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Offline Fortuna

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #100 on: May 02, 2018, 07:52:38 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Yeah, sometimes it’s necessary. I’m talking about people who kill without justification or orders.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #101 on: May 02, 2018, 08:12:56 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Yeah, sometimes it’s necessary. I’m talking about people who kill without justification or orders.
Sooo...
A person who comitts first or second degree murder.

What if they're literally crazy.  Like holes in their brain, hearing voices, etc... crazy?  Like "I can't tell reality from non-reality"

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #102 on: May 02, 2018, 09:50:53 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.

I understand that if you have conscription but if you’re signing up to do ittyen you are complicit in the choice. It’s not just orders.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #103 on: May 03, 2018, 08:37:10 AM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Nope. Police are trained to shoot to stop the threat. the fastest and easiest way to do that is to shoot center mass.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #104 on: May 03, 2018, 11:05:52 AM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Nope. Police are trained to shoot to stop the threat. the fastest and easiest way to do that is to shoot center mass.
Yes.
Are you saying they don't intentionally point their gun at a person and fire?  Cause I'm 100% sure they don't accidentally shoot people.  They totally aim center mass to stop the threat, yes.  Center mass also happens to have vital organs.
So it's pretty intentional.

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Offline Luke 22:35-38

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #105 on: May 03, 2018, 11:26:09 AM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Nope. Police are trained to shoot to stop the threat. the fastest and easiest way to do that is to shoot center mass.
Yes.
Are you saying they don't intentionally point their gun at a person and fire?  Cause I'm 100% sure they don't accidentally shoot people.  They totally aim center mass to stop the threat, yes.  Center mass also happens to have vital organs.
So it's pretty intentional.

I'm not arguing whether they intend to shoot. That's a given. My contention is the idea that they are trained to shoot to kill. which is not true. They shoot to stop the threat. If he lives, so be it. If he dies, so be it. the threat was stopped and that all the cop is trained and cares about.
Isaiah 40:22 "It is he that sitteth upon the CIRCLE of the earth"

Scripture, science, facts, stats, and logic is how I argue

Evolutionism is a religion. Can dumb luck create a smart brain?

Please PM me to explain sunsets.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #106 on: May 03, 2018, 12:08:08 PM »
Including soldiers?

No. Your country is ordering you to kill. It would be pretty fucked up if it then charged you as a criminal for that order.
What about cops?
Cops kill people intentionally.

Nope. Police are trained to shoot to stop the threat. the fastest and easiest way to do that is to shoot center mass.
Yes.
Are you saying they don't intentionally point their gun at a person and fire?  Cause I'm 100% sure they don't accidentally shoot people.  They totally aim center mass to stop the threat, yes.  Center mass also happens to have vital organs.
So it's pretty intentional.

I'm not arguing whether they intend to shoot. That's a given. My contention is the idea that they are trained to shoot to kill. which is not true. They shoot to stop the threat. If he lives, so be it. If he dies, so be it. the threat was stopped and that all the cop is trained and cares about.

You are now talking about some theoretically ideal cop.  Some cops behave like you say and I am glad to ahve those, and then some put 6 more rounds in to someone who is on the ground.  Sometimes, it may be necessary, sometimes not, but that is trying to subdue someone, they are trying to kill them.  Even the cop who is putting a round in to center mass knows that there is a significant non-zero chance that person will die too.

Also, how many trials where a person has shot another person does not carry an attempted murder charge?  I don't know the answer and think it would be instructive to know.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #107 on: May 03, 2018, 02:10:10 PM »
Attempted murder involves intent, Rama Set. If you shoot someone, and you didn't intend to kill them, then that's assault with a deadly weapon, not attempted murder. An attempted murder charge can be very difficult to prove in court versus assault because one only requires the act be proven, and the other requires both the act and intent be proven.

Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #108 on: May 03, 2018, 03:14:03 PM »
Holy shit, Trump is (maybe) bowing to pressure!

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-02-21/bump-stock-prices-soar-after-trump-proposes-ban

Watch the video.  Even the NRA, on Fox News, agrees with addition regulations for bump stocks!

Banning bump stocks won't do anything. You can make your own from supplies from Home Depot.


I am aware.
Doesn't mean it isn't a step.  I can only hope its used as a springboard to other bans.

And you just validated my concerns as to why I'm not in favor of the ban. If you succeed with this, you won't be happy until you're three miles down the road.
I won't be happy until kids can go to school without having to worry they'll be shot at.


And if you feel your guns are more important than that, then you don't deserve a future.

Why do you think that banning guns is the only solution to stopping school shootings? Better school security and allowing teachers to arm themselves May be just as effective.
Hi y'all. I am a typical GENIUS girl who does NOT follow the masses and who does NOT blindly accept what is told to me without EVIDENCE. That being said, I don't believe in a lot of "facts" (the quotations mean they're NOT actual facts) including evolution, the holocaust, and the globular earth HYPOTHESIS.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #109 on: May 03, 2018, 03:44:12 PM »
Why do you think that banning guns is the only solution to stopping school shootings? Better school security and allowing teachers to arm themselves May be just as effective.

It's not the only solution, but I feel it's the best(of many that need doing) solution at this time.
The cons of armed teachers, in my opinion, outweigh the Pros.
Pro - Teachers can shoot other shooters on sight.
Pro -  Lower cost than hiring someone to protect the school.
Pro - Teachers feel safer.

Cons - Teachers become a primary target both for active shooters AND for law enforcement. (As said law enforcement may not know if a teacher is the active shooter)
Cons - Teachers may try to go at it alone and leave their students alone.
Cons - There's a gun in the classroom or hallway that could be stolen at any given time. 

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #110 on: May 04, 2018, 11:35:12 PM »
Cons - Teachers become a primary target both for active shooters AND for law enforcement. (As said law enforcement may not know if a teacher is the active shooter)

What exactly stopped a teacher from being the shooter anyway? Mass shootings aren't an out-of-the-blue phenomenon, they're planned events. A teacher could just as easily bring a gun to school right now as it is.

Cons - Teachers may try to go at it alone and leave their students alone.

I'm sure they're better off with an equally scared, unarmed adult!

Cons - There's a gun in the classroom or hallway that could be stolen at any given time.

This assumes that the teacher isn't carrying the weapon at all times. Having each classroom store the weapon somewhere easily accessible but not actually on a person would be very dumb.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Another big Mass Shooting
« Reply #111 on: May 05, 2018, 05:22:26 AM »
Cons - Teachers become a primary target both for active shooters AND for law enforcement. (As said law enforcement may not know if a teacher is the active shooter)

What exactly stopped a teacher from being the shooter anyway? Mass shootings aren't an out-of-the-blue phenomenon, they're planned events. A teacher could just as easily bring a gun to school right now as it is.
That's kinda my point.  When the police arrive, they're gonna shoot anyone holding a gun because that teacher could be the shooter.  Better safe than sorry.

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Cons - Teachers may try to go at it alone and leave their students alone.

I'm sure they're better off with an equally scared, unarmed adult!

They are.  Authority figures help keep people calm in a crisis.  Especially depending on the age of the students.  You think a group of 8 year olds would be better served being locked in a classroom alone?
And that's to say nothing of what happens if a shooter kills a teacher leaving his classroom.  A nice, open door.  A set of keys to open more doors.
A locked door has proven very effective against mass shooters.

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Cons - There's a gun in the classroom or hallway that could be stolen at any given time.

This assumes that the teacher isn't carrying the weapon at all times. Having each classroom store the weapon somewhere easily accessible but not actually on a person would be very dumb.

Actually I was assuming it was on their person at all times.  Ever seen a fight between high schoolers?  Some of those are brutal and unless you're a tough person, breaking it up is not easy.  All you need are two decently strong students and you can take anything off a teacher.