effect near the path of totality, like in Argentina (Buenos Aires or San Juan). And set up another along the global antipode path in China (Shanghai). Though detecting the anomaly seems to be hit-and-miss, this would be to see if whatever may be causing it might also manifest at the antipodal path of the eclipse. If it's a gravity thing involving the sun-earth and moon-earth planes, it might, and seeing it on the opposite side of the world from the eclipse would lend itself to confirming the correlation.

None of us are going to do this, of course. But experienced experimenters in physics could do this, if an answer for the Allais effect is a worthwhile pursuit.
« Last Edit: June 02, 2018, 12:17:31 AM by Bobby Shafto »

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #81 on: June 03, 2018, 04:42:47 AM »
Note: while the Allais Effect is interesting, I'm not sure how it helps answer the question of the altitude of the north star.

So far we've had one 'answer' - a guess, really, of between 10 and 50km - which I think we can all agree is so far from correct it's "not even wrong".

Any others?

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #82 on: June 15, 2018, 10:30:02 AM »
I've figured out a way to measure the altitude of the north star, and it doesn't even require us to know the distance to the north pole.

1. Find two places that are on about the same longitude
2. Take the latitudes (equal to the viewing angle to the north star)
3. Work out the altitude of the north star from that

Since I live in the UK and feel completely certain that our maps and distances are accurate, I chose Brighton and Bridlington, which are both very close to the prime meridian.

The straight line distance between them is 227 miles.
Brighton is at 50.843°N.
Bridlington is at 54.082°N.

A wee bit of geometry reveals the altitude of the north star as 2,522.98 miles.

Taking another two cities:

Glasgow and Plymouth are at -4.2°W, 380 miles apart.
Glasgow is at 55.858°N.
Plymouth is at 50.371°N.

This gives an altitude for the north star above the north pole of 2533.26 miles.

Pretty close! I guess this shows that the altitude of the north star is about 2530 miles, give or take a few.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2018, 07:28:09 AM by Max_Almond »

Offline hexagon

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #83 on: June 15, 2018, 10:50:55 AM »
Hm, how could you be sure about the position of the north star?

According to the natural law of perspective, the apparent position of the north star in the sky is lower than it's real position, so your measured angles do not reflect the real position of the north star.

According to the electromagnetic accelerator theory the light emitted from the north star is bended upwards. Your measured angles assume light that is propagating in straight lines, therefor your measurement is flawed and does not gives you the real position of the north star.

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #84 on: June 15, 2018, 10:58:06 AM »
Just checking again with two other cities:

A point in Albuquerque at 35.1, -106.629.
A point in El Paso at 31.8, -106.629.

The distance is 228 miles.

This time I get an altitude for the north star of 1200.1 miles.

Whaaaat? What's going on?

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #85 on: December 08, 2018, 07:31:35 AM »
I was watching a video where a guy showed birds flying behind the sun, and another that showed clouds behind the sun.

I guess this means that the sun is something like 5-7 miles high - which seems reasonable.

Maybe the north star is only about 4 or 5 times higher than that?

Though that still doesn't explain why my Texas and UK measurements are so wrong.

Offline Spingo

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #86 on: December 08, 2018, 11:09:41 PM »
I was watching a video where a guy showed birds flying behind the sun, and another that showed clouds behind the sun.

I guess this means that the sun is something like 5-7 miles high - which seems reasonable.

Maybe the north star is only about 4 or 5 times higher than that?

Though that still doesn't explain why my Texas and UK measurements are so wrong.

I’m sorry I’ve read some way out stuff on this site but your post really wins the prize. I hope you’re joking.
I think the moral here is dont look to YouTube for an education, try school, then college...then university.

LoveScience

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #87 on: December 09, 2018, 12:07:53 AM »
Not having seen the video myself I cannot comment. However I don't need to see it to know that there was either someone has either got far too much time on their hands to play with video editing or it is a case of serious misinterpretation.


Let's go for 150 million km for the Sun and between 320 and 440 light years for Polaris.   As a star Polaris is far more luminous than the Sun and if it was 10pc away (absolute magnitude distance) it would shine almost as bright as the planet Venus.

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #88 on: December 09, 2018, 12:26:24 AM »
I’m sorry I’ve read some way out stuff on this site but your post really wins the prize. I hope you’re joking.

I think the moral here is don't look to YouTube for an education, try school, then college...then university.

See with your own eyes!





(Note: I don't believe this myself. I'm just presenting the flat earth argument.)
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:48:16 PM by Max_Almond »

Offline Spingo

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #89 on: December 09, 2018, 08:08:55 AM »
I’m sorry I’ve read some way out stuff on this site but your post really wins the prize. I hope you’re joking.

I think the moral here is don't look to YouTube for an education, try school, then college...then university.

See with your own eyes!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4U-IoOlDi3s



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnOjYt2ba2U


(Note: I don't believe this myself. I'm just presenting the flat earth argument.)

Simple explanation

Idiot + camera= total nonsense

Sun behind the clouds!.....simple editing. Two shots on a time line, mask over the sun, invert, select appropriate blending mode! in other words total fake! You did notice that clouds were going both in front and behind the sun at the same time.

Hotspot, easily explained by the person with the camera being a total idiot.

Moral of the story for every idiot with a camera there are a never ending supply of gullible fools who are ready and willing to swallow any old tasty bullshit.

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #90 on: December 09, 2018, 03:47:04 PM »
Sun behind the clouds!.....simple editing. Two shots on a time line, mask over the sun, invert, select appropriate blending mode! in other words total fake! You did notice that clouds were going both in front and behind the sun at the same time.

I don't think that's it. More likely the brightness of the sun/moon overwhelming the camera and rendering everything in front of it invisible, like so:


https://www.metabunk.org/explained-why-clouds-appear-behind-the-sun-and-moon.t7084
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 03:48:43 PM by Max_Almond »

Offline Spingo

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #91 on: December 09, 2018, 04:31:06 PM »
Sun behind the clouds!.....simple editing. Two shots on a time line, mask over the sun, invert, select appropriate blending mode! in other words total fake! You did notice that clouds were going both in front and behind the sun at the same time.

I don't think that's it. More likely the brightness of the sun/moon overwhelming the camera and rendering everything in front of it invisible, like so:


https://www.metabunk.org/explained-why-clouds-appear-behind-the-sun-and-moon.t7084

Look again. In the shot clouds go in front and also behind the sun. What I think as the shot is steady. Locked off on a tripod. Then either the one clip duplicated dragged above and then the process as I described. Possibly?

Offline Spingo

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #92 on: December 09, 2018, 04:32:27 PM »
Sun behind the clouds!.....simple editing. Two shots on a time line, mask over the sun, invert, select appropriate blending mode! in other words total fake! You did notice that clouds were going both in front and behind the sun at the same time.

I don't think that's it. More likely the brightness of the sun/moon overwhelming the camera and rendering everything in front of it invisible, like so:


https://www.metabunk.org/explained-why-clouds-appear-behind-the-sun-and-moon.t7084

Oooo. You shoot on film! Retro man ;-)

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Offline Venus

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #93 on: December 10, 2018, 02:57:29 AM »
I'm not sure.

But given that we can all see the north star - well, 90% of us - I think it's pretty safe to say they believe in that.


I have only ever seen Polaris when I have travelled to the Northern Hemisphere, even in Indonesia when I was just 8 degrees south of the equator Polaris was not visible!
Apparently only 12% of us live south of the equator ... I very much doubt that anyone who has ever traveled to the southern hemisphere and done any serious star gazing down here, and compared it to what you can observe from the northern hemisphere would believe the flat earth model.


There is absolutely NO flat earth explanation of the southern stars, and observations of their movement in the southern hemisphere!


Because I live on the 'bottom' of a spinning spherical earth ...
*I cannot see Polaris, but I can see the Southern Cross
*When I look at the stars they appear to rotate clockwise, not anti-clockwise
*I see the moon 'upside down'
I've travelled to the Northern Hemisphere numerous times ... and seen how different the stars and the moon are 'up' there!
Come on down and check it out FE believers... !!

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Offline RonJ

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #94 on: December 10, 2018, 04:35:46 AM »
If you do the calculations you will find that the Polaris is about 3107 miles above the North Pole.  Every good sailor knows that the nautical mile is the same as 1 minute of Latitude or 1 minute of Longitude, but only at the equator.  This is a well known fact, or sailors would have been getting lost at sea for 100's of years.  Since there are 60 minutes in each degree and 90 degrees from the North Pole to the equator that means there are 60 X 90 = 5400 nautical miles from the North Pole to the equator.  There are 6076 feet in a nautical mile so the distance between the North Pole and the equator is about 6214 statue miles. 

When a sailor is at the 45 degree latitude anywhere on the Flat Earth the angle of elevation of the North Star is always at about 45 degrees.  Of course you may have a little refraction from the air, but I would expect at that elevation to be minor.  The problem for FET is if the sailor were to turn the ship directly to the South and go to the equator then that sailor would see the North Star right at the horizon.  Again there would be more refraction because of the air, but only a couple of degrees at the most.  Now if you do the trigonometry the North Star should be about 26 to 27 degrees above the horizon on the Flat Earth model.  Obviously a big difference between any sailor actually sees and what the math tells you what should happen if the earth were flat. 

Now Popeye may not be the brightest, be he doesn't get lost at sea because he assumes that the North Star will tell him what his latitude is in the Northern Hemisphere.  Popeye assumes that the earth is spherical and eats his spinach.  What else should he say except:   I am what I am and that's all that I am. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Max_Almond

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #95 on: December 10, 2018, 09:04:46 AM »
Look again. In the shot clouds go in front and also behind the sun. What I think as the shot is steady. Locked off on a tripod. Then either the one clip duplicated dragged above and then the process as I described. Possibly?

Nah, I think it's more simple than that. Like the example above, the light of the sun overwhelms the clouds 'in front' of it.

If you do the calculations you will find that the Polaris is about 3107 miles above the North Pole.

That's very good, and also what I thought. But then I did the calculations for some other latitudes and got totally different results.

It's almost as if the flat earth model doesn't work. ;)

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Offline RonJ

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #96 on: December 10, 2018, 08:08:39 PM »
Yes, This is a test that invalidates the flat earth. 

Sailors for 100s of years have used Polaris for navigation.  Sighting have probably has been done a million times and, if properly done, will fix a ship's latitude in the Northern hemisphere each time its tried. Anyone can try this for themselves if they don't believe it. 

On a 45 degree angle the x and y coordinates must be the same.  That's just the definition of that angle. The angle whose tangent equals 1 is always 45 degrees. That's just basic trigonometry.  So if you place Polaris at an equal distance above the North Pole as the distance between the North Pole and the 45 degree latitude line anywhere on the flat earth you will observe that Polaris is 45 degrees above the horizon.  Now by the very definition of latitude lines (flat earth or spherical earth) the equator must be twice that distance.  So if you double the distance x now you have Y / 2X which has to equal 0.5.  The angle whose tangent is 0.5 is 26.565051177 degrees every time you try it. 

What this means is that you can pick any size of flat earth that you decide is correct.  You can place Polaris at that distance above the North Pole that makes the angle above the horizon correct for a sighting on latitude 45 degrees.  Now if you go to any other latitude on the flat earth your latitude measurement by sextant won't be correct. 

Popeye the sailor man would be lost on the flat earth.  In order to be creditable in the future, FET should either alter their definition of their paradigm or maybe just alter trigonometry so the readings sailor get match their actual latitude on the earth as they have been able to prove works for 100's of years.   

Of course this proof only applies to the Northern hemisphere, which has just been proven to be spherical above the equator.

Now it's up to the FET folks to prove using all the Zetitic procedures at your disposal that the statements above are invalid.
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

Online edby

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #97 on: December 10, 2018, 09:00:01 PM »
A question to the sailor people here.

I have been reading through Cook's log book of his second journey to the South. It is clear that while longitude measurement was a big problem, due to the problem of timekeeping, latitude measurement was no problem even in the South. But how did they measure this, given Polaris not visible in the South? At least, so I assume.

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Offline RonJ

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Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #98 on: December 10, 2018, 10:11:45 PM »
Popeye mostly traveled in the Northern hemisphere,  but the sailors who went South of the equator always used the Southern Cross for navigation.  It's not as easy to use as Polaris, but does give somewhat of an idea of the direction of the South Pole. 
For FE no explanation is possible, for RE no explanation is necessary.

LoveScience

Re: What is the altitude of the North Star above the flat plane?
« Reply #99 on: December 10, 2018, 11:58:07 PM »
Yes and of course those sailors would apply appropriate compensation for the difference in angle between the SCP and the stars in Crux.  Sigma Octantis is the nearest reasonably bright star to the south pole of the sky but it is no match for Polaris.  At least we in the north have one advantage over our southern friends!