Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2017, 03:30:25 PM »
Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?

1. From Wiki - 'The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.'


What ISN'T wrong with that statement?

#1 it is an assertion unsupported by any observation or fact.  Your simplistic appeals are not sound arguments.

#2 atmoSPHERIC refraction, caused by the pressure differential created by gravity, causes the sun to actually appear to SHRINK along the vertical axis in the moments before sunset and this shrinking fits completely within the Globe model (http://aty.sdsu.edu/explain/atmos_refr/flattening.html -- note how I have the model, the science, and observation on my side?).  The WIDTH of the sun remains the same.  Your appeal to unevidenced atmoSPHERIC effects do not hold water as the Globe does due to Gravity.

#3 the AMOUNT of magnification required to keep a 3000-something-mile distant Sun the same size as it zooms off would require nuclear explosion levels of changes in the atmoSPHERE that would end all human life.  Please show me where YOU calculated the temperature and pressure differentials required to maintain such an effect and explained how they magically don't appear to anyone else but the distant observer and how they manage even greater horizontal magnification!

#4 a huge proportion of Flat Earthers claim it does shrink - here is a little helpful graphic to help stop them from embarrassing themselves and your 'movement'




Flat Earth thoroughly debunked: https://flatearthinsanity.blogspot.com/

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2017, 03:54:21 PM »
Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

What is wrong with the explanation?

1. From Wiki - 'The sun remains the same size as it recedes into the distance due to a known magnification effect caused by the intense rays of light passing through the strata of the atmolayer.'


OK Tom.  Let me explain why it's incorrect.  I'll try to use simple words and no math for your benefit.

What is wrong with this claim is that if only objects with "intense" light remain the same size - then this doesn't explain how the Moon also sets over the horizon without getting smaller.

And if you claim that the moon is sufficiently intense - how about (for example) Jupiter?  It certainly sets over the horizon when it's in the Northern hemisphere skies (as it has been for many months).

Jupiter is a rather dim object.  It's easy to show that the disk of Jupiter remains the same size as it crosses the horizon - just as the sun does.

You can see Jupiter's disk quite well with a 200x telescope.  Tom claims to own a 500x scope - so he can go out tonight and observe this for himself quite easily.

So if "intense rays of light" are the cause of constant sizes of objects as the cross the sky - then objects that are clearly not "intense" should get smaller.   We know that airplanes get smaller - so anything that's no brighter than an airplane should get smaller.  Jupiter is MUCH dimmer than an airplane.

Also, what about this picture?  It's a photo of the recent solar eclipse at sunset:



The sun is pretty dim at this point - yet it's still a perfect circle. (Google "solar eclipse at sunset" and you'll find a bunch more).

So this entry in the Wiki is CLEARLY 100% incorrect.

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Why would we give a different explanation other than the one published in the Wiki and our Flat Earth literature?

Because the one you give there is clearly not true.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #22 on: September 30, 2017, 04:40:58 AM »
OK Tom.  Let me explain why it's incorrect.  I'll try to use simple words and no math for your benefit.

What is wrong with this claim is that if only objects with "intense" light remain the same size - then this doesn't explain how the Moon also sets over the horizon without getting smaller.

And if you claim that the moon is sufficiently intense - how about (for example) Jupiter?  It certainly sets over the horizon when it's in the Northern hemisphere skies (as it has been for many months).

Jupiter is a rather dim object.  It's easy to show that the disk of Jupiter remains the same size as it crosses the horizon - just as the sun does.

You can see Jupiter's disk quite well with a 200x telescope.  Tom claims to own a 500x scope - so he can go out tonight and observe this for himself quite easily.

Jupiter and the stars fade out before hitting the horizon.

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So if "intense rays of light" are the cause of constant sizes of objects as the cross the sky - then objects that are clearly not "intense" should get smaller.   We know that airplanes get smaller - so anything that's no brighter than an airplane should get smaller.  Jupiter is MUCH dimmer than an airplane.

Your logic is fallacious. Jupiter is not seen at the horizon.

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The sun is pretty dim at this point - yet it's still a perfect circle. (Google "solar eclipse at sunset" and you'll find a bunch more).

The absolute intensity of the sun is the same. The sun is bright enough to project onto the atmosphere. From that point it may dim with increased distance. The same may be true of the stars or the moon.

Your logic that the sun should follow the same rules as a less luminous object is not equatable. The sun exists as a bright object and at its setting we are seeing it when it is diluted after it has passed through a lot of atmosphere. The situations is not comparable to bodies which are non-luminous or of less luminosity.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 05:23:12 AM by Tom Bishop »

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #23 on: September 30, 2017, 05:31:19 AM »
Your logic is fallacious. Jupiter is not seen at the horizon.

WHAT?!?!  How can you simply guess - or barefacedly lie about such things?

Here is a photo of the moon and Jupiter on the horizon:



I can clearly see Jupiter set from my back porch every evening - it's a naked eye object.

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Also, what about this picture?  It's a photo of the recent solar eclipse at sunset:


The sun is pretty dim at this point - yet it's still a perfect circle. (Google "solar eclipse at sunset" and you'll find a bunch more).

The absolute intensity of the sun is the same. The sun is bright enough to project onto the atmosphere. From that point it may dim with increased distance. The same may be true of the stars or the moon.

Your logic that the sun should follow the same rules as a less luminous object is not equatable. The sun exists as a bright object and we are seeing it when it is diluted after it has passed through a lot of atmosphere. The situations is not comparable to bodies which are non-luminous or of less luminosity.

Can anyone understand what Tom just said here?

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The absolute intensity of the sun is the same.

Er..no...the world around you goes DARK during a solar eclipse.  It's like midnight...there is no way the intensity is the same.   The moon is blocking almost all of the light from it.

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The sun is bright enough to project onto the atmosphere.

How can anything project onto something that's transparent?!?  This is just babble.

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From that point it may dim with increased distance. The same may be true of the stars or the moon.

But the Wiki says that only INTENSE light does this.   There are stars that are extremely dim.

So are you saying that there are THREE completely separate mechanisms?

1) For "intense" light sources (even if blocked almost completely by the moon), then the intensity of the light makes them bigger in defiance of perspective (even "altered perspective").
2) For Jupiter - they fade out before reaching the horizon (clearly, demonstrably, untrue).
3) For stars and moon...which are dim...something else?!?  (We can easily see the moon set without the moon getting smaller - that's a naked eye test!)

Tom - your explanations are spiralling away into confusion here.

Could you perhaps take the time to write a simple description about how sunsets/moonsets/planetsets and starsets happen - checking first your facts about what can and cannot be seen - and accounting both for the depression of the object onto the horizon AND the surprising fact that these things don't get smaller with range - no matter the brightness.

Because right now, you're giving a very tangled unclear explanation.

(Oh...and DO tell us how the photons get from the physical location of the sun/moon into my eyes at sunset!  We're all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting for your pronouncement on this one!)
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2017, 05:43:17 AM »
Er..no...the world around you goes DARK during a solar eclipse.  It's like midnight...there is no way the intensity is the same.   The moon is blocking almost all of the light from it.

Any section of the sun that is revealed is bright enough to catch onto the atmosphere.

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How can anything project onto something that's transparent?!?  This is just babble.

The atmosphere is semi-transparent. Look at a distant mountain sometime. It will be diluted in color.

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But the Wiki says that only INTENSE light does this.   There are stars that are extremely dim.

The intensity between space and the atmosphere is a different matter than between the atmosphere and the eye.

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2) For Jupiter - they fade out before reaching the horizon (clearly, demonstrably, untrue).

Incorrect. Look at a startrail. The stars fade and most celestial bodies fade out before hitting the horizon.

http://www.capella-observatory.com/images/StarTrails/STRICHSPUR-08.jpg

http://www.astronet.ru/db/msg/1210491/eng/

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3) For stars and moon...which are dim...something else?!?  (We can easily see the moon set without the moon getting smaller - that's a naked eye test!)

Again, the intensity between space and the atmosphere is different than the intensity between the atmosphere and the eye.

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Tom - your explanations are spiralling away into confusion here.

Could you perhaps take the time to write a simple description about how sunsets/moonsets/planetsets and starsets happen - checking first your facts about what can and cannot be seen - and accounting both for the depression of the object onto the horizon AND the surprising fact that these things don't get smaller with range - no matter the brightness.

Refer to the explanation in the Wiki. You have pointed out no contradictions except to say things like the horizon makes things dim and therefore the enlarging effect should not occur. Your reasoning does not consider the intensity of the bodies between space and the atmosphere.

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(Oh...and DO tell us how the photons get from the physical location of the sun/moon into my eyes at sunset!  We're all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting for your pronouncement on this one!)

This was already explained to you.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 05:49:24 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #25 on: September 30, 2017, 05:49:58 AM »
Your logic is fallacious. Jupiter is not seen at the horizon.

WHAT?!?!  How can you simply guess - or barefacedly lie about such things?

Here is a photo of the moon and Jupiter on the horizon:



You are wrong. This is not a photograph.

Look at where the image appears on this website: https://astrojourney.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/events-for-september-2010-center-stage-for-the-georgian-star-as-introduced-by-jupiter/

Notice the caption beneath it: "This shows where the Moon and Jupiter will be at sunset, but you probably won't be bale to pick Jupiter out for another half hour or more. It will tag along with the Moon as they both rise. (Prepared from Starry Nights Pro screen shot.)"

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2017, 05:50:17 AM »
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(Oh...and DO tell us how the photons get from the physical location of the sun/moon into my eyes at sunset!  We're all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting for your pronouncement on this one!)

This was already explained to you.

No you most certainly have not - and you KNOW it.   You've never once told us exactly what path a photon takes as it travels from the PHYSICAL location of the sun (3000 miles above someplace on Earth where it's Noon right now) into my eye when I'm looking at the sun at sunset.

You've dodged and avoided and answered entirely different questions - but you have NOT answered this one.  PANTS...ON...FIRE!!!

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2017, 05:56:05 AM »
Your logic is fallacious. Jupiter is not seen at the horizon.

WHAT?!?!  How can you simply guess - or barefacedly lie about such things?

Here is a photo of the moon and Jupiter on the horizon:



You are wrong. This is not a photograph.

Look at where the image appears on this website: https://astrojourney.wordpress.com/2010/08/22/events-for-september-2010-center-stage-for-the-georgian-star-as-introduced-by-jupiter/

Notice the caption beneath it: "This shows where the Moon and Jupiter will be at sunset, but you probably won't be bale to pick Jupiter out for another half hour or more. It will tag along with the Moon as they both rise. (Prepared from Starry Nights Pro screen shot.)"

Oh...my bad!  I picked one of the MANY from Google images. Here is a better one - along with an article that describes how and when the picture was taken:


Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2017, 06:08:00 AM »
Oh...my bad!  I picked one of the MANY from Google images. Here is a better one - along with an article that describes how and when the picture was taken:

https://www.space.com/14875-venus-jupiter-skywatcher-photos-march-2012.html

Neither planet is at the horizon. In fact, we see that they are above the portion of the sky that changes color, where the atmosphere begins to builds up in the distance. All stars in that picture fade out in that area. That discolored area is where the not-perfectly-transparent atmosphere builds up to block out most celestial bodies and significantly dim the sun and moon.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 06:11:39 AM »
Quote
(Oh...and DO tell us how the photons get from the physical location of the sun/moon into my eyes at sunset!  We're all sitting on the edges of our seats waiting for your pronouncement on this one!)

This was already explained to you.

No you most certainly have not - and you KNOW it.   You've never once told us exactly what path a photon takes as it travels from the PHYSICAL location of the sun (3000 miles above someplace on Earth where it's Noon right now) into my eye when I'm looking at the sun at sunset.

You've dodged and avoided and answered entirely different questions - but you have NOT answered this one.  PANTS...ON...FIRE!!!

I have explained this to you on multiple occasions. I will can make a thread specifically for you when I have time, but you will have to wait. In the meantime you should go back and review our past conversations. This is not really on topic to this thread.

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 04:32:52 PM »
I have explained this to you on multiple occasions. I will can make a thread specifically for you when I have time, but you will have to wait. In the meantime you should go back and review our past conversations. This is not really on topic to this thread.

Here is one especially relevant past conversation relating to perspective. An attentive reader may notice that Tom did not 'explain this' to anyone.

The topics of perspective, sunset, and the apparent size of the sun are closely related, and it makes sense to combine them in any debate thread. After all, that thread just picked up on where this debate thread about sunsets left off. We're circling the same set of topics, so let us embrace all of them.

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2017, 10:36:36 PM »
I was looking at the star trail pictures Tom posted up above and I wondered where the perspective convergence is.
If the stars are all moving away from us off into the distance until the horizon and stars meet at the vanishing point. Should they not also converge horizontally and not just vertically?  Shouldn't start trails look like this...


instead of this...
There's nothing more dangerous than an idea, if it's the only one you have. -Émile Chartier

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2017, 07:52:39 AM »
3DGeek I have to also point out that the eclipse photo is clearly a picture of an annular eclipse. This is not the same thing as a total eclipse, the photosphere of the sun is still visible and is quite bright.

That being said, the "video of headlights" explanation on the wiki page does conflict with the annular eclipse photo.

People looking at the video of headlights and saying that the headlights don't get any bigger are ignoring two really important things:
- The sun, if it is 3000 miles away as in some FE theories, is approximately 30 miles wide. Headlights are 3 inches wide, and would appear to be smaller than the sun even at only 30 feet away from us.
- the DISTANCE BETWEEN THE HEADLIGHTS does change as you would expect.

The annular eclipse photo is essentially a ring of headlights. Why does the annular eclipse ring not shrink at the horizon when the distance between headlights does shrink in all the videos that are supposed to explain how perspective doesn't work for bright objects?

Re: Why doesn't the sun get smaller with perspective?
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2017, 07:56:07 AM »
Also: I have an ENTIRE THREAD on star tracks that doesn't seem to be getting anywhere:
https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6818.0

Even in the photo Tom posted, you can see the curvature of the star tracks stop as you get to the celestial equator. In flat earth theory, the star tracks should all form circles around the north celestial pole, right? Eagerly awaiting flat earth hypotheses for the southern stars.