Max_Almond

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #360 on: June 01, 2018, 08:41:09 AM »
Can't help noticing that most of the perspective lines you've drawn don't follow the lines of the cage.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #361 on: June 01, 2018, 12:37:08 PM »
Good eye. That one turned out warped. I constructed it on site and couldn't get it square.

I drew the lines of perspective from the weld points: half from the rear (yellow) and half from the front (white).  I think it's the two side panels that are bowed or torqued. The lines are straight on the panels themselves, but when put together, there's a slight rotation. It doesn't alter the pass/fail results, but it's not tidy.

The forecast says I should have clear skies this afternoon, so I'm going to try again but with my other cube.

I'm also going to try to get some fluorescent-colored string. Trying to find and align that white twine through the camera is tough.

(What I had done was create a port-a-pack of components to make it easier to carry on a hike, and then construct the cube at a sighting location. It only takes about 10 minutes and makes it easier than lugging it up a trail. I still like the idea, but seeing the results, I don't think I need to make the hike up to the higher elevations, and I didn't anticipate that subsequent cubes might not build out as well as the first. Live and learn. Part of the fun.)

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #362 on: June 01, 2018, 02:46:55 PM »
Today is shaping up to be a good viewing day, so I'm going to make "official" observations for 100', 400' and 800' using both the cube and the water level.

 I appreciate all of the commentary since the start of this topic. If there are any lingering concerns or suggestions, feed them to me now, if you please.

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Offline MCToon

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #363 on: June 01, 2018, 04:45:07 PM »
Today is shaping up to be a good viewing day, so I'm going to make "official" observations for 100', 400' and 800' using both the cube and the water level.

 I appreciate all of the commentary since the start of this topic. If there are any lingering concerns or suggestions, feed them to me now, if you please.

Bobby, your leveled cage is quite similar to the method used in EnaG Experiment #11 where Rowbotham didn't trust a theodolite and instead used an 18 inch iron tube:

"He therefore obtained an iron tube, about 18 inches in length; one end was closed, except a very small aperture in the centre; and at the other end cross-hairs were fixed."

Your descriptions are much more thorough than the descriptions in EnaG.  For example, he doesn't provide specific locations, just "...in various places, and at different altitudes...".  This ambiguity makes Rowbotham's experiments impossible to reproduce, yours are very reproducible.

I cannot see anything wrong with your setup.  It is almost identical to Rowbotham's method in experiment 11.  This should be acceptable for any EnaG adherent.
I love this site, it's a fantastic collection of evidence of a spherical earth:
Flight times
Full moon
Horizon eye level drops
Sinking ship effect

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #364 on: June 02, 2018, 12:07:50 AM »
Not a cloud in a beautiful blue sky, but the horizon has been a blurred haze all day, despite aviation and maritime wx calling it 10+ miles visibility.

Just not the right time of year here, so I'm going to table this "experiment" and report back after I get a good opportunity to record some non-ambiguous observations with my toys.

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #365 on: June 02, 2018, 06:31:04 AM »
Define "eye-level".

And also, we've discussed this at length before and the flat earthers didn't understand any of the evidence presented.
who's gazza711

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #366 on: June 02, 2018, 07:27:01 AM »
Not a cloud in a beautiful blue sky, but the horizon has been a blurred haze all day, despite aviation and maritime wx calling it 10+ miles visibility.

Just not the right time of year here, so I'm going to table this "experiment" and report back after I get a good opportunity to record some non-ambiguous observations with my toys.
I honestly think you've done more than enough already. I note that there has been no FE response to your more recent photos, since some are at sunset there is no way to sensibly claim that the "true horizon" is further away and thus higher.
In the real world this is how progress is made. A hypothesis is suggested (that horizon is always at eye level regardless of altitude), an experiment is done to test that hypothesis, the results either add confidence to that hypothesis (note, not prove) or disprove it. So if your experiments showed the horizon at eye level then it would add confidence to the assertion that horizon is always at eye level. It wouldn't prove it, what if you go higher? The more experiments you do from different altitudes all showing the horizon at eye level, the more confidence you would have.
But your photos don't show that, they very clearly show that horizon dips, and dips more the higher you go. This matches the RE hypothesis and adds confidence to the RE model.

It is frustrating that the FE response so far has been "la, la, la, can't hear you" or just trying to find any tiny seed of doubt to claim your experiments are invalid with no attempt to do any experimenting themselves. But whatever, to pretty much everyone else you have done more than enough to disprove the assertion that the horizon always rises to eye level. Good job, as you Americans say. (English translation: "Well done, old bean" ;) )
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #367 on: June 03, 2018, 01:53:59 AM »
Thanks. And I'm perfectly fine with the nitpicking. It's always good to be challenged. Helps with refinement, and limiting tendencies to just explore for answers you like.

Oh, and I stumbled across a live webcam at Pacific Beach.



I can use this to see how clear the horizon is before trekking out with my gear. Plus, it pans past a palm tree that has a little identifiable indent right that we can use as a crude index to see how much the horizon rises or falls with visibility, all from the comfort of a keyboard.



It doesn't really help with the "eye level" question, but it can help with confidence what the "true horizon" is.
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 02:48:48 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline junker

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #368 on: June 03, 2018, 02:56:50 AM »
Define "eye-level".

And also, we've discussed this at length before and the flat earthers didn't understand any of the evidence presented.
who's gazza711

Refrain from low-content posting in the upper fora. Warned.

Offline Westprog

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #369 on: June 04, 2018, 04:04:05 PM »
It is frustrating that the FE response so far has been "la, la, la, can't hear you" or just trying to find any tiny seed of doubt to claim your experiments are invalid with no attempt to do any experimenting themselves. But whatever, to pretty much everyone else you have done more than enough to disprove the assertion that the horizon always rises to eye level. Good job, as you Americans say. (English translation: "Well done, old bean" ;) )
[/qu

I think you're missing what the purpose of this experiment was. It wasn't primarily to show that the horizon does not, in fact, rise to eye level. We knew that before, and the claim that it does had no supporting evidence and didn't even make any consistent sense to begin with. We knew what the results of the experiments would be. What was really interesting was to see how the FE proponents would deal with the problem of having one of their beliefs disproved.

I know it seems frustrating to not get any kind of engagement with the argument -  but we need to accept that this won't happen, and indeed, it can't. That's not what's going on here. Look at how the perspective thread was moved out of the debate forum because nobody was interested enough to debate it. (Another piece of excellent work which left me a lot better informed.)

I'll add my own congratulations to Bobby Shafto for an excellent piece of work - and he shouldn't feel frustrated at any failure to convince anyone. That's not possible, and thinking it is will just lead to frustration.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #370 on: June 05, 2018, 06:07:46 AM »



This was taken on June 1st when the horizon was moderately clear, but not super sharp.

These were some photographs taken during the same session: same day, same conditions...






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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #371 on: June 05, 2018, 06:25:00 AM »
I've been trying to confirm if I'm understanding the EnaG and TFES Wiki explanation for the horizon (H), and how to calculate its distance from the observer for a given height above the surface.



Distance to H in a flat earth topography has confounded me. I thought I had it figured out, but the calculated distance doesn't mesh with reality. For instance, at 100' viewing elevation it seems that H on a flat surface should be around 65 miles. By contrast, on a globe earth, it figures to be about 13-14 miles, and that's with the help of refraction. 13 vs 65 miles: that's a significant difference.

On June 1st, when the photos above were taken, the horizon was sort of sharp, but certainly not 65 miles worth of sharp. This lack of certainty about whether or not I'm seeing the "true" horizon has made observing whether or not the horizon always rises to eye-level rather elusive.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #372 on: June 05, 2018, 06:45:22 AM »
But take a look at that last photo I posted from June 1st.



Is that ship at or beyond Flat Earth H distance?  If so, then that must be the "true" horizon (which wasn't at eye-level). If not, then it's lower hull shouldn't be yet merging with a "convergence zone."

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #373 on: June 05, 2018, 02:47:06 PM »
...I stumbled across a live webcam at Pacific Beach.

I can use this to see how clear the horizon is before trekking out with my gear. Plus, it pans past a palm tree that has a little identifiable indent right that we can use as a crude index to see how much the horizon rises or falls with visibility, all from the comfort of a keyboard...

It doesn't really help with the "eye level" question, but it can help with confidence what the "true horizon" is.

A few days worth of horizon checks:
« Last Edit: June 05, 2018, 02:49:12 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Offline Tontogary

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #374 on: June 05, 2018, 03:18:21 PM »
...I stumbled across a live webcam at Pacific Beach.

I can use this to see how clear the horizon is before trekking out with my gear. Plus, it pans past a palm tree that has a little identifiable indent right that we can use as a crude index to see how much the horizon rises or falls with visibility, all from the comfort of a keyboard...

It doesn't really help with the "eye level" question, but it can help with confidence what the "true horizon" is.

A few days worth of horizon checks:


I would say the horizon is pretty steady. It does not appear to move up or down, just sharpens somewhat.

Good luck within the observations

Also, if you haven't heard of bronies before, that reflects poorly on your understanding of the world that surrounds you. It's practically impossible not to know about them.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #375 on: June 05, 2018, 05:04:22 PM »
I would say the horizon is pretty steady. It does not appear to move up or down, just sharpens somewhat.

Good luck within the observations
The counter-intuitive one is the brightest day didn't have a cloud in the sky, but that was the one day where the surface marine haze off the coast "lowered" the apparent horizon.

I've also become aware, after observing the Coronado Islands, that there is a standard inversion this time of year that creates an inferior mirage. It's evident on the islands when viewed close to the surface, making the islands appear to "stand up" taller due to the mirroring effect of the lower band of the islands. That makes the apparent horizon appear lower than it actually is. So, that could mean that, without a reference object, like a ship or landmass or lighthouse or something out on the sea horizon, I should probably account for some angular "dip" in the apparent horizon due to that inferior mirage, meaning the actual horizon is slightly higher than seen here.

I'll have to calculate what that would be, confirming, of course, that the atmospheric conditions are, in fact, ripe for such a mirage. You just can't tell looking out at a blank horizon.

Max_Almond

Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #376 on: June 05, 2018, 06:47:31 PM »
Have you tried Mick West's refraction and mirage simulator?

https://www.metabunk.org/simulating-atmospheric-refraction-and-mirages.t7881

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #377 on: June 05, 2018, 07:00:28 PM »
Have you tried Mick West's refraction and mirage simulator?

https://www.metabunk.org/simulating-atmospheric-refraction-and-mirages.t7881
I had not.  Thanks for that. Now I'm going to be distracted for the next 30 minutes playing with that.  ;)

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #378 on: June 06, 2018, 05:21:13 PM »
Rather than wait for Fall conditions when the low horizon visibility is clear enough to see the off shore islands 65 miles away, I propose I use an indicator like the one in the picture (bottom of a ship obscured just beyond point H) to know I've got sufficient viz to record "true" horizon observations.
 
But take a look at that last photo I posted from June 1st.



Is that ship at or beyond Flat Earth H distance?  If so, then that must be the "true" horizon (which wasn't at eye-level). If not, then it's lower hull shouldn't be yet merging with a "convergence zone."

If no flaw in this reasoning, I'll proceed and get this done, despite being in the midst of June Gloom season here.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: The Horizon is Always at Eye Level
« Reply #379 on: June 06, 2018, 09:16:47 PM »


This is what S. Rowbotham reported observing from various floors of the Grand Brighton Hotel in his Experiment #15 of Earth Not a Globe.

The Grand sits about 45’ above the shoreline. Observation heights would have likely been 75-150’



Even if a “dip” in the angle of the horizon from eye level is small, the distance to H is not. Even Rowbotham’s other chapters about perspective and horizon acknowledge that H increases with observer elevation. In globe geometry, that elevation difference extends H about 5 miles. I am not clear how to calculate it in flat earth “natural law of perspective” geometry -- I'm not sure anybody is -- and now here it appears H is constant despite changes in height.

In his Experiment #15, he refutes this figure:


Yet that is precisely what I have observed so far, even at elevations only up to 100’ from sea level.

Rowbotham makes no mention about the sharpness of the horizon, which can be hazy in Brighton too:


« Last Edit: June 06, 2018, 09:33:29 PM by Bobby Shafto »