Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #120 on: April 04, 2018, 11:46:29 AM »
Treep, the sinking ship effect is covered in ENaG. Please familiarise yourself with the theory you're trying to satirise.
Thank you. I'm sorry but Mr. Samuel did not pretend he did not see curve.

Mr. Samual wrote his book roundabouts 1860. Made respectable observations. Knowledge is gained by experience. To state that we have stopped experiencing for over 100 years kind of silly. Occam's Razor would say: I assume more knowledge has been gained since. To say gaining of knowledge stopped in 1860 is simply allowed to be called 'ignorant'.

Mr. Samual was using rationalization - speculation and conjecture to arrive at the conclusion. Not following proper flat earth process, which is observe and experience, make direct conclusion from that or otherwise leave subject as unknown.

Would be better saying: I see perspective I cannot explain. Maybe earth is round, maybe not, maybe other phenomena that I don't understand, but maybe found out about in the next 100 years of science. I leave the subject as unknown.

For example, did he see out to 30 statute mile like this gentleman?

Maybe perspective maybe not, but simple mathematics cannot be used to be argued against round earth. Better to leave subject unknown.



« Last Edit: April 25, 2018, 12:03:22 PM by Treep Ravisaras »
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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #121 on: April 04, 2018, 11:59:25 AM »
Treep, the sinking ship effect is covered in ENaG. Please familiarise yourself with the theory you're trying to satirise.
It is, but his explanation isn't borne out by reality. He mixes up a ship which is a long way away and you can't distinguish a dark hull from a dark sea (yes, that can be seen by optical zoom but it isn't "restored", it wasn't hidden in the first place) and a ship which is actually going over the curve of the earth and only the top can be seen (no amount of zoom will restore it, you can find plenty of photos and video which clearly demonstrate this effect.

On a flat earth as a ship sails away you should be able to see all of it at all times:



But don't worry, there is a shape of earth which could actually explain why a ship disappears hull first...



Ta-daa!

I know there is some muttering about "waves", I've dealt with that in another thread.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Macarios

Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #122 on: April 04, 2018, 01:58:02 PM »
I know there is some muttering about "waves", I've dealt with that in another thread.

There are no waves in "Kansas - as flat as a pancake".
The flatness of Kansas was measured from sea level, not from some imaginary flat plane.
Horizon there, as seen while standing on the ground, is still not at 30 miles, but at 3.

It is not so hard to go there, see horizon at 4.5 km, and no waves.

Even beter place to see the distance to horizon will be Salar de Uyuni in Bolivia.

Section XIII of Rowbotham's book is full of descriptions with ignored refraction, and some of them were "slightly adjusted".

There is the .PDF file online, easy to find if you care to know. (Unless one worships the book, instead of reading it.)

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #123 on: April 04, 2018, 10:19:08 PM »
I think it’s worth pointing out, that even if the observed curvature at Lake Pontchartrain does not match the prediction of current Geodetic measurements, it would still dis prove a FE, where we would not predict any curvature.
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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #124 on: April 08, 2018, 02:03:20 AM »
I think it’s worth pointing out, that even if the observed curvature at Lake Pontchartrain does not match the prediction of current Geodetic measurements, it would still dis prove a FE, where we would not predict any curvature.
Technically it does not disprove according to proper Zetetic. You are making the same mistake Mr. Samuel Rowbotham makes. He said I see perspective I cannot explain. But then he started using rationalization - speculation and conjecture to arrive at the conclusion. For Mr. Samuel would have been better to say: Maybe earth is round, maybe not, maybe other phenomena that I don't understand, but maybe found out about in the next 100 years of science. I leave the subject as unknown. Mr. Samual wrote his book roundabouts 1860. Better have left the subject as unknown.
As the saying goes "The internet belongs to the lunatics in their walled gardens" - Xiang Yu

I see a Flat Earth. And I can't imagine anything else.

I got work to do. 0.00018% of Christians believe in a Flat Earth. Pls help

Macarios

Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #125 on: April 08, 2018, 06:33:05 AM »
I think it’s worth pointing out, that even if the observed curvature at Lake Pontchartrain does not match the prediction of current Geodetic measurements, it would still dis prove a FE, where we would not predict any curvature.
Technically it does not disprove according to proper Zetetic. You are making the same mistake Mr. Samuel Rowbotham makes. He said I see perspective I cannot explain. But then he started using rationalization - speculation and conjecture to arrive at the conclusion. For Mr. Samuel would have been better to say: Maybe earth is round, maybe not, maybe other phenomena that I don't understand, but maybe found out about in the next 100 years of science. I leave the subject as unknown. Mr. Samual wrote his book roundabouts 1860. Better have left the subject as unknown.

Rowbotham was giving lectures in small towns and villages for money.
He had to run from his lectures when people asked about sinking ships hull first behind horizon.
He developed his version of "perspective" to confuse and discredit those who would ask "inconvenient" questions again.
He developed the rhetoric through his practice, it worked better each time, so he decided it will work well for his book too.

And on some people obviously it did.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #126 on: June 08, 2018, 03:52:52 PM »

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #127 on: June 08, 2018, 04:57:06 PM »
I don't have an explanation for this.

Why would Paul's and Soundly's images show differently?

Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #128 on: June 08, 2018, 05:47:07 PM »
This is great, more pictures are always better.

We have one picture that shows a curve, and one that shows flat. How can we resolve this? More people can go there and take pictures!

For example, here's some pictures someone else took that show a curve:
https://imgur.com/a/Bpb64
This person does not appear to be a round or flat earther, just a photographer.

The imgur link is one I made referring to an image I found on google. For images where I say I adjusted contrast and brightness, I did the manipulations myself using Gimp - you're welcome to take the original image and manipulate it yourself and see if you believe it shows a curve or not, and if it does what that means.

You're also free to go there and take your own pictures. Be sure to bring a powerful telephoto lens or telescope.

Finally, compare the reactions here to your most recent video to the original reaction from Baby Thork, where the very existence of the power lines was not only questioned, but outright denied. One of these reactions is consistent with being curious about how the world actually is, and one of these reactions is consistent with not wanting anything to challenge your world view.

I look forward to seeing everybody else's pictures from here!

Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #129 on: June 08, 2018, 07:26:08 PM »
I don't have an explanation for this.

Why would Paul's and Soundly's images show differently?
Because of the technique used in one, that was potentially not used in the other. If you dig back earlier in the thread it's described some, but it's a sort of depth of field effect (I don't honestly remember exactly what it was offhand right now) that is essentially a manipulation of perspective. It will enhance the appearance of a curve, but it's been shown it will not create a curve where there isn't one.

Again though, as douglips mentions the best thing possible is to attempt to observe it yourself. When presented with evidence that appears to support both sides, you either bias yourself and pick one, or there's little left to do but try and find more evidence, or create the evidence yourself and see for yourself what's going on.

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #130 on: June 09, 2018, 09:03:40 AM »
it's a sort of depth of field effect (I don't honestly remember exactly what it was offhand right now) that is essentially a manipulation of perspective. It will enhance the appearance of a curve, but it's been shown it will not create a curve where there isn't one.
Hold on, that doesn't make any sense. Depth of field is just a way of expressing the length between the closest and farthest object that's in focus. Both images are sharp throughout, so their DoF is likely comparable. And, even if it wasn't, it'd just result in one image being blurry - not magically curved or un-curved.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #131 on: June 09, 2018, 03:03:22 PM »
it's a sort of depth of field effect (I don't honestly remember exactly what it was offhand right now) that is essentially a manipulation of perspective. It will enhance the appearance of a curve, but it's been shown it will not create a curve where there isn't one.
Hold on, that doesn't make any sense. Depth of field is just a way of expressing the length between the closest and farthest object that's in focus. Both images are sharp throughout, so their DoF is likely comparable. And, even if it wasn't, it'd just result in one image being blurry - not magically curved or un-curved.
Hence why I admitted I don't remember what it was called, and didn't have the time to look up what the effect was. Looking back now, it's a product of 'compressed perspective' is what's stated.

I would also note on the side, the video 'disproving' the first that just came up is also not the first to be presented in this thread with that claim.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #132 on: June 13, 2018, 06:23:45 AM »
Soundly, the author of the Lake Pontcharitrain images, has been debunked here as well, using his own video of another "curving" scene. He is apparently just cherry picking images:

« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 06:28:35 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #133 on: June 13, 2018, 07:22:36 AM »
Looking back now, it's a product of 'compressed perspective' is what's stated.
Perspective compression?! That would be even more evident - the pylons in one photo would appear to be much closer together as a result of using a telephoto lens.
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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #134 on: June 13, 2018, 08:44:55 AM »
Soundly, the author of the Lake Pontcharitrain images, has been debunked here as well, using his own video of another "curving" scene. He is apparently just cherry picking images:

VID

I'm going to quote one of the comments from that video;

"Not sure if your trying to be a retard or actually are one but Soundlys video is clearly stating that the time laps was to show people how the temperature of the water and atmosphere alter refraction .

Everyone knows (well i thought everyone did)that when the temperature of the water and atmosphere above it change so does the refraction effect , the lights are not physically moving the time is passing at an increase speed aka TIME LAPS VIDEO the lights move up or down in the refraction zone due to the difference in water temp and atmosphere temp .

So I have no idea why you uploaded a video showing the effects of refraction and claiming that Soundly was showing earth curve? You really really need to get a brain or at least listen to the first 30 seconds of the original video where Soundly states what he is doing "
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #135 on: June 13, 2018, 09:10:38 AM »
Soundly, the author of the Lake Pontcharitrain images, has been debunked here as well, using his own video of another "curving" scene. He is apparently just cherry picking images:

VID

I'm going to quote one of the comments from that video;

"Not sure if your trying to be a retard or actually are one but Soundlys video is clearly stating that the time laps was to show people how the temperature of the water and atmosphere alter refraction .

Everyone knows (well i thought everyone did)that when the temperature of the water and atmosphere above it change so does the refraction effect , the lights are not physically moving the time is passing at an increase speed aka TIME LAPS VIDEO the lights move up or down in the refraction zone due to the difference in water temp and atmosphere temp .

So I have no idea why you uploaded a video showing the effects of refraction and claiming that Soundly was showing earth curve? You really really need to get a brain or at least listen to the first 30 seconds of the original video where Soundly states what he is doing "

I believe that argument is "Your video is dumb because it's just showing refraction"? :-\

Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #136 on: June 13, 2018, 09:38:20 AM »
I feel like flat earthers don't understand perspective and refraction.

Perspective works using light as travelling in straight lines from a light source or from an object which the light has bounced off. It is very simple to understand, simulate, calculate and does explain almost all our observations on a spherical earth, apart from when refraction is involved and light bends over long distances mostly just over the surface of earth, and very slightly when viewing up through the atmosphere.

Refraction bends light as it travels through mediums of different density, which is easily demonstrated.

The atmosphere can cause refraction when there is a high gradient density difference, this shows easily in videos and pictures as moving blur, and will result in either light bending upwards (when the density is lower close to the surface), and bending downwards (when the density is higher close to the surface).
The amount of bending is minuscule, and it is only noticeable over long distances, primarily over water watching from a beach or harbor.

The result of light bending upwards, will result in a vertically compressed visual of the objects near to the horizon, or in more extreme cases a vertical flip (mirroring effect) which can be compressed, normal or even stretched in even more extreme cases. The viewing distance to the horizon is also shortened due to light bending upwards.
Normally hot weather will result in this behavior above water.

The result of light bending downwards, which happens less frequently, will result in a vertically stretched visual of the horizon, and will result in a further viewing distance than normal as light will bend with the spherical earth.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2018, 09:42:38 AM by SphericalEarther »

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #137 on: September 12, 2018, 06:20:10 PM »
Videos from a flat earther posted today of the causeway:







Appears to me that Soundly's observations are confirmed.  Visible curvature and the end of the causeway disappears behind the horizon while the top of the buildings of New Orleans are still visible.

Compliments to Jose Gonzalez for actually doing some research! 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Soundly Proving the Curvature of the Earth at Lake Pontchartrain
« Reply #138 on: September 12, 2018, 07:24:51 PM »
Take a look at this comment:

Quote
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEvMTydESMY&t=14s

Red Pill Philosophy
3 hours ago

What I find interesting is that the apparent curvature from the causeway only seems to start bending at the point where the water's horizon meets the causeway.

Pause at 0:14 - follow the start of the causeway (excluding that small portion at the start that juts out more to the side than the vast majority of the causeway), and notice how STRAIGHT the bridge looks---it has that common "perspective" converging straight lines effects.

Now, look at the "horizon line" of the water.  From the right side of the screen to where it meets underneath the causeway, that, too, is a fairly straight line.

Now, from where the horizon of water meets underneath the causeway, everything from the causeway TOWARDS the cameraman has a standard straight perspective converging lines appearance.

And again, from where the horizon of water meets underneath the causeway, every portion of the causeway further AWAY from the cameraman now has a more obvious and pronounced "curvature."

A few possible explanations:

a) if the earth is a globe, the further away the causeway is, the more pronounced and obvious the curvature is (because the causeway is more "compressed" (visually). Thus, at a greater distance, the curvature is easier to notice, which is what Jose's video shows.

b) if the earth is a globe, then the "horizon line" of the water COULD be the actual bulge "peak" of the curvature, though from what I understand that "bulge peak" is relative to the view height, so it is not necessarily the "bulge peak" at the dead center of the entire lake Pontchartrain itself.

If the horizon line of water in Jose's video is, indeed, the bulge peak, then it makes sense that any portion of the bridge BEYOND that bulge peak will begin to bend/curve DOWNWARD, which is kinda what Jose's video shows (ignoring the massive amounts of distortion/refraction).

However, save for point A) above, this doesn't really explain why the portion of the causeway CLOSEST to the cameraman yet BEFORE the  horizon line of water is NOT curved, and instead only shows the converging straight perspective lines.

c) the apparent curvature is caused by the massive amounts of distortion/refection seen near the end of the visible causeway in the video. Maybe between the natural effects of perspective + the extreme distortion, you can get an apparent visual curvature that's not actually there.

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for the shots Jose.

We saw from Soundly's own timelapses that the refraction can seem to curve up and down.

Furthermore, when another observer went to test one of his scenes, it was not curved.
« Last Edit: September 12, 2018, 07:36:01 PM by Tom Bishop »