Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #40 on: April 27, 2018, 10:22:56 AM »
Actually Rushy's answer was what I needed.  Heat pipes are not new for me.  I've been a tech.  I've seen a fuck ton of them.  Hell, my own heatsink has them as does the heat sinks for my last several graphics cards.

See my thinking was that heat is generated not from the amount of actual wattage but when electrons impact a closed gate.  So thus, the more transisters you have, the more calculations you can do, then the more electron impacts you'll have.

If they've managed to make that more efficient, cut down on the amperage or internal voltage or ... whatever, then yeah, less heat.

The idea of heat pipes was already assumed.  After all, you need to move the heat from the CPU and the GPU to a spot away from both to dissipate it since you don't have the space to do it at the chips.

Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #41 on: April 27, 2018, 10:35:27 AM »
Electrons don't heat the chip. The switches move in the chip and that generates the heat. Up the clock speed, more cycles per second, more switches moving, more heat.

Changing the voltage doesn't change the the heat because more electrons, it is because you can up the clock speed making more switches move faster. Its a material bending causing heat thing. As the silicon flexes to shut or open a gate, more heat.

Yes, moving the heat away is the key. Heat pipes are very efficient at this as they take the heat to the exit in laptops etc. In a desktop, your CPU fan likely exhausts the heat into the case raising the ambient temperature. That is what heat pipes try to avoid by getting the heat directly to the exit. If you put a little fan on a cpu in a laptop, it'd cook itself and throttle in no time as the heat wouldn't escape well.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 10:37:32 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #42 on: April 27, 2018, 10:42:13 AM »
a 65W TDP processor from 2001 will run the same temperature as a 65W TDP processor from 2018 if they have the exact same surface area and cooling solution.
This is correct, and what currently happens.

So how is it we can get these 65W TDP chips into laptops and AIOs these days when they make the same heat? Better frickin' heat pipes.
We always shoved ~65W TDP chips into AIOs (though of course that restricts my timeframe to AIOs with LCD screens - CRT would be cheating on my part). You assert a change where there is none.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #43 on: April 27, 2018, 11:06:53 AM »
I kind of want to elaborate on my point to Lord Dave. I just dropped on him that it isn't electrical resistance that heats a chip. It is material bending, That's a really fundamental concept and I didn't give any references.

When I looked for a source, I saw many confirming Lord Dave's misconception and I guess because I have a degree in Engineering I assumed it would be easy to understand. I had an entire semester cocking about with ARM chips back in the day.

I knew this because the formulas for heating a chip don't have resistance in them. They are based on energy transfer. I found a good article here explaining why transitors heat up.

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-CPUs-get-so-hot-relative-to-the-other-components-in-a-computer

Quote from: "https://www.quora.com/Why-do-CPUs-get-so-hot-relative-to-the-other-components-in-a-computer
Recall that the amount of energy stored in a capacitor is CV2/2 where C is the capacitance (a measure of how much charge can be loaded into a capacitor to produce a given field) and V is the voltage across the capacitor. Now, each step of a computation inside a microprocessor is triggered by the edge of a "clock" of a certain frequency f. Each step of that computation will require many of those switches to change their state -- from on to off or off to on. So either energy has to move into those switches or it must be purged from the switches. The CV2/2 energy inside each of those switches that must be purged has to go somewhere. Consequently, it is released as heat. Thus, the power (energy per unit time) lost due to computation is roughly CV2f/2 because each nugget of energy is released each tick of the clock which moves with frequency f.

Notice that I have not discussed resistance, which surely is the mechanism for this energy transfer. You might expect that reducing the resistance of some of the wires in the microprocessor could somehow mitigate this problem. However, there is no variable for resistance in the formulas above.

Ok, on to Pete.

"We've always shoved 65W chips into AIOs". Actually not true. Apple's iMac was one of the first (2002) and their G4 processor in the first LCD iMac was just 18W TDP. They only moved to higher power chips with Intel's i platform but by then it was 2010 and they had great heatpipes and even then they nerfed the clockspeed for many years after choosing the S varients which didn't boost as high. We didn't get a 95W overclockable K series CPU in an imac until 2014.

There was a change. There are far more powerful small PCs and laptops than ever using higher TDP GPUs and CPUs. And the reason is better cooling.


 
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:23:47 AM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Parsifal

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #44 on: April 27, 2018, 11:14:55 AM »
I guess because I have a degree in Engineering I assumed it would be easy to understand.

Thanks for the sig.
How the hell am I supposed to be a moron if I keep educating myself?  >:(

Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #45 on: April 27, 2018, 11:26:01 AM »
Yeah, you can have that.

I guess when you have known something for 20 odd years, you expect it to be common knowledge, but you forget how you acquired that knowledge in the first place. Then you think back to an room with an oscilloscope pulling apart an ARM chip and you realise it probably isn't a normal experience for most people after all.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #46 on: April 27, 2018, 11:29:57 AM »
Apple's iMac was one of the first (2002) and their G4 processor in the first LCD iMac was just 18W TDP.
Again, you successfully cherry-picked an exception and are pretending for it to be the rule. But okay - even if we accept your terms, you agree that your "breakthrough" in iMacs happened about 9-10 years ago with Wolfdale and Lynnfield CPUs. Congratulations, even with layers upon layers of special pleading, you're proving yourself wrong.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:31:55 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #47 on: April 27, 2018, 11:41:32 AM »
I don't understand where you are going with this or what you are trying to pick me up on.

Desktop components in laptops, AIOs and sff PCs are made possible by heatpipes.

Heat pipes didn't become a thing you could buy without thousands of dollars (ie mainstream) until about 2003-2004. Since then the technology for this type of cooling has improved to the point you can now get gtx 1080s and k series processors in laptops and the like. That wasn't possible 10 years ago.

So when Dave asks, why is it that Thork's AIO has similar desktop components to mine and doesn't sound like a hairdryer, the answer is because heat pipe technology has improved in recent years to better deal with the heat. Thork paid more money for the cooling solution to make that possible.

Please, find the objection in this assertion so that we are on the same page.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #48 on: April 27, 2018, 11:53:42 AM »
So when Dave asks, why is it that Thork's AIO has similar desktop components to mine and doesn't sound like a hairdryer, the answer is because heat pipe technology has improved in recent years to better deal with the heat. Thork paid more money for the cooling solution to make that possible.
This assertion is entirely incorrect - it's not a matter of finding a single objection. Your components may be similar in performance to what Dave has (though I don't think he's actually said that), but they are 65W TDP, which is remarkable for their power. In the past, a powerful CPU was a very hot CPU. Nowadays, a powerful CPU is a lukewarm CPU, and the hot ones are rarely used in regular customer applications.

Obviously the use of heat pipes will help displace the heat to a fan, but the fan will still need to be there to eventually dissipate it into the air. So yes, while your 10-year-old breakthrough makes some of the logistics simple, it doesn't in any way reduce the need for heat dissipation. That's where a relatively lower power usage comes in.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #49 on: April 27, 2018, 12:03:19 PM »
Oh, I think I see what you are saying and I still disagree.

You are saying that my desktop CPU is giving me great performance and so it does more for the package it is in. In the past I would have needed a 140W processor to get that kind of functioanlity for gaming etc. And with that I agree.

But its still just a standard 65W desktop processor. Mainstream. And those were not put in laptops etc 10 years ago. We still have 95W higher end and 140W extreme processors today (skylake X is 140W i believe), but the fact is the mainstream has been 65W for donkeys years and you couldn't get those into a laptop before. Nor could you get high end graphic solutions into small devices. Now you can.
This isn't because the 65W processors push out less heat today. We discussed TDP and agreed they push out the same.

But today, Lord Dave can look at his tower and know for the first time in history (last 5 years or so), that there are many laptops out there that would kick its arse because they too can enjoy mainstream processors and high end GPU solutions. That wasn't the way it always was. You couldn't play Far Cry on high settings on a laptop when it first came out. The laptops of the day were too shit. Now they don't have lower power parts in the top end versions. They have a power brick the size of a breeze block and they are able to shift all that heat away, where before they couldn't.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 12:05:08 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #50 on: April 27, 2018, 12:11:13 PM »
But its still just a standard 65W desktop processor. Mainstream. And those were not put in laptops etc 10 years ago.
But they were put in AiOs 9-10 years ago.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #51 on: April 27, 2018, 12:20:20 PM »
And they were really noisy.

I had a Shuttle PC of the same era. They had got the tech in, but the heat was still a major issue and an AIO is much larger than a laptop. The first laptops to do this a while back used to burn your thighs. Today the same TDPs can be dealt with much more efficiently and make less noise. Because the heat pipe tech is better. And so now less noise and less burnt legs means more consumers want the power without the drawbacks and we see far more of that stuff going on.
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #52 on: April 27, 2018, 12:24:38 PM »
Thanks, Thork.  That article was helpful.  It's not dissimilar from what I thought but different mechanics.

This means that the efficiency was increased either by having less need to switch the gates as much or lower carge amounts across the gates.  Lower charge = less heat.


Also:
Heat pipes probably have become more efficient at thermal transfer but it's likely not as big of a deal as the chip efficiency.

Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #53 on: April 27, 2018, 12:34:19 PM »
Die shrinks are usually the best way. You normally see the biggest leaps when they shrink the architecture. So move from say 14nm to 10nm. This means more transistors on the same die (twice as many) SQRT[2], but those transistors are all smaller so you get the same heat. And so it takes less energy to open and close them, and they release less heat when they give up that energy. Twice as many transistors, same heat output. More grunt for same TDP.

Also:
Heat pipes probably have become more efficient at thermal transfer but it's likely not as big of a deal as the chip efficiency.
Please let's not go back there. They have the same TDP today, so same heat output. That didn't change. It is all about the cooling solution.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 12:37:26 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #54 on: April 27, 2018, 12:58:19 PM »
Please let's not go back there. They have the same TDP today, so same heat output. That didn't change. It is all about the cooling solution.
No, we have to go back there, because you're still hilariously wrong about this. Back in the day, a 65W TDP CPU was a relatively crap CPU. Now, a 65W TDP CPU is a relatively decent CPU. In both cases, we are comparing them to their contemporaries. That's the main factor that changed. You could have had a quiet AiO 10 years ago, but it would pale in comparison to a big-ass desktop. Now, you can have a quiet AiO that can somewhat compete with one.

Yes, hotter CPUs existed back then, and they exist today, but it is much, much easier to get some decent performance with the same low amount of heat that would previously come out of a low-mid-end machine.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:03:24 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #55 on: April 27, 2018, 01:40:53 PM »
I can't believe I have to spell this out.

Lets look at a game like Far Cry.

To get good frame rates (graphics aside), back in the day you needed a desktop CPU. And that would be fine because Far Cry would run on the mainstream desktop CPUs of the day.

Today there is Far Cry 5 or whatever they are up to. To get decent frame rates, you need a desktop CPU as you always did. Because spoiler ... not only are the CPUs better today, so are the games. And the operating systems, and productivity programs and evrything else.

Now, when developers optimize their products, they look at the tech of the day. They'll say "Hmmmm. What is the shittiest PCs people are likely to have right now?" Say an average PC from 5 years before. And they'll then make the game work for that on low settings and write down what those settings were and call them minimum requirements.
Then they'll say "Ok, so what is an average PC of today like?" and they'll make the medium settings of the game work for that hardware and call it recommended settings.
Then they'll say "We need to sell this game and so we want it to look boss. What are the best PCs enthusiast gamers have right now?" and they'll make sure their game with all settings at ultra match the best GPU and CPU combos of the day for the best gameplay experience possible.

Now, whether that was in 2001 or 2018 the recommended settings are going to be based on a 65W desktop processor of that day. Historically Intel's mainstream desktop offering.

So, if you want recommended settings in 2001 you needed a 65W desktop CPU, but those weren't in laptops back then because of heat. But today they are in the laptops and so ... you can play games with recommended settings and enjoy the top titles of today without turning everything down to low.

And so ... because you can get desktop CPUs and GPU chips into sff and laptop devices, you can now for the first time enjoy the same experience as a desktop user ... and your device will be filled with heat pipes to make that happen.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:46:53 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #56 on: April 27, 2018, 01:52:02 PM »
Now, whether that was in 2001 or 2018 the recommended settings are going to be based on a 65W desktop processor of that day. Historically Intel's mainstream desktop offering.
It doesn't matter how many times you spell it out. This continues to be incorrect. The "average" PC back then ran much hotter than an "average" PC does now.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 01:53:43 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2018, 01:58:22 PM »
Not if it had a 65W TDP processor in it ... which has been the mainstream offering from Intel since the P4 was released. Before that P3's were about 35W from what I remember.

the reason AMDs like the Bulldozer always ran hot is because they couldn't compete on IPC so they ramped up the power. They were hotter and had higher TDPs. The FX-8350 was 125W TDP! Those things were toasty, but not intel.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 02:01:16 PM by Baby Thork »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2018, 02:01:46 PM »
Actually Rushy's answer was what I needed.  Heat pipes are not new for me.  I've been a tech.  I've seen a fuck ton of them.  Hell, my own heatsink has them as does the heat sinks for my last several graphics cards.

See my thinking was that heat is generated not from the amount of actual wattage but when electrons impact a closed gate.  So thus, the more transisters you have, the more calculations you can do, then the more electron impacts you'll have.

If they've managed to make that more efficient, cut down on the amperage or internal voltage or ... whatever, then yeah, less heat.

The idea of heat pipes was already assumed.  After all, you need to move the heat from the CPU and the GPU to a spot away from both to dissipate it since you don't have the space to do it at the chips.

Watts = Voltage * Amperes. A modern CPU uses a vcore of about 1.2V (this highly depends on the CPU) so the current of a 65W TDP maxes out at around 54A. The current in a CPU is pretty wild and hard to monitor, so basically you should never bother wondering what it is. Also, the heat output of any given electronic circuit equals its wattage. A circuit that doesn't use energy doesn't output heat, and a circuit that uses energy outputs 100% of said energy as heat. A 1000W computer is also a 1000W spaceheater.

The key energy savings in a modern CPU isn't the TDP (the TDPs are actually about the same). The key is that the modern CPU does a lot more with the same energy, meaning tasks that used to work a CPU to death are now very, very easy. Things like running a busy OS (such as Wondows 10), outputting 4k video, and other seemingly heavy tasks are now pretty much nothing for a modern CPU. Unless you're purposefully stressing the CPU, or you doing video encoding or compiling or some other workstation task, then the CPU will never hit its TDP, whereas in the past, processors idled at their TDP because clock-gating and turbo boosting weren't feasible. An older 65W TDP CPU used 65W almost all the time, while a modern one only uses its TDP at max usage, which it will seldom experience under most circumstances.

Modern CPUs are just in general better at managing their energy usage. They're still fully capable of being loud, obnoxious power hogs, but thanks to modern power management techniques, they won't be 99% of the time, and basically 100% of the time for people who aren't power users.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 02:05:01 PM by Rushy »

Re: Ordered a new computer
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2018, 02:07:16 PM »
Watts = Voltage * Amperes. A modern CPU uses a vcore of about 1.2V (this highly depends on the CPU) so the current of a 65W TDP maxes out at around 54A. The current in a CPU is pretty wild and hard to monitor, so basically you should never bother wondering what it is. Also, the heat output of any given electronic circuit equals its wattage. A circuit that doesn't use energy doesn't output heat, and a circuit that uses energy outputs 100% of said energy as heat. A 1000W computer is also a 1000W spaceheater.
TDP Watts isn't power consumption. It is a heat guide as in one watt = one joule per second. Pete made the same conflation earlier. A 65W processor is not using 65W from the wall, it is throwing out 65W of heat. TDP. Thermal Power design.

The key energy savings in a modern CPU isn't the TDP (the TDPs are actually about the same).
Great. hopefully Pete will read this.

The key is that the modern CPU does a lot more with the same energy, meaning tasks that used to work a CPU to death are now very, very easy. Things like running a busy OS (such as Wondows 10), outputting 4k video, and other seemingly heavy tasks are now pretty much nothing for a modern CPU. Unless you're purposefully stressing the CPU, or you doing video encoding or compiling or some other workstation task, then the CPU will never hit its TDP, whereas in the past, processors idled at their TDP because clock-gating and turbo boosting weren't feasible.

Modern CPUs are just in general better at managing their energy usage. They're still fully capable of being loud, obnoxious power hogs, but thanks to modern power management techniques, they won't be 99% of the time, and basically 100% of the time for people who aren't power users.
Agreed but when you do something like gaming, you are usually knocking close to the limit with a good GPU. CPU bottle necking is a thing on low resolutions with fast GPUs. A gtx 1080 running a game at 1080p will probably push enough frames to overwhelm most 65W TDP processors.
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