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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #360 on: April 27, 2018, 10:01:58 PM »
Quote
Why what? Why is a different part of the earth pointing toward the sun and being illuminated by it compared to the start?

We are just talking about the day and night cycle, that has a period of 24 hours, not a "part of the earth."

Why what? Why is a different part of the earth pointing toward the sun and being illuminated by it compared to the start?

Overlaying your polar view image on a picture of static globe with the illumination side rotating around it...[/color]

http://oi67.tinypic.com/24xm4jq.jpg

...are you asking why the rotating illumination isn't over the same part of the earth as it was at the start?

This has little to do with the "same part of the earth" that needs to be lined up. The day and night cycle of 24 hours does not match up to the Solar Year. The illuminated portion in the day and night cycle is misaligned with the sun if, when the earth returns to the Equinox point on the earth's path, there has not been a full Solar Day.
I don't understand.

Here's your polar view of a generic earth with no identification of where or when the solar day begins in relationship to the physical earth surface. It's solar noon somewhere on the planet at 00:00. And if this is point A on the orbital plane at equinox, then the sun is illuminating the earth from a point over the equator on the  right "half" of the 00:00 planet, viewing it from this angle.

Start solar day and solar year clocks.



This is your chosen frame of reference for viewing the solar day cycle: a static earth and sun's illumination sweeping around the globe. That's fine. Each one of these cycles we agree is a solar day.

At the end of 365 of these solar days, the earth is oriented back like in the 00:00 image.
1. But is the earth back at Point A on the orbit?
2. Has a solar year elapsed yet?
3. Is the sun crossing the equator with the conclusion of this 365th solar day cycle?
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:23:37 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #361 on: April 27, 2018, 10:19:36 PM »
At the end of 365 of these solar days, the earth is oriented back like in the 00:00 image.
1. But is the the earth back at Point A on the orbit?
2. Has a solar year elapsed yet?
3. Is the sun crossing the equator with the conclusion of this 365th solar day cycle?
I'll go ahead and give you my answers and we'll see if yours compare.

1. No. The earth has not completed it's full orbital journey yet on that 365th solar day.
2. No. The solar year hasn't concluded yet even though the 365th solar day has.
3. No. Wherever over the earth the sun is illuminating that side of the planet, it is still N of the equator, however slightly. The Point A intersection of the ecliptic/equatorial plane and the earth's orbital path hasn't been intersected yet.

Using a N view of a static earth with sun's illumination rotating the face of the earth, the sun won't reach the equator until just under 6 hours later. While the sun's approaching the equator, it's light keeps rotating around the earth until:


There's the equinox. There's the conclusion to the solar year. It takes fraction of the 366th solar day for the sun to finally reach a point directly overhead on the equator, which means the earth has completed one solar year orbit around the sun.

I look forward to seeing your take on these questions. Perhaps it'll help identify what you see as the problem (or why my understanding is incorrect that blinds me from the problem).
« Last Edit: April 27, 2018, 11:24:11 PM by Bobby Shafto »

Macarios

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #362 on: April 28, 2018, 12:59:56 AM »
It's not the same side of the physical world. The earth needs to be lit from the same side side as in starts in the diagram.

It is the same side, but not at the exactly same spot.

Explain yourself difference between Calendar year and Tropical year.

After full Solar day Sun is crossing Meridian.
After full Tropical year Sun is crossing Parallel.
There is no gear in the vacuum of space to synchronize these two different motions.

EDIT: If you still insist on gear, take small one with four teeth: morning, noon, evening, midnight.
Now, big one would have 1441 1461 (NOT 1440 1460) teeth around.
So, each four teeth are for one day of small gear, and the last 1441st 1461st is those "6 missing hours".
Calendar year is 365 rotations of small gear (1440 1460 teeth).
We wake up, go to work, go back home, go to sleep by rotations of small gear.
Tropical year is 365.25 rotations of small gear (full circle on 1441 1461 teeth).
We plow our land, and now also go to vacations, by seasons, not by days.
After one Calendar year "noon" will point 1 tooth less than full circle.
After one more Calendar year "noon" will point one more tooth earlier (2 teeth less than full circle).
In fourth year we have to count one more rotation (4 more teeth) to have our Calendar year point to the original first tooth of Tropical year.
That is just because we don't want July 1st to be in winter, we will not have warm sea in Belize then.

For example, Arabic calendar doesn't make those corrections. Their months circulate through the whole year and each month can be in any season.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_calendar
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 05:47:44 AM by Macarios »

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #363 on: April 28, 2018, 07:12:29 AM »
You CAN'T explain it.
Well, not in a way you can understand, apparently. But I honestly think that says more about you than me.
You are the only person in this thread who thinks there is anything to explain here.

Quote
The illuminated portion of the earth spins around 365.25 times in a Solar Year.

Correct. Well, close enough. The whole earth spins 365.25 (roughly) times in a Solar Year.
That is 365.25 Solar Days. That's what a Solar Day IS - it's a rotation of the earth.
And a Solar Year is how long it takes the earth to orbit the sun. It takes 365.25 times as long to do that as it does to rotate on its axis.

Quote
The illuminated portion needs to be pointing at the sun when it reaches the point it started from.
No it doesn't. That would only be true if there were exactly 365 solar days in a solar year, or some other integer. But there aren't.
So if the sun is exactly overhead, say, New York at the start of one solar year it will not be at the start of the next, it will have been overhead about 6 hours previously.
You are the only person who sees this as a problem.

This is the entire reason we have leap years, to keep things in sync.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #364 on: April 28, 2018, 06:19:00 PM »

Above: Simple view of how the sun's illumination rotates around a globe earth during a single day, from a N pole view of the earth (northern hemisphere only in view).

Below: Simple view of how the sun's illumination circles around a flat earth during a single day, from a God's eye view of the earth (whole earth in view).


Despite the obvious differences, are these two versions of a day on earth of the same duration? Of course, right?

On flat earth, is the sun directly overhead the same point on earth after 525,600 minutes ("how do you measure...measure a year?")

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #365 on: April 28, 2018, 07:34:49 PM »
Bobby and AllAround, you seem to have the same argument. This is how I have interpreted your argument. Correct me if I am wrong:

Response. The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

At Day 365 the lit side of the earth is pointing at the sun. At Day 365.24, with a static sun, the lit side stays pointed at the sun and earth has simply rotates a quarter of the way around while the lit side remains pointing at the sun.

My Reponse. That would mean we would have to set our clocks to be 6 hours ahead every year, to keep Solar Time (which our clocks are based on) consistent.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 07:37:26 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #366 on: April 28, 2018, 08:19:04 PM »
Bobby says "yes."

Except we don't. We wait every fourth year and our clocks a whole day ahead then (4x6 hrs)


Mark me wrong. The answer is actually "no." I explained why, later, after Tom's follow-up made me think it through; but I didn't realize until just now (after reading Macarios' response) that I was contradicting this earlier reply.

I owe someone a pint.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:07:16 AM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #367 on: April 28, 2018, 08:42:02 PM »
Bobby says "yes."

Except we don't. We wait every fourth year and our clocks a whole day ahead then (4x6 hrs)

If we don't reset our clocks then what we thinks as 12pm at the beginning of the equinox start point is now at 6pm. Does that not seem like an issue?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #368 on: April 28, 2018, 08:51:02 PM »
Quote
Response. The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

Yes, a solar day is one rotation of the earth.

After 365 of those the earth is nearly back where it started in its orbit around the sun but not quite, it takes (roughly) another 6 hours to get there.
We start a new year at the end of the 365th day though which would mean, over time, the seasons would get out of sync with our calendar.
After 4 years it's a whole day out of sync - this is why the dates of the equinoxes and solstices vary from year to year. So to sort that out we add the extra leap day and we're back in sync again.

Except not quite, as you say it's 365.24, not .25, it' not exactly a quarter
So to sort that out there are some extra rules: If the year is a century then we do NOT have a leap year UNLESS the century also divides by 4.
So 1900 was NOT a leap year, 2000 was, 2100 won't be.

And more recently as we've got even more accurate measurements of earth's orbit they've started adding leap seconds to keep everything in sync.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_second
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:10:57 PM by AllAroundTheWorld »
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #369 on: April 28, 2018, 09:24:40 PM »
Bobby says "yes."

Except we don't. We wait every fourth year and our clocks a whole day ahead then (4x6 hrs)

If we don't reset our clocks then what we thinks as 12pm at the beginning of the equinox start point is now at 6pm. Does that not seem like an issue?
No, because if the equinox was at 12pm local time last year, it'll be at around 6pm local time this year.

The point of equinox moves. That's why the time of equinox changes.

Where are you? Bay area, right? The last March equinox for you was at 9:15AM on March 20th, 2019
The next March equinox for you will be at 2:58PM, March 20th, 2019.
For the entire globe, the March equinox will be at 21:58 UTC, and to know when that is for you, you adjust according to your longitude. The equinox (the point at which the sun is crossing the celestial equator) is on a meridian where it's solar noon at that moment -- the side of the earth that's facing the sun, thus being illuminated by it when that event happens.

The next vernal equinox will occur somewhere out over the Pacific, where on some meridian it will be solar noon. It won't be solar noon for you, so don't reset your clocks. We don't set our clocks by the solar year. We set them by the solar day. The calendar year is a different story. We do reset them: every four years to try to recage our calendar to the solar year, because of the annual drift westward of the equinox (which is due to the fact we are not completing a full orbit around the sun in an even 365 days.
« Last Edit: April 28, 2018, 09:27:09 PM by Bobby Shafto »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #370 on: April 28, 2018, 09:45:10 PM »
According to the flat earth model, Tom, all this ecliptic plane, equatorial plane, earth rotation and sun orbiting is nonsense. According to FET, the sun circles on its own plane above the plane of a flat earth. What dictates the motion of the sun? Who knows? Doesn't matter. What matters is that the sun follows a pattern. (Right?)

From a FET perspective, the sun spirals annually between the Tropics of Cancer and Capricorn. Spring equinox is when the sun is at the equatorial circle on it's spiral from the Tropic of Capricorn inward toward the Tropic of Cancer. The Autumnal equinox is when the sun is at the equatorial circle spiraling away from the centroid of earth, toward the Tropic of Capricorn.

It'll make that equatorial crossing over a specific point over flat earth. Is that the same point every year? Or does flat earth agree with globe earth that that point will migrate year to year, roughly about 1/4 way around the circle of the equator each year?

Globe and flat earth years are both 365 calendar days. Even on flat earth, if that equinox point keeps changing without adjustment via leap years, the "spiral" from equinox to solstice to equinox to solstice (etc) will fall out of sync with the calendar. Even if the mechanism for that equinox drift isn't known, flat earth must agree that these leap year adjustments are necessary to keep the calendar in sync with the seasons.

Yes? Or is it no? Does flat earth model say that the year is 365 and equinox is at the same time and occurs over the same place on earth every year?

If it isn't "no" and the timing of flat earth agrees with the timing of globe earth, then flat earth is experiencing this same "extra time" that you find troublesome.

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #371 on: April 28, 2018, 09:48:05 PM »
Bobby says "yes."

Except we don't. We wait every fourth year and our clocks a whole day ahead then (4x6 hrs)

If we don't reset our clocks then what we thinks as 12pm at the beginning of the equinox start point is now at 6pm. Does that not seem like an issue?
If you cannot get your questions answered then why not look elsewhere?

Macarios

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #372 on: April 29, 2018, 05:50:55 AM »
Bobby and AllAround, you seem to have the same argument. This is how I have interpreted your argument. Correct me if I am wrong:

Response. The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

At Day 365 the lit side of the earth is pointing at the sun. At Day 365.24, with a static sun, the lit side stays pointed at the sun and earth has simply rotates a quarter of the way around while the lit side remains pointing at the sun.

My Reponse. That would mean we would have to set our clocks to be 6 hours ahead every year, to keep Solar Time (which our clocks are based on) consistent.

No, it wouldn't. It means we end our Calendar year before it reaches orbital position.
We end our Calendar year before Earth reaches end of Tropical year.
We don't move our clock, we every 4 years count one more day.

EDIT: You still haven't learned the difference between Calendar year and Tropical year.
« Last Edit: April 29, 2018, 06:38:13 AM by Macarios »

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Offline Bobby Shafto

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #373 on: April 29, 2018, 06:00:11 AM »
Bobby and AllAround, you seem to have the same argument. This is how I have interpreted your argument. Correct me if I am wrong:

Response. The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

At Day 365 the lit side of the earth is pointing at the sun. At Day 365.24, with a static sun, the lit side stays pointed at the sun and earth has simply rotates a quarter of the way around while the lit side remains pointing at the sun.

My Reponse. That would mean we would have to set our clocks to be 6 hours ahead every year, to keep Solar Time (which our clocks are based on) consistent.

No, it wouldn't. It means we end our Calendar year before it reaches orbital position.
We end our Calendar year before Earth reaches end of Tropical year.
We don't move our clock, we every 4 years count one more day.
Macarios is right. I was wrong earlier to answer "yes," though my subsequent explanation for why we don't change our clocks mates with Macarios' answer.

I change my answer to "Bobby says no"

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #374 on: April 30, 2018, 12:11:17 AM »
Quote
Response: The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

At Day 365 the lit side of the earth is pointing at the sun. At Day 365.24, with a static sun, the lit side stays pointed at the sun and earth has simply rotates a quarter of the way around while the lit side remains pointing at the sun.

There is another problem with this response. We can't assume a static sun that is casting light in one direction on a spinning ball. In the scenario the earth is spinning at 24 hours per day and it is also going around the sun. The lit area isn't static on the earth over the year. This is another variable and messes up the assumption in that response.

The scenario doesn't work if we think of the lit portion of the earth is spinning at once per day. It doesn't line up with the sun on the diagram at the end.

Nor does it work if we think of a sun that is going around the earth. Same as above. It doesn't line up in the end on a diagram.

It might seemingly work if you think of a static sun and spinning earth; but that is not taking into account the geometrical nature of the the circular orbit and the illumination of light - that light isn't static on the spinning ball. There is more work that needs to be done there.
« Last Edit: April 30, 2018, 12:54:54 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #375 on: April 30, 2018, 07:22:36 AM »
Quote
Response: The Solar Day, which is the rate the sun moves around a static earth (once per 24 hours), can also be thought of as the rate of the earth's rotation against a static sun (once per 24 hours).

At Day 365 the lit side of the earth is pointing at the sun. At Day 365.24, with a static sun, the lit side stays pointed at the sun and earth has simply rotates a quarter of the way around while the lit side remains pointing at the sun.

There is another problem with this response. We can't assume a static sun that is casting light in one direction on a spinning ball. In the scenario the earth is spinning at 24 hours per day and it is also going around the sun. The lit area isn't static on the earth over the year. This is another variable and messes up the assumption in that response.

The scenario doesn't work if we think of the lit portion of the earth is spinning at once per day. It doesn't line up with the sun on the diagram at the end.

Nor does it work if we think of a sun that is going around the earth. Same as above. It doesn't line up in the end on a diagram.

It might seemingly work if you think of a static sun and spinning earth; but that is not taking into account the geometrical nature of the the circular orbit and the illumination of light - that light isn't static on the spinning ball. There is more work that needs to be done there.


Sorry, why would we be considering a static sun casting light in just one direction? I'm not sure what model that represents.

Also could you clarify that last paragraph? The light isn't static on a spinning ball?

I think one thing that is over complicating this discussion is the switching between ref points of what is moving and what is static.

As your point is attempting to show a problem with a heliocentric globe earth it may help the discussion to stick to a spinning earth orbiting a static sun.

Just a suggestion.

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: Possible Issue with Solar Noon in Round Earth Theory
« Reply #376 on: April 30, 2018, 08:54:48 AM »
We can't assume a static sun that is casting light in one direction on a spinning ball.

Why not?


In the scenario the earth is spinning at 24 hours per day and it is also going around the sun. The lit area isn't static on the earth over the year. This is another variable and messes up the assumption in that response.

No, this is taken into account in the difference between sidereal day and solar day. See that Wiki that was referred to in the early pages again.

The scenario doesn't work if we think of the lit portion of the earth is spinning at once per day. It doesn't line up with the sun on the diagram at the end.

Again - difference between calendar year and tropical year
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Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
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Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?