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Offline xenotolerance

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #40 on: September 15, 2017, 08:19:45 PM »
I found a video of a computer model relevant to the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexZbunD7Jg

It's 3 minutes long, uses a sun at a 3000 mile altitude, and clearly shows that the proposed model has no resemblance to any observation.

Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #41 on: September 16, 2017, 02:34:40 PM »
I found a video of a computer model relevant to the discussion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uexZbunD7Jg

It's 3 minutes long, uses a sun at a 3000 mile altitude, and clearly shows that the proposed model has no resemblance to any observation.

Wow!  That's a beautiful demonstration!

The FE'ers have to rely on this hokey "alternative perspective" thing to explain maybe 50% of the things that video highlights...but I've debunked that with the "Pinhole camera" proof.   The remaining 50% are mostly things we've discussed here - how the stars appear in the southern hemisphere - how the phases of the moon can't work when you're seeing the moon from all sides - that kind of thing.

I didn't see anything in the video that we haven't already brought up - but I also didn't see anything that the resident FE'ers have actually managed to explain coherently.

Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?


Offline 3DGeek

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #43 on: September 17, 2017, 02:11:24 PM »
Another one, more specifically about Rowbotham's perspective

That's good - but it's more complicated (and therefore more open to the usual FE 'fud') than my Pinhole camera description.

For a normal lens, you need to make assumptions about focal lengths and other confusing details - but because you can photograph sunsets perfectly well with a pinhole camera (which is always in focus everywhere) - we can greatly simplify the answer with a simple diagram.   (Which Tom carefully chooses not to comment on!)
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #44 on: September 18, 2017, 03:42:29 AM »
I just wanna post this guy over here as well, a wonderful video provided by our friend Terry50 showing a plane flying over the clouds where the sun can clearly be seen not only lighting up the clouds from below, but actually seemingly *beneath* the clouds from 28,000 feet. Something that cannot happen on a FE, so long as light travels in straight lines.

https://forum.tfes.org/index.php?topic=6903.msg126147#msg126147

The video for easy reference:


So Tom, whatcha got for us? BTW Terry50 has already said it isn't green screen in his original post.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #45 on: September 18, 2017, 09:51:55 AM »
You are sitting on your porch, watching a plane fly into the distance. The plane is at an altitude of 5,000 feet at all times. Your porch has a 3.5 foot high fence/deck railing along its perimeter. Your house is located just a little above sea level, looking into a flat horizon. As you sit you can see a bright sky above and you can see the horizon below the top level of your deck railing and between the slits.

It is possible for the receding plane to start off overhead, and as time progresses, eventually appear below the top of the 3.5 foot high deck railing as it approaches the horizon. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

This example above should show how silly the question is; and how the result is clearly due to perspective. You may as well be curious how you can raise your hands above the level of any clouds you see in the distance and be lost in wonder how your 5 foot tall hands can seem to get above clouds which are thousands of feet high in the distance, because this scenario would be as equally confounding, based on your understanding of the world.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #46 on: September 18, 2017, 11:05:36 AM »
You are sitting on your porch, watching a plane fly into the distance. The plane is at an altitude of 5,000 feet at all times. Your porch has a 3.5 foot high fence/deck railing along its perimeter. Your house is located just a little above sea level, looking into a flat horizon. As you sit you can see a bright sky above and you can see the horizon below the top level of your deck railing and between the slits.

It is possible for the receding plane to start off overhead, and as time progresses, eventually appear below the top of the 3.5 foot high deck railing as it approaches the horizon. HOW IS THIS POSSIBLE?

This example above should show how silly the question is; and how the result is clearly due to perspective. You may as well be curious how you can raise your hands above the level of any clouds you see in the distance and be lost in wonder how your 5 foot tall hands can seem to get above clouds which are thousands of feet high in the distance, because this scenario would be as equally confounding, based on your understanding of the world.
you should draw a diagram with the lines from the objects to the pov, because your example makes perfect sense in a RE  (and would actually confirm the cloud observations) but wouldn't work in a FE without fudging the perspective lines.
While you are at it, draw also the diagram for the clouds.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #47 on: September 18, 2017, 11:12:46 AM »
you should draw a diagram with the lines from the objects to the pov, because your example makes perfect sense in a RE  (and would actually confirm the cloud observations) but wouldn't work in a FE without fudging the perspective lines.
While you are at it, draw also the diagram for the clouds.

My examples also work in a first person 3D video game which assumes a flat surface. In first person mode the character can rise his hand to be above the clouds or planes or other objects in the distance, but that doesn't make the character's hands above the height of those objects.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #48 on: September 18, 2017, 11:37:10 AM »
you should draw a diagram with the lines from the objects to the pov, because your example makes perfect sense in a RE  (and would actually confirm the cloud observations) but wouldn't work in a FE without fudging the perspective lines.
While you are at it, draw also the diagram for the clouds.

My examples also work in a first person 3D video game which assumes a flat surface. In first person mode the character can rise his hand to be above the clouds or planes or other objects in the distance, but that doesn't make the character's hands above the height of those objects.
You should draw a diagram for both your example and the cloud observation. 3D games routinely take shortcuts to simulate reality.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #49 on: September 18, 2017, 12:03:44 PM »
Is it really so tough imagine?


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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #50 on: September 18, 2017, 12:21:31 PM »
Is it really so tough imagine?


That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #51 on: September 18, 2017, 12:44:58 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again

How is it not?

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #52 on: September 18, 2017, 12:57:32 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #53 on: September 18, 2017, 01:06:07 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

Are you saying that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #54 on: September 18, 2017, 01:07:52 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again

How is it not?

Please include accurate distances and angles in your diagram so we can mathematically verify your results. Also, please show how you can see the top of the plane you mentioned, since we appear to be seeing the "top" of the Sun in the video.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #55 on: September 18, 2017, 01:09:32 PM »
Please include accurate distances and angles in your diagram so we can mathematically verify your results. Also, please show how you can see the top of the plane you mentioned, since we appear to be seeing the "top" of the Sun in the video.

Are you claiming that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?

If you have no disagreement with this assertion then I am not sure where your issue lies.

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #56 on: September 18, 2017, 01:13:14 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

Are you saying that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?
you are equivocating. That's why you need to draw a diagram for both your example and the cloud observation. After you've done it we can discuss the matter. I have time, no worries

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #57 on: September 18, 2017, 01:14:43 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

Are you saying that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?
you are equivocating. That's why you need to draw a diagram for both your example and the cloud observation. After you've done it we can discuss the matter. I have time, no worries

If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #58 on: September 18, 2017, 01:17:03 PM »
That is not a diagram by any stretch of the imagination. Try again
How is it not?
You need to draw all the objects, the ground, the point of view and the path of the light connecting them. That way you can ascertain the lines of view and who can see what from where. Yours is just a snapshot from the point of view.

Are you saying that it's impossible to put your hand above a light pole in the distance?
you are equivocating. That's why you need to draw a diagram for both your example and the cloud observation. After you've done it we can discuss the matter. I have time, no worries

If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.

I'm having a very hard time visualizing what you are saying. A diagram would be very helpful.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Offline Ga_x2

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Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #59 on: September 18, 2017, 01:19:54 PM »
If you don't find the scenario depicted to be impossible then I don't see the purpose of further diagrams.
because this is not a correct analogy with the OP and if you want to convince me of the contrary you'll need to draw a diagram.  Frankly I don't understand your reluctance. It's a matter of a couple of minutes, if you know what you're talking about.