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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2017, 04:50:01 AM »
In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.

I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.

I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened.  Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me.  It failed cause I'm not an idiot.


Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser?  Really?
Where did I say I worked in the school? The first time I saw this happen, I was a student. I didn't realize how organized the teacher's union was until after I saw them pull the same stunt a second time, but I also suspect them for poisoning me at the very end of the 8th grade (during finals week so I'd flunk) and "modifying" my school records in my senior year in high school so that...again...I'd flunk (which I didn't.) Very organized.

Wow. I guess this says it all as far as the legitimacy of your anecdotal evidence is concerned.

Wow.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2017, 07:33:39 AM »
In my personal experience, I have seen several male teachers removed from their careers using this tactic. There is never a conviction--the woman merely makes the accusation, and the damage is done. The teacher's union kicks the teacher out without due process and that is the end of it. As for my involvement, I have filed written statements in at least two of these cases, and in one, my friends and I resorted to creating an underground newspaper to expose the teacher's union for what it was doing.

I've also seen this done with church pastors. It's actually a common occurrence. The tactic is to exploit church insurance policies, which are actually quite expensive because of the prevalence of these accusations. Again, no actual legal due process happens; the accusation is made, the insurance company reacts and removes the pastor, and the woman vanishes back into the woodwork. I've never had it happen to me, but I get around in the liturgical circles and have seen this happen several times to other men in my community.

I suppose you'd like names and dates, but in light of the current political climate, don't you think it more poetic if I just made the accusation and left it for people to either believe or ignore based on whether they want their side to win the argument?
Then you work at a shitty school.
In MY personal experience,this has never happened.  Hell, I had a student use the old "Do guys think about sex every 10 seconds" bit on me.  It failed cause I'm not an idiot.


Also, are you seriously comparing a bunch of teenagers to grown, mature women and using that to paint every god damn accuser?  Really?
Where did I say I worked in the school? The first time I saw this happen, I was a student. I didn't realize how organized the teacher's union was until after I saw them pull the same stunt a second time, but I also suspect them for poisoning me at the very end of the 8th grade (during finals week so I'd flunk) and "modifying" my school records in my senior year in high school so that...again...I'd flunk (which I didn't.) Very organized.


So your entire anecdotal evidence is based from a Student standpoint?  Wow... Yeah, you have no idea what went on then.  Also, making kids flunk is bad since it lowers the school's overall passing numbers and, thanks to NCLB, will cause problems for both teachers and administeators.  So while possible, the motive has to be greater than "I hate that guy".  Especially since it a teacher hates you, usually they want you out of their lives quickly.


But please, do explain how they 'poisoned' you (or why make you flunk) and what modifications they made and how you know.


Also country and state (if america) would be helpful.

Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #22 on: December 25, 2017, 06:29:53 AM »
Let's just say that I had a family member who worked at the same school I attended, and I'm smart enough not to name them or explain all the connections that make sense of my "wacko"-sounding explanations.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #23 on: December 25, 2017, 07:14:27 AM »
Let's just say that I had a family member who worked at the same school I attended, and I'm smart enough not to name them or explain all the connections that make sense of my "wacko"-sounding explanations.

Sure, let's just say that, why not?
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #24 on: February 11, 2018, 02:36:01 PM »
Ecch, yes he's a hypocrite, but when it comes to this issue he's right (except when he's guilty of it himself of course).

This #metoo movement is destroying lives, sometimes unfairly (Did Aziz Ansari really deserve to have his career ruined over what was alleged of him? Louis CK?), and usually with nothing but the word of the accuser(s) as support of the allegations.

The climate right now, being pushed by the Media, is poisonous. Anybody could pay any woman to accuse any of their political enemies of sexual misconduct, and unless you treat the person being accused as a monster, you are looked on as part of the problem. The pushback is immediate. Careers are lost, relationships ruined. If five months down the road the accuser admits she's lying, or was exaggerating, it doesn't even matter. The damage is already done.

All it takes is one person to accuse someone of sexual misconduct and that's it, their life is over. Over nothing more than an accusation. That's poisonous and dangerous and pretty much the definition of a witch hunt.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #25 on: February 11, 2018, 04:25:33 PM »
But that's been that way for a long time.  It's just getting media attention.

And it's always polarized.
You either get 0 attention and no one gives a shit about the accusation or you get a lot and everyone cares.

And it's hard to know who is or isn't lying because of the nature of the crime.  Sometimes you have evidence, most of the time you don't.  Most of the time you don't bother reporting it because you don't think anyone will believe you or care since in most cases it's your word against theirs.

Either way, you're fucked.

BUT...
I'd like to point out that Trump was accused by 14 women and he still got elected so it's not an instant career killer.

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Offline honk

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #26 on: February 11, 2018, 04:51:59 PM »
Aziz Ansari's career hasn't been destroyed. He's going to bounce back from this just fine. Most of the people impacted by this will be fine. There's no way to say this without sounding like a conspiratard, but Hollywood just offered up Weinstein as a sacrifice. They don't care about any of these allegations.

And yeah, Louis CK absolutely deserved to have his career destroyed for what he did. I'm a little concerned that you'd mention him as an example of somebody being disproportionately punished. Of course, he'll probably have a triumphant comeback tour in a few years.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #27 on: February 11, 2018, 06:58:46 PM »
Yeah Aziz Ansari was actually the first case in the movement where there was significant and well-reasoned push back against the allegations. I expect Samantha Bee to be totally incapable of nuance on the topic but most media outlets put the brakes on crucifying him. I’m not convinced that Louis CK deserves the same treatment as Kevin Spacey or Harvey Weinstein though.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #28 on: February 12, 2018, 09:36:18 AM »
Louis CK admitted he was a creep from memory?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #29 on: February 12, 2018, 01:36:09 PM »
Louis CK admitted he was a creep from memory?

Yeah and no one alleged he assaulted them, just that he exposed himself inappropriately and made unwelcome advances. Still wrong, but definitely different than Spacey, Weinstein, et al. So perhaps he shouldn’t have to give up his life?
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #30 on: February 12, 2018, 01:40:25 PM »
Or, Weinstein et al should be facing far greater sanctions than the likes of LCK

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #31 on: February 12, 2018, 02:03:30 PM »
Or, Weinstein et al should be facing far greater sanctions than the likes of LCK

Perhaps that too.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #32 on: February 13, 2018, 09:30:16 PM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #33 on: February 13, 2018, 10:26:48 PM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
Yes but how do you figure if it's accurate or not?
Even if every woman is telling the truth, how do you prove it if there are no witnesses?
And even if you go through court, that takes years.  So basically the ONLY solution is to not report on it.  And I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #34 on: February 13, 2018, 11:23:19 PM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

But it's the fact that these people are often being judged based on nothing more than an accusation that bugs me about all of this. That's what makes this a witch hunt. I find it extremely unsettling. We should be better than this.
Yes but how do you figure if it's accurate or not?
Even if every woman is telling the truth, how do you prove it if there are no witnesses?
And even if you go through court, that takes years.  So basically the ONLY solution is to not report on it.  And I'm not sure that's such a good idea.

It's not up to the media to judge these people. That they have taken it upon themselves to do so anyway is the problem. They are not merely reporting that women are making these accusations, they are ceaselessly editorializing, and they are demonizing anyone who calls them out for it. Unless you think (today's accused) is a monster, you are yourself a monster, proof of any actual wrongdoing be damned. With as much influence as the media has, this is irresponsible, and scary.
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Offline honk

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #35 on: February 14, 2018, 12:07:55 AM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?

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We should be better than this.

The irony.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #36 on: February 14, 2018, 12:15:10 AM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?

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We should be better than this.

The irony.

From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.
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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #37 on: February 14, 2018, 12:18:44 AM »
no one has a constitutional right to be liked
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Offline honk

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #38 on: February 14, 2018, 03:13:41 AM »
Louis CK is a creep, no doubt. A lot of men are creeps. A lot. Just being a creep is not criminal, and it shouldn't be enough to lose your career over.

Exposing yourself to and jerking off in front of unconsenting women is not normal, not commonplace, and absolutely is criminal. C.K. has done this several times to multiple different women over the course of many years. He's not just a creep, he's a sex pest. Are you really, really using this guy as your example of someone who deserves lenience?

Quote
We should be better than this.

The irony.

From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.

The hotel room incident involved Dana Min Goodman and Julia Wolov, a professional comedy duo who had met C.K. after they had performed at a comedy festival. They weren't groupies, and they weren't there to have sex with him.

As to the rest of it, well, all I can say is that I very strongly disagree, and I imagine that most people would too.
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Offline Ghost Spaghetti

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Re: Sexual Scandals
« Reply #39 on: February 14, 2018, 10:42:27 AM »
In many of these cases, though, it isn't just one woman's word against a poor defenceless man, there are often multiple accusations and circumstantial evidence. Look at the investigation that was held into that fake accusation that was made against Roy Moore in order to discredit the rest of his accusers - a journalist looked into the woman's story and realised it didn't add up, so they didn't report on it as an accusation.

It doesn't help these men that their defence is often so transparently weak. "Err, ahh, I certainly don't remember doing that..."

Do they deserve to lose their careers - well that really depends on their employers, doesn't it?

Quote
From what I've been able to find he never forced himself on anyone, he just made some women feel uncomfortable. I'm sorry but it's a far cry from rape, and at least some of his accusers should have expected it, seeing as they were accompanying him to his hotel room. It's just silly to say he really did anything wrong.

Jesus Christ... do we really need to go into why somebody - especially someone who has the dominant position in a power imbalance - making sexual advances towards someone without their consent is wrong? And 'they should have expected it'? Even if that were the case when it clearly isn't, how does that mitigate what he did?