Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« on: September 26, 2017, 02:06:08 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon. So i've done a very simple sketchup drawing highlighting what should be seen if we were on a flat earth but which we don't actually see in reality. FET puts the sun at 32 miles in diameter and the earth at 25 000 miles in diameter. So comparatively we have a very very small sun which should be getting smaller and smaller as its moving along its path horizontal to the earth.

This is a good video of a sunset in Hawaii which clearly shows that the sun remains the same size as its setting. 



Can any FE'ers provide an explanation for this?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2017, 02:14:18 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon.

What research have you done to determine our views on this?

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2017, 02:33:48 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon.

What research have you done to determine our views on this?

I've searched the site and found no explanation why the law of perspective doesn't apply to the sun on a flat earth!


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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2017, 02:36:19 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon.

What research have you done to determine our views on this?

He most likely did what we all do, look out the window and see the sun does not get smaller.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2017, 03:00:38 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon.

What research have you done to determine our views on this?

I've searched the site and found no explanation why the law of perspective doesn't apply to the sun on a flat earth!

That's funny. Seeing that I have have participated in numerous discussions about this subject across this forum and the other one over the last 9 years and have written a wiki article on the subject, that Flat Earth authors have written about the subject for the last 150 years, and a chapter is dedicated to it in Earth Not a Globe, I think you have not looked hard enough.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 03:02:24 PM by Tom Bishop »

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #5 on: September 26, 2017, 03:01:57 PM »

That's funny. Seeing that I have talked about this subject across this forum and the other one for the last 9 years and have written a wiki article on the subject, I think you have not looked hard enough.
but still can't answer the simplest questions on perspective... psst Tom! This way! There are threads eagerly waiting for your input on the subject  ;D

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #6 on: September 26, 2017, 03:22:31 PM »
This question keeps coming up throughout the forum but i haven't seen/read any reasonable explanation for the sun staying the same size as it moves further away towards the horizon.

What research have you done to determine our views on this?

I've searched the site and found no explanation why the law of perspective doesn't apply to the sun on a flat earth!

That's funny. Seeing that I have have participated in numerous discussions about this subject across this forum and the other one over the last 9 years and have written a wiki article on the subject, that Flat Earth authors have written about the subject for the last 150 years, and a chapter is dedicated to it in Earth Not a Globe, I think you have not looked hard enough.

Or maybe i have Tom. Your 'Magnification at Sunset' explanation makes ZERO sense when measured against real world testing. Was hoping for a different explanation as to why we don't see any change in the suns size as the law of perspective would dictate but obviously there is none. So here is the hard evidence:



**Edit** I should mention that this video was created by a FE'er. He's managed to disprove the flat earth model which should show the sun getting considerably smaller due to perspective as it moves along its path.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:42:51 PM by Serious_Lee »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #7 on: September 26, 2017, 04:30:34 PM »
RULE #1 of Flat Earth Perspective:

   Perspective can do anything that Tom wants it to do - without further explanation or clarification being needed.

Honestly, Tom is unable (or more likely, unwilling) to answer the two simplest possible questions:

* At sunset, where is the sun physically located?
* What path do the photons take to get from the Sun into our Eyes at sunset?

If he can't answer even those two simple things - and not a single one of the other FE'ers will step up to the plate to answer them...then why would you assume that they'd be anything other than utterly clueless about the size of the sun at sunset?

As for the Wiki...it's a chaotic mess in this regard.

The summary of https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun says that "The perspective lines nearly merge, causing the receding body to appear to collapse in on itself."...Ah!  So the sun should get smaller at the horizon!   Urh...but it doesn't.

Then right below that is a Rowbotham quote that basically claims that it's refraction that causes this effect (I've debunked that one - and Tom says he doesn't believe it).

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset it again quotes Rowbotham - only this time he's claiming that the sun's image is magnified by water droplets in the air (in the manner that street lamps appear to get larger into the distance on a foggy day).   I debunked this one too...plus see photos of sunset over death valley or the sahara desert - where the humidity is nearly zero and there ARE no water droplets.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Accelerator it says that the suns rays are bent according to some funky equation containing the "Bishop Constant".  Tom says this one isn't true...which is a wise decision because it's stupidly easy to debunk.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Optics is quotes Rowbotham AGAIN, only now he's saying that "the angular limits of the human eye" are involved in the whole sorry mess.  Evidently, Mr Rowbotham had never taken a photograph to see whether the human eye truly was the issue here.

Truly - reading the Wiki about this is a complete waste of time.

The FE'ers are totally all over the map about sunsets - and this should come as no surprise.   Short of magic, no set of optical effects can explain the position *AND* the roundness *AND* the size of the setting sun.   Any prediction based on any of their ideas breaks one of those three self-evident properties.   And that's before we ask how the setting sun can illuminate the undersides of clouds and airplanes...even AFTER it's gone away (I want to say "gone below the horizon" - but FET can't make THAT happen either...so for chrissakes don't even try to ask what happens when the sun sets into a notch in the horizon caused by a deep valley!

Look - FET is busted.

So long as nobody has the guts to tell us the path of the photons...their entire tissue of nonsensical junk theories has collapsed around them.  Tom has CLEARLY decided to "chicken out" of this one!




« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 04:36:43 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #8 on: September 26, 2017, 04:54:57 PM »
RULE #1 of Flat Earth Perspective:

   Perspective can do anything that Tom wants it to do - without further explanation or clarification being needed.

Honestly, Tom is unable (or more likely, unwilling) to answer the two simplest possible questions:

* At sunset, where is the sun physically located?
* What path do the photons take to get from the Sun into our Eyes at sunset?

If he can't answer even those two simple things - and not a single one of the other FE'ers will step up to the plate to answer them...then why would you assume that they'd be anything other than utterly clueless about the size of the sun at sunset?

As for the Wiki...it's a chaotic mess in this regard.

The summary of https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun says that "The perspective lines nearly merge, causing the receding body to appear to collapse in on itself."...Ah!  So the sun should get smaller at the horizon!   Urh...but it doesn't.

Then right below that is a Rowbotham quote that basically claims that it's refraction that causes this effect (I've debunked that one - and Tom says he doesn't believe it).

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset it again quotes Rowbotham - only this time he's claiming that the sun's image is magnified by water droplets in the air (in the manner that street lamps appear to get larger into the distance on a foggy day).   I debunked this one too...plus see photos of sunset over death valley or the sahara desert - where the humidity is nearly zero and there ARE no water droplets.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Accelerator it says that the suns rays are bent according to some funky equation containing the "Bishop Constant".  Tom says this one isn't true...which is a wise decision because it's stupidly easy to debunk.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Optics is quotes Rowbotham AGAIN, only now he's saying that "the angular limits of the human eye" are involved in the whole sorry mess.  Evidently, Mr Rowbotham had never taken a photograph to see whether the human eye truly was the issue here.

Truly - reading the Wiki about this is a complete waste of time.

The FE'ers are totally all over the map about sunsets - and this should come as no surprise.   Short of magic, no set of optical effects can explain the position *AND* the roundness *AND* the size of the setting sun.   Any prediction based on any of their ideas breaks one of those three self-evident properties.   And that's before we ask how the setting sun can illuminate the undersides of clouds and airplanes...even AFTER it's gone away (I want to say "gone below the horizon" - but FET can't make THAT happen either...so for chrissakes don't even try to ask what happens when the sun sets into a notch in the horizon caused by a deep valley!

Look - FET is busted.

So long as nobody has the guts to tell us the path of the photons...their entire tissue of nonsensical junk theories has collapsed around them.  Tom has CLEARLY decided to "chicken out" of this one!

Please stay on topic. Most of your post is talking about sun set and not sun size. There is another thread on that topic for you to post your rants to.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #9 on: September 26, 2017, 05:12:18 PM »
RULE #1 of Flat Earth Perspective:

   Perspective can do anything that Tom wants it to do - without further explanation or clarification being needed.

Honestly, Tom is unable (or more likely, unwilling) to answer the two simplest possible questions:

* At sunset, where is the sun physically located?
* What path do the photons take to get from the Sun into our Eyes at sunset?

If he can't answer even those two simple things - and not a single one of the other FE'ers will step up to the plate to answer them...then why would you assume that they'd be anything other than utterly clueless about the size of the sun at sunset?

As for the Wiki...it's a chaotic mess in this regard.

The summary of https://wiki.tfes.org/The_Setting_of_the_Sun says that "The perspective lines nearly merge, causing the receding body to appear to collapse in on itself."...Ah!  So the sun should get smaller at the horizon!   Urh...but it doesn't.

Then right below that is a Rowbotham quote that basically claims that it's refraction that causes this effect (I've debunked that one - and Tom says he doesn't believe it).

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Magnification_of_the_Sun_at_Sunset it again quotes Rowbotham - only this time he's claiming that the sun's image is magnified by water droplets in the air (in the manner that street lamps appear to get larger into the distance on a foggy day).   I debunked this one too...plus see photos of sunset over death valley or the sahara desert - where the humidity is nearly zero and there ARE no water droplets.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Electromagnetic_Accelerator it says that the suns rays are bent according to some funky equation containing the "Bishop Constant".  Tom says this one isn't true...which is a wise decision because it's stupidly easy to debunk.

Then, in https://wiki.tfes.org/Optics is quotes Rowbotham AGAIN, only now he's saying that "the angular limits of the human eye" are involved in the whole sorry mess.  Evidently, Mr Rowbotham had never taken a photograph to see whether the human eye truly was the issue here.

Truly - reading the Wiki about this is a complete waste of time.

The FE'ers are totally all over the map about sunsets - and this should come as no surprise.   Short of magic, no set of optical effects can explain the position *AND* the roundness *AND* the size of the setting sun.   Any prediction based on any of their ideas breaks one of those three self-evident properties.   And that's before we ask how the setting sun can illuminate the undersides of clouds and airplanes...even AFTER it's gone away (I want to say "gone below the horizon" - but FET can't make THAT happen either...so for chrissakes don't even try to ask what happens when the sun sets into a notch in the horizon caused by a deep valley!

Look - FET is busted.

So long as nobody has the guts to tell us the path of the photons...their entire tissue of nonsensical junk theories has collapsed around them.  Tom has CLEARLY decided to "chicken out" of this one!

Please stay on topic. Most of your post is talking about sun set and not sun size. There is another thread on that topic for you to post your rants to.

They are NOT unrelated.   Perspective changes the apparent SIZE of things as well as their apparent position.  The fact that you don't seem to understand this actually underpins one of the major ways we know that your theory is broken.

If perspective is somehow able to bring something from 3,000 miles up down to zero - then it must also bring something 3,015 and something 2,985 miles to very nearly zero - which would result in the sun being far, far smaller than it seems at noon.

He who lives by perspective also dies by perspective.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #10 on: September 26, 2017, 05:37:39 PM »
They are NOT unrelated.   Perspective changes the apparent SIZE of things as well as their apparent position.  The fact that you don't seem to understand this actually underpins one of the major ways we know that your theory is broken.

If perspective is somehow able to bring something from 3,000 miles up down to zero - then it must also bring something 3,015 and something 2,985 miles to very nearly zero - which would result in the sun being far, far smaller than it seems at noon.

He who lives by perspective also dies by perspective.

They are not unrelated, but that is not the reason this thread was posted. A specific question was asked and you should try to stay on topic. It is disrespectful to go off on tangents and ignore the question asked.
« Last Edit: September 26, 2017, 08:20:30 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #11 on: September 26, 2017, 05:42:05 PM »
Or maybe i have Tom. Your 'Magnification at Sunset' explanation makes ZERO sense when measured against real world testing. Was hoping for a different explanation as to why we don't see any change in the suns size as the law of perspective would dictate but obviously there is none.

Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #12 on: September 26, 2017, 07:04:05 PM »
Or maybe i have Tom. Your 'Magnification at Sunset' explanation makes ZERO sense when measured against real world testing. Was hoping for a different explanation as to why we don't see any change in the suns size as the law of perspective would dictate but obviously there is none.

Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?
I mean, you've told us practically half the wiki is actually wrong by this point. Becomes difficult to keep track of what's up to date and what isn't you know.

The problem with it though is that it does a piss poor job of explaining how it happens in exactly the same way, every single night, across every location on Earth. That's what's wrong with it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #13 on: September 26, 2017, 08:08:02 PM »
I mean, you've told us practically half the wiki is actually wrong by this point. Becomes difficult to keep track of what's up to date and what isn't you know.

Where have I said that?

Quote
The problem with it though is that it does a piss poor job of explaining how it happens in exactly the same way, every single night, across every location on Earth. That's what's wrong with it.

Why? Does the atmosphere not exist at other parts on earth?

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #14 on: September 26, 2017, 09:18:30 PM »
I mean, you've told us practically half the wiki is actually wrong by this point. Becomes difficult to keep track of what's up to date and what isn't you know.

Where have I said that?

Quote
The problem with it though is that it does a piss poor job of explaining how it happens in exactly the same way, every single night, across every location on Earth. That's what's wrong with it.

Why? Does the atmosphere not exist at other parts on earth?
Too tired of your shit to go quote mining right now. All of EA for starters though. Neither map is actually a map. Sleepy or I would have more.

It's that the atmosphere varies widely across the globe, and there's nothing suggesting something above us that is distorting the view of the sun in such a way. No measurements about it have ever been recorded, and EnaG gives something like 3 different reasons it happens. You've got guesses at best. Everything is based on "I don't see what I would call curvature so the Earth must be flat" and deny anything that doesn't fit that, as well as have to come up with an incredibly amount of excuses to explain why all of these tests fit a globe model perfectly. But that's off-topic.

The fact is you have no measurements (that I've ever seen) for anything having such an effect upon the sun to help it keep it's size. None. Just the vague claim that boils down to "Well the Earth is flat so there *has* to be something."

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2017, 09:43:59 PM »
Or maybe i have Tom. Your 'Magnification at Sunset' explanation makes ZERO sense when measured against real world testing. Was hoping for a different explanation as to why we don't see any change in the suns size as the law of perspective would dictate but obviously there is none.

Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?

Well, in my post, above, where I explained this (which you are evidently trying to brush off as "off-topic") I list half a dozen places in the Wiki where clearly contradictory explanations are given.

If you think there is nothing wrong with that then it's no surprise that people are confused when they read it and request some clarification.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #16 on: September 27, 2017, 12:19:41 AM »
I mean, you've told us practically half the wiki is actually wrong by this point. Becomes difficult to keep track of what's up to date and what isn't you know.

Where have I said that?

Quote
The problem with it though is that it does a piss poor job of explaining how it happens in exactly the same way, every single night, across every location on Earth. That's what's wrong with it.

Why? Does the atmosphere not exist at other parts on earth?

Tom, I pointed out that the very first 100 proofs was demonstrably wrong and you quipped that it was written in the 1800's. Then here recently, I see you make reference to it again as though it was factual. The Wiki is so short on details it is essentially worthless for someone who questions why.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #17 on: September 27, 2017, 09:06:30 AM »
Or maybe i have Tom. Your 'Magnification at Sunset' explanation makes ZERO sense when measured against real world testing. Was hoping for a different explanation as to why we don't see any change in the suns size as the law of perspective would dictate but obviously there is none.

Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?


These are some statements from your wiki. There are a few things that I want to point out here that is contradictory to what i've posted.

1. From Wiki - 'The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.'

Yes, I agree that LIGHT passing through a denser medium can distort to some degree the size of the object. Like a car's headlights shining through fog will create a haze effect around the headlight itself. However, in the video I posted with the sun viewed through a welders glass, the LIGHT of the sun is filtered out which leaves us with only the sun itself moving towards the horizon. The video clearly shows that the sun itself does not change in size as would be expected on a flat earth.


2. From Wiki - "IT is well known that when a light of any kind shines through a dense medium it appears larger, or magnified, at a given distance than when it is seen through a lighter medium. This is more remarkable when the medium holds aqueous particles or vapour in solution, as in a damp or foggy atmosphere. Anyone may be satisfied of this by standing within a few yards of an ordinary street lamp, and noticing the size of the flame; on going away to many times the distance, the light upon the atmosphere will appear considerably larger. This phenomenon may be noticed, to a greater or less degree, at all times; but when the air is moist and vapoury it is more intense. It is evident that at sunrise, and at sunset, the sun's light must shine through a greater length of atmospheric air than at mid-day; besides which, the air near the earth is both more dense, and holds more watery particles in solution, than the higher strata through which the sun shines at noonday; and hence the light must be dilated or magnified, as well as modified in colour."
—"Earth Not a Globe", Samuel Birley Rowbotham


Here Rowbotham confirms that LIGHT itself causes the object to appear larger. Not that the object itself increases in size. So if it's only the LIGHT of the sun which makes it appear larger than what it is, then why does the video show the sun not shrinking with perspective as its moving towards the horizon?

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #18 on: September 27, 2017, 12:12:52 PM »
1. From Wiki - 'The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.'

The other problem with this stupid statement is that it's not just the Sun that "sets" - the moon, the planets, stars, comets...all of those things disappear over the horizon.

So it can't be anything to do with the "intense rays of light" because even the dimmest stars set over the horizon.

Whoever wrote that sentence obviously wasn't thinking very clearly!

Quote

2. From Wiki - "IT is well known that when a light of any kind shines through a dense medium it appears larger, or magnified, at a given distance than when it is seen through a lighter medium. This is more remarkable when the medium holds aqueous particles or vapour in solution, as in a damp or foggy atmosphere. Anyone may be satisfied of this by standing within a few yards of an ordinary street lamp, and noticing the size of the flame; on going away to many times the distance, the light upon the atmosphere will appear considerably larger. This phenomenon may be noticed, to a greater or less degree, at all times; but when the air is moist and vapoury it is more intense. It is evident that at sunrise, and at sunset, the sun's light must shine through a greater length of atmospheric air than at mid-day; besides which, the air near the earth is both more dense, and holds more watery particles in solution, than the higher strata through which the sun shines at noonday; and hence the light must be dilated or magnified, as well as modified in colour."
—"Earth Not a Globe", Samuel Birley Rowbotham


Here Rowbotham confirms that LIGHT itself causes the object to appear larger. Not that the object itself increases in size. So if it's only the LIGHT of the sun which makes it appear larger than what it is, then why does the video show the sun not shrinking with perspective as its moving towards the horizon?

And again...in the photos of the receding street lamps - it's only the brightly glowing bulbs that seem to "grow" in size - the light poles themselves don't retain their size.   The claim must be that they aren't bright enough to cause the effect - but yet the dimmest planets can be shown to produce a disk that doesn't get smaller as they cross the horizon.

So the "sunset phenomenon" can't possibly have anything to do with the brightness of the object.

Which brings us back to Tom's "magic perspective" that somehow moves the apparent positions of things to the horizon - but doesn't also squash them flat or make them get smaller like "normal" perspective.  His claim that this is due to the brightness of the sun doesn't explain the setting of the moon, stars, planets, etc...so it's clearly not true.

Tom's is an indefensible claim...it simply doesn't hold water EVEN IF you accept it's premise.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2017, 04:08:27 PM »
Quoted post moved here: https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6541.msg127204#msg127204

This post was already split and moved to the lower fora. No need to post it again. It wasn't interesting the first time and still isn't. Please refrain from low-content posing in the upper fora. Warned.