Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #20 on: September 14, 2017, 01:58:29 PM »
@Stinky and @xenotolerance

Could I please just request that you don't derail the conversation into why airplanes disappear over the horizon.

This allows Tom to duck out of the interesting corner we have him boxed into right now and invites him to start talking about things like airplanes over the horizon which is a topic he feels more able to answer.   His answer (I can pretty much guarantee) will be some variation on "alternate perspective"...yeah, I know that's crap - but if you want to debate that, please join the thread about perspective.

Thanks!
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #21 on: September 14, 2017, 02:14:02 PM »
Where has it been shown that the clouds are being lit from underneath? I say that they are being lit from the side at those low altitudes and that is what causes the color change.

Sorry - the ORANGE sunlight (yes, I think we can agree that the sun appears to be ORANGE at sunset) is clearly on the underside of the clouds.   That's clear in my photos and in the one taken from an airplane.

We know the sun is orange right at the point of sunset - presumably FET has some explanation for that...probably the same one as in RET - that the sunlight is passing through more air at that angle and more of the shorter wavelength light is being scattered away.

The color matters because the sun is orange and the UNDERSIDE of the clouds is orange.

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I don't know what you are talking about. It appears as if the higher grey clouds are being lit from above somewhere. If all of the light were coming from the bottom the top of those clouds should be dark. However, they are not dark.

As I'm sure you're aware, there is light coming from the sky as well as from the sun.  The sky is still blue - and that provides sufficient "skylight" to dimly illuminate the cloud tops...which appear as a slightly blueish grey.

But it's absolutely obvious that the SUN illumination is orange and only the BOTTOMS of the clouds are orange.

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This is a proof against your idea that all of the light is shining upwards from the bottom.

It is indeed proof that *ALL* of the light isn't shining from the bottom - there is a small amount of skylight making the tops grey.  But it is NOT proof that any ORANGE sunlight is shining on the tops of the clouds.  There is no sign of any orange light from the sky shining onto the tops of the clouds as FET would predict.

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It cannot be argued that the top grey clouds are illuminated by the sky, either, since we see that there are areas of darkness and shadow in those top grey clouds; they are not universally lit by sky reflection.

My, you are getting desperate aren't you!   It most certainly CAN be argued that way.

When you next see the sun set.  Look carefully at the color of the sky across the entire 360 degrees.   You'll see that very close to where the sun is setting, it's orange.   Further away and higher up, it shades through blue and ultimately towards black on the horizon furthest from the sun.

This means that the light from the sky isn't uniform - as it (kinda) is in full daylight.   It's a directional light source.

What that means is that the sides of the clouds nearest to the sunset are being lit by the bluer colors of the sky light - and the sides furthest from the sunset are darker.  That's most obvious in the airplane photograph.

As an add to the last bit here, do you notice how the dark parts are where the clouds are curving away from being 'pointing' at the sky? How it's the *sides* of the clouds that are in darkness? Just like how it would be in the two sources of light were above them and below them? As well since you keep mentioning this, these clouds would all appear to be at the same height. There are no 'grey clouds' to go along with 'orange clouds' there are clouds lit by the sun in orange on the bottom, and lit from above by the sky that are gray. Then we have the sides that aren't being well lit by either that are much darker. As well as I believe the nearest bit that's very dark on the right is actually a hole looking at the ocean. Hence why it's so dark despite appearing like it should be 'on top' and thus gray.

Offline StinkyOne

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #22 on: September 14, 2017, 02:54:53 PM »
@Stinky and @xenotolerance

Could I please just request that you don't derail the conversation into why airplanes disappear over the horizon.

This allows Tom to duck out of the interesting corner we have him boxed into right now and invites him to start talking about things like airplanes over the horizon which is a topic he feels more able to answer.   His answer (I can pretty much guarantee) will be some variation on "alternate perspective"...yeah, I know that's crap - but if you want to debate that, please join the thread about perspective.

Thanks!

Sorry, sure thing.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #23 on: September 14, 2017, 08:43:10 PM »
Sorry - the ORANGE sunlight (yes, I think we can agree that the sun appears to be ORANGE at sunset) is clearly on the underside of the clouds.   That's clear in my photos and in the one taken from an airplane.

We know the sun is orange right at the point of sunset - presumably FET has some explanation for that...probably the same one as in RET - that the sunlight is passing through more air at that angle and more of the shorter wavelength light is being scattered away.

The color matters because the sun is orange and the UNDERSIDE of the clouds is orange.

For the lower clouds the sun is at the horizon and an orange sunset is occurring.

For the higher clouds the sun is higher in the air and the sunset is not occurring for them.

As mentioned before, if we increase our height rapidly right after sunset we can restore the sun and bring it back into the sky. This is what is happening with the clouds in the instant that photograph was taken -- the lower ones see the sunset and the higher ones do not.

It is not the "underside" of the clouds that are illuminated, it is the portion of the clouds that are lower in altitude that are illuminated. The lower clouds are seeing the sunset.
 
Any questions?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #24 on: September 14, 2017, 08:46:58 PM »
Sorry - the ORANGE sunlight (yes, I think we can agree that the sun appears to be ORANGE at sunset) is clearly on the underside of the clouds.   That's clear in my photos and in the one taken from an airplane.

We know the sun is orange right at the point of sunset - presumably FET has some explanation for that...probably the same one as in RET - that the sunlight is passing through more air at that angle and more of the shorter wavelength light is being scattered away.

The color matters because the sun is orange and the UNDERSIDE of the clouds is orange.

For the lower clouds the sun is at the horizon and an orange sunset is occurring.

But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

Quote
For the higher clouds the sun is higher in the air and the sunset is not occurring for them.

As mentioned before, if we increase our height rapidly right after sunset we can restore the sun and bring it back into the sky. This is what is happening with the clouds in the instant that photograph was taken -- the lower ones see the sunset and the higher ones do not.

Any questions?
Yeah...how does this light (that travels in straight lines - you agreed) get from up high in the sky (30 degrees up)...then down, around and under the clouds?   Seems like it's gotta bend in a big curve - turning through an angle of significantly more than 30 degrees to do that.

It is not the "underside" of the clouds that are illuminated, it is the portion of the clouds that are lower in altitude that are illuminated. The lower clouds are seeing the sunset.
Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.
« Last Edit: September 14, 2017, 08:48:43 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #25 on: September 14, 2017, 09:47:31 PM »
But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

No. Light from objects on the horizon are coming in horizontally. The horizon is at eye level and 90 degrees from zenith, and this is where the light is coming from.

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If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

It's not coming from the underside of the clouds. The clouds, or potion of the clouds, are simply at a lower altitude where sunset is occurring. The light is coming in from the side from the horizon.

Quote
Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.

The top of the grey clouds are at a higher altitude than the orange clouds.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #26 on: September 14, 2017, 10:31:12 PM »
But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

No. Light from objects on the horizon are coming in horizontally. The horizon is at eye level and 90 degrees from zenith, and this is where the light is coming from.

Quote
If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

It's not coming from the underside of the clouds. The clouds, or potion of the clouds, are simply at a lower altitude where sunset is occurring. The light is coming in from the side from the horizon.

Quote
Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.

The top of the grey clouds are at a higher altitude than the orange clouds.

Ok, Tom, let's say the rays are coming at a 90 degree angle. In flat Earth, it is literally impossible for the sun to ever be 90 degrees (i.e. on the same level) as clouds which are  only a few miles above the Earth. The sun could be 93 million miles away and it would still not be 90 degrees from the vertical in a flat Earth scenario.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #27 on: September 14, 2017, 10:53:04 PM »
But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

No. Light from objects on the horizon are coming in horizontally. The horizon is at eye level and 90 degrees from zenith, and this is where the light is coming from.

Quote
If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

It's not coming from the underside of the clouds. The clouds, or potion of the clouds, are simply at a lower altitude where sunset is occurring. The light is coming in from the side from the horizon.

Quote
Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.

The top of the grey clouds are at a higher altitude than the orange clouds.
Wait, wait, wait. Is that seriously what you're claiming now? Really? That not only does perspective somehow mysteriously make the sun go below the horizon, but this apparently actually means that 'the sunset' is like a band of light or something that moves up from bottom to top on these clouds? Alright then, let's see it. Show us the orange sunset across the top of clouds while the bottoms are in darkness. Surely if this is what happens there should be plenty of images of it out there. I'll wait. If that however isn't what you are trying to say here, I urge you to elucidate. Even better, give us some actual rules for how your mysterious perspective works in these scenarios. -grabs popcorn- This gonna be good.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #28 on: September 15, 2017, 12:40:14 AM »
That not only does perspective somehow mysteriously make the sun go below the horizon

I never claimed that perspective alone caused the sun to go below the horizon. The perspective angles merge in the distance, and photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once. Some of these photons are blocked out since the earth is not perfectly or mathematically flat and there are slight imperfections on the surface, as the perfect lines merge into the non-perfect earth.

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but this apparently actually means that 'the sunset' is like a band of light or something that moves up from bottom to top on these clouds?

Yes. The same thing is claimed to happen on a Round Earth. A person at the bottom of Mt. Everest sees the sunset before a person at the top of Mt. Everest in the Round Earth model. A band of light travels from bottom to top.

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Alright then, let's see it. Show us the orange sunset across the top of clouds while the bottoms are in darkness.

Why should I? Do you disbelieve your own model where there is also a band of light?
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #29 on: September 15, 2017, 01:04:45 AM »
That not only does perspective somehow mysteriously make the sun go below the horizon

I never claimed that perspective alone caused the sun to go below the horizon. The perspective angles merge in the distance, and photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once. Some of these photons are blocked out since the earth is not perfectly or mathematically flat and there are slight imperfections on the surface, as the perfect lines merge into the non-perfect earth.

Tom, as you have been told in the past, perspective is a function of the eye, not nature.  Nothing of what you say here would cause the sun to illuminate the side or bottoms of clouds. "Crowding of photons" does not change their origin or angle of travel. I can watch a train get smaller in the distance, but the train never changes size or position. The tracks never get any closer together. The is a limitation of my human eye and how my brain interprets what I'm seeing.

You're really being very disingenuous on this one. It is clear those clouds are being illuminated from below.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #30 on: September 15, 2017, 01:13:53 AM »
Explain how a sun 3000 miles up can cast a shadow of Mt Rainer onto a layer of clouds?? This mean the light HAS to be BELOW the level of the mountain. Try to create a shadow on your ceiling with a light shining down or even level - you can not do it without angling the light source up.

« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 12:12:34 PM by StinkyOne »
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #31 on: September 15, 2017, 02:26:55 AM »
That not only does perspective somehow mysteriously make the sun go below the horizon

I never claimed that perspective alone caused the sun to go below the horizon. The perspective angles merge in the distance, and photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once. Some of these photons are blocked out since the earth is not perfectly or mathematically flat and there are slight imperfections on the surface, as the perfect lines merge into the non-perfect earth.

Quote
but this apparently actually means that 'the sunset' is like a band of light or something that moves up from bottom to top on these clouds?

Yes. The same thing is claimed to happen on a Round Earth. A person at the bottom of Mt. Everest sees the sunset before a person at the top of Mt. Everest in the Round Earth model. A band of light travels from bottom to top.

Quote
Alright then, let's see it. Show us the orange sunset across the top of clouds while the bottoms are in darkness.

Why should I? Do you disbelieve your own model where there is also a band of light?
But in RE the sun in fact DOESN'T move from the top to the bottom of the clouds. It will shine upon the bottom of them, and then starting at the location closest to us it the light will vanish from them until they are dark. The tops of the clouds will not be lit from the time the sun goes 'below' them, to the time after sunrise where it is 'above' them. In FE the sun is *always* above the clouds. So how can the light be hitting the clouds from the bottom like that?

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #32 on: September 15, 2017, 02:44:09 PM »
I never claimed that perspective alone caused the sun to go below the horizon. The perspective angles merge in the distance, and photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once. Some of these photons are blocked out since the earth is not perfectly or mathematically flat and there are slight imperfections on the surface, as the perfect lines merge into the non-perfect earth.

Oh...my...god!

Oh...Tom - you're now proclaiming an entirely new FE theory!  Squished-up photons fighting for space!   How exciting!

I love new theories!  So much more to debunk!

Previously you'd told us that light travels in straight lines.  Just one month ago, in https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6710.msg122642#msg122642 you said:

"I have argued in favor of EA in the past when the theory was first proposed, but have since tended to prefer the theory that light travels in straight lines and that perspective is the explanation for why the view of the sun is limited..."



So...if the sun is up THERE...and the undersides of the clouds are lit...then the light cannot have followed the straight line path indicated by the blue line to get there.  It can only have followed something like the orange curve...but Tom says that light travels in straight lines...so WTF?!

In that same thread ("Re: Disproof of FET using refraction." - in which I admitted my error in assuming you were claiming that "refraction" causes sunsets) this exchange took place:

From my understanding in his other threads, 'modified' perspective simply postulates that the vanishing point occurs closer than infinity. He makes this claim (his words, not mine) because - roughly - "The Ancient Greeks never studied perspective theory for long distances, so we have no idea how it works for longer distances or if there is a vanishing point closer than at infinity." Essentially from what I've seen, he claims the horizon is due to the point at which perspective makes all lines converge into one point, and going past that somehow can make the sun appear to go behind something it's above.

Yes, this is a general summary of the argument.  The perspective lines meet at a finite distance, not an infinite distance as described by the Ancient Greeks. This describes why the sun appears to descent and meet the horizon a finite distance away, as opposed to an infinite distance away.

As for why the sun disappears from the bottom up, the explanation is that the perspective lines are perfect, but the surface of the earth is not perfect, and there will be an area upon which something can disappear behind. It is mentioned in Earth Not a Globe that the sunset takes longer when the seas are calm compared to when they are more disturbed.

Now you're saying "I never claimed that perspective alone caused the sun to go below the horizon."...and reading CAREFULLY, you didn't say that perspective alone caused it to go BELOW the horizon...but you clearly are saying that there is also something about the earth being imperfect...um...OK...kinda.

But this phenomena of clouds being lit from below happens before the sun goes BELOW the horizon...so that's no excuse.

"The perspective angles merge in the distance, and photons from that area are increasingly trying to occupy the same space at once."

Oh boy...this is premium-grade FE bullshit!

What happens with perspective?  Well, light from widely separated points is focussed onto the retina of your eye.  Those rays of light only "merge" in the back of your eyeball...they aren't merging out someplace on the horizon!  You have that entirely backwards.  (Which probably explains why you keep failing to understand to my "Pinhole camera" diagrams...)

So any "crowding of photons" (sorry - there are physicists rolling on the floor laughing at that one!) happens inside your eye...not on the underside of a cloud or someplace out at the horizon.

Really - you'd be able to understand how light works if you concentrated only on the paths that the rays of light take - from their source - to whatever they illuminate - and from there to our eyes.

The light from the sun (which is 30 degrees up in the sky in FE reality) - have to reach the UNDERSIDE of that cloud - without bending (because you agree that doesn't happen).

HOW DOES THIS HAPPEN?
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline junker

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #33 on: September 15, 2017, 03:17:06 PM »
Great example photos. Can't wait to hear an FE explanation  :)
I'm assuming it'll be biodegradable luminous pink dye sprayed out of NASA aircraft to help with the coverup.  :-)

 :D :D

Last warning for low-content. Next one is a 3-day ban.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #34 on: September 15, 2017, 03:36:44 PM »
Great example photos. Can't wait to hear an FE explanation  :)
I'm assuming it'll be biodegradable luminous pink dye sprayed out of NASA aircraft to help with the coverup.  :-)

 :D :D

Last warning for low-content. Next one is a 3-day ban.

I think, given the enormous volume of extremely high-content stuff I post, I should be allowed an occasional piece of light humor...it's not like I'm a serial "low-content-poster".  However, if you believe it's ban-worthy, then this response is too - so could I ask that you pre-emptivly ban me for 3 days right now...I could use a break over the weekend!
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #35 on: September 15, 2017, 03:48:28 PM »
Great example photos. Can't wait to hear an FE explanation  :)
I'm assuming it'll be biodegradable luminous pink dye sprayed out of NASA aircraft to help with the coverup.  :-)

 :D :D

Last warning for low-content. Next one is a 3-day ban.

I think, given the enormous volume of extremely high-content stuff I post, I should be allowed an occasional piece of light humor...it's not like I'm a serial "low-content-poster".  However, if you believe it's ban-worthy, then this response is too - so could I ask that you pre-emptivly ban me for 3 days right now...I could use a break over the weekend!
Psst, I believe he was talking about Duniya's
Quote
:D:D
in this instance. ;) But a nice break is exactly what I'll be taking shortly myself.

As a small on topic bit, Tom has mentioned the 'squished up photons' explanation (partly) for his perspective bit before. I'm still not sure how that can be a thing along with being able to see farther when you go up in height thought to be honest. It seems the idea should have a viewing limit of some form where you can't see past 'X' distance.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #36 on: September 15, 2017, 04:03:52 PM »
Psst, I believe he was talking about Duniya's
Quote
:D:D
in this instance. ;) But a nice break is exactly what I'll be taking shortly myself.
Hmmm...maybe you're right...I've not been banned yet - and it really would be nice to take a break!
Quote
As a small on topic bit, Tom has mentioned the 'squished up photons' explanation (partly) for his perspective bit before. I'm still not sure how that can be a thing along with being able to see farther when you go up in height thought to be honest. It seems the idea should have a viewing limit of some form where you can't see past 'X' distance.

Oh - really?   I vaguely recall something about "The sun's photons are too bright to grab onto the air"...but that's not the right quote.

The FE folks already have a need for "can't see past 'X'" to explain why you can't see Mount Everest from an airplane.

But photons fighting to get into your eye is pretty hilarious...makes you wonder how telescopes and microscopes work.

It think the deep problem here is that Tom is mentally incapable of seeing "perspective" as a mere phenomenon caused by the focussing of straight-line-traveling-light through a small aperture.

His utter failure to respond to the simplest of geometric explanation in the Pinhole Camera thread is quite telling...and his response to this thread merely amplifies the depth of his confusion.

My diagram clearly shows that no matter how you flim-flam and handwave - the light from the sun can ONLY get under the cloud by bending through an angle of more than 30 degrees.   

All mention of weird perspective and crowding of photons notwithstanding - the light has to get from A to B without curving and it can't.

That means that the sun ain't where Tom thinks it is - and if (as he says) light travels in straight lines - the only POSSIBLE place is buried a few hundred miles underground someplace over in the next continent!



« Last Edit: September 15, 2017, 04:11:59 PM by 3DGeek »
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #37 on: September 15, 2017, 04:29:22 PM »
A sidenote regarding 'squished up photons':

Photons can occupy identical quantum states as each other. That means that no matter how 'squished up' they get, they will not repel each other, so any number of photons can occupy the same space and none of them will get 'blocked out.'

Wikipedia has some good explanations of the relevant quantum mechanics:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pauli_exclusion_principle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boson

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #38 on: September 15, 2017, 07:33:19 PM »
But in FET it isn't...it's still physically, 30 degrees up in the sky...according to what you've been telling us about sunsets, it only LOOKS like it's on the horizon because of some "weird" perspective thing...right?

No. Light from objects on the horizon are coming in horizontally. The horizon is at eye level and 90 degrees from zenith, and this is where the light is coming from.

Quote
If light travels in straight lines (which I agree it does) then how does the light from the sun come down UNDER the clouds, then back up again to light up the undersides?

It's not coming from the underside of the clouds. The clouds, or potion of the clouds, are simply at a lower altitude where sunset is occurring. The light is coming in from the side from the horizon.

Quote
Look carefully at the image from the airplane...you can CLEARLY see that a particular cloud is grey on top and orange below - and fading gently from one color to the other.

The top of the grey clouds are at a higher altitude than the orange clouds.
Please provide a diagram to explain in detail.

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #39 on: September 15, 2017, 07:35:08 PM »
Psst, I believe he was talking about Duniya's
Quote
:D:D
in this instance. ;) But a nice break is exactly what I'll be taking shortly myself.
Hmmm...maybe you're right...I've not been banned yet - and it really would be nice to take a break!
Quote
As a small on topic bit, Tom has mentioned the 'squished up photons' explanation (partly) for his perspective bit before. I'm still not sure how that can be a thing along with being able to see farther when you go up in height thought to be honest. It seems the idea should have a viewing limit of some form where you can't see past 'X' distance.

Oh - really?   I vaguely recall something about "The sun's photons are too bright to grab onto the air"...but that's not the right quote.

The FE folks already have a need for "can't see past 'X'" to explain why you can't see Mount Everest from an airplane.

But photons fighting to get into your eye is pretty hilarious...makes you wonder how telescopes and microscopes work.

It think the deep problem here is that Tom is mentally incapable of seeing "perspective" as a mere phenomenon caused by the focussing of straight-line-traveling-light through a small aperture.

His utter failure to respond to the simplest of geometric explanation in the Pinhole Camera thread is quite telling...and his response to this thread merely amplifies the depth of his confusion.

My diagram clearly shows that no matter how you flim-flam and handwave - the light from the sun can ONLY get under the cloud by bending through an angle of more than 30 degrees.   

All mention of weird perspective and crowding of photons notwithstanding - the light has to get from A to B without curving and it can't.

That means that the sun ain't where Tom thinks it is - and if (as he says) light travels in straight lines - the only POSSIBLE place is buried a few hundred miles underground someplace over in the next continent!
Tom has found the word perspective and believes people will believe his use of it, or not.