StinkyOne

• 805
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #100 on: September 19, 2017, 10:20:29 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?

So you think perspective CHANGES the size/orientation of objects, is that what you mean??? What happens to the poor people on the train that are SMASHED into ever smaller cars?
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

inquisitive

• 1062
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #101 on: September 19, 2017, 10:24:52 PM »
Tom, does perspective rearrange the actual positions of real object?

It can put 3 inch tall railroad tracks at your 5'8" eye level. What do you think?
It does not, and you know it does not.

xenotolerance

• 307
• byeeeeeee
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #102 on: September 25, 2017, 03:32:22 PM »
Quote from: Tom Bishop
Although the lines seem to be parallel from one view point; perspective causes them to point towards each other from another view point, and touch at a vanishing point with enough distance, much like a railroad perspective scene.

It is also possible to draw lines which are angled slightly away from each other in a non-parallel angle and make those lines parallel by moving your camera around the scene. The concept of whether the lines are parallel or not depends on your perspective.

Quote
Wikipedia: vanishing points exist only when parallel lines are present in the scene

Quote
Also Wikipedia: Given parallel straight lines l and m in Euclidean space, the following properties are equivalent:
Every point on line m is located at exactly the same (minimum) distance from line l (equidistant lines).
Line m is in the same plane as line l but does not intersect l (recall that lines extend to infinity in either direction).
When lines m and l are both intersected by a third straight line (a transversal) in the same plane, the corresponding angles of intersection with the transversal are congruent.
Since these are equivalent properties, any one of them could be taken as the definition of parallel lines in Euclidean space, but the first and third properties involve measurement, and so, are "more complicated" than the second. Thus, the second property is the one usually chosen as the defining property of parallel lines in Euclidean geometry.[3] The other properties are then consequences of Euclid's Parallel Postulate.

If two lines approach the same vanishing point on a horizon, they are parallel. Railroad tracks are equidistant lines, therefore parallel, and a picture of them that includes a horizon will have a vanishing point. By definition, perspective makes parallel lines 'point towards each other', and yet in reality, they remain equidistant. Also consider the third property of parallel lines, that a transversal will effect congruent angles across both of the parallel lines.

It is NOT possible to draw a scene as you describe - to draw non-parallel lines and make them appear parallel through perspective - because the two lines would have to satisfy all three equivalent properties of parallel lines to actually be parallel! You would have to break out of Euclidean geometry to achieve such a scene, so good luck with that.

Sushi

• 11
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #103 on: October 06, 2017, 09:46:04 AM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?
« Last Edit: October 06, 2017, 09:54:23 AM by Sushi »

Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6724
• Flat Earth Believer
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #104 on: October 06, 2017, 10:02:18 AM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Rama Set

• 5865
• Round and round...
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #105 on: October 06, 2017, 10:17:24 AM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.

But, as everyone is aware, a tromp d'oeil does not explain the phenomenon we are talking about.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

StinkyOne

• 805
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #106 on: October 06, 2017, 12:16:25 PM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.

Tom, I took some pics and will be starting a new thread in the next couple days. Hope you'll pop in.
I saw a video where a pilot was flying above the sun.
-Terry50

Ga_x2

• 178
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #107 on: October 06, 2017, 12:29:45 PM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.
he/she said below, not from the side

Curious Squirrel

• 1338
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #108 on: October 06, 2017, 01:15:38 PM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.
IF the world was flat, no we would not. The sun would still be at a 20 degree angle of incidence, and you still have not shown how the light from the sun will shift to 'cover' that distance based only on perspective. We have a thread waiting for more information and everything, but at present you are assuming the world is already flat, so everything we see has to be able to happen. You are starting from a position you have yet to prove, so your conclusion is invalid.

3DGeek

• 1024
• Path of photon from sun location to eye at sunset?
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #109 on: October 11, 2017, 03:12:25 PM »
Ok. When we see the clouds lit from below and Tom said because of perspective, so imagine we can teleport to the sun, and we standing on the top of 3000 miles up sun, then how can we lit those clouds from below?

When it is sunset the clouds would see the sun from the side at the horizon. From the sun's perspective it would likewise see the clouds from the side, at the horizon.

Wait - so you're saying that "magic perspective" also works for things that don't focus an image?!?

Are you not aware that perspective ONLY comes about as an artifact of focussing light?

The thing is that neither the sun, nor the clouds are "at the horizon" - the horizon is only an artifact of a viewer.   From the perspective of the sun - it's 3,000 miles up - and a few thousand miles off to the side of where the cloud is.   The cloud is perhaps a few thousand feet to tens of thousands of feet up.

You can't use perspective to explain how the light gets from the sun (which is, undeniably ABOVE the cloud) down to the UNDERSIDE of the cloud.   The reason you can't use perspective is that we have independent viewers all over the surface of the planet who all have a different perspective on what's going on - but all agree that the cloud is lit from beneath.

We don't have "alternate reality" for different people.

So your explanation makes zero sense.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

DuniyaGolHai

• 61
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #110 on: October 12, 2017, 11:50:44 AM »
What abt these images???

Rama Set

• 5865
• Round and round...
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #111 on: October 12, 2017, 03:23:03 PM »
Those are exceptional circumstances that fail to explain the OP.  Specifically Mt. Rainier's shadow being cast upwards on to a cloud.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

3DGeek

• 1024
• Path of photon from sun location to eye at sunset?
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #112 on: October 12, 2017, 05:55:37 PM »
What abt these images???

Well, your first image doesn't work.  We can take photos of under-lit clouds in large deserts where there is no water to reflect the image.

Your second image is the correct one - and it demonstrates that the Earth must be round.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Rama Set

• 5865
• Round and round...
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #113 on: October 13, 2017, 01:43:00 AM »
What abt these images???

Well, your first image doesn't work.  We can take photos of under-lit clouds in large deserts where there is no water to reflect the image.

Your second image is the correct one - and it demonstrates that the Earth must be round.

Your image isn't displaying properly unfortunately.
You don't get races of anything ... accept people.

douglips

• 459
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #114 on: October 13, 2017, 03:30:59 AM »
Originally posted in its own thread but no flat earth theorists commented.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/lGZ30LhidkSFbv0A2

-----
On Wednesday, September 20, 2017, I flew on Southwest Airlines flight 1293 from SJC to DAL. It happened to be flying over Texas right at local sunset. In addition, to the northwest of Dallas was a beautiful tall thunderstorm. I was able to take pictures of the following phenomena:

- The aircraft clearly illuminated by direct sunlight after local sunset
- A tall wall of clouds illustrating direct sunlight at the top, darkness at the bottom, and twilight illumination in between
- A high layer of clouds illuminated from beneath, and the shadow of a lower cloud cast upon the higher layer

Some of the photos were taken just a few minutes before local sunset (as seen from the ground at the location directly under the aircraft) and some just a few minutes after. The last two photos were taken approximately 5 minutes after local sunset and clearly show that the aircraft is illuminated by direct sunlight.

I view these photos as supporting Round Earth Theory and would be interested in other possible interpretations.

3DGeek

• 1024
• Path of photon from sun location to eye at sunset?
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #115 on: October 13, 2017, 03:10:27 PM »
Your image isn't displaying properly unfortunately.

Ack!  Sorry.  It was a picture of clouds lit from beneath just after sunset over the Sahara desert - where there is no water to reflect the sunlight.

Google "sunset over desert" - you'll find plenty more like it.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Wisdomous

• 2
• I have been flat out convinced
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #116 on: October 25, 2017, 05:19:59 AM »
Explain how a sun 3000 miles up can cast a shadow of Mt Rainer onto a layer of clouds?? This mean the light HAS to be BELOW the level of the mountain. Try to create a shadow on your ceiling with a light shining down or even level - you can not do it without angling the light source up.

This is proof! Can we put the matter to rest?
The calculator doesn't always make 180 degree triangles.

3DGeek

• 1024
• Path of photon from sun location to eye at sunset?
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #117 on: October 25, 2017, 05:10:14 PM »
Explain how a sun 3000 miles up can cast a shadow of Mt Rainer onto a layer of clouds?? This mean the light HAS to be BELOW the level of the mountain. Try to create a shadow on your ceiling with a light shining down or even level - you can not do it without angling the light source up.

This is proof! Can we put the matter to rest?

Wow!  That is an amazingly cool photo!

Yeah - so it *SHOULD* put the matter to rest - the Earth is hereby proven to be Round...but somehow I doubt that Tom will stop trying to talk about "perspective".

The problem he has is that perspective is an artifact of eyes, cameras, telescopes and such - it's not anything that affects the paths that the photons take.   They simply travel in straight lines.

Tom's confusion vanishes if you simply talk about the paths taken by the photons - which is why he continues to refuse to talk about that.
Hey Tom:  What path do the photons take from the physical location of the sun to my eye at sunset?

Obfuscate

• 1
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #118 on: December 14, 2017, 10:35:07 PM »
Pretty sure NASA have a mirror on the outer edge of the Earth to reflect rays up and under clouds.

Tom Bishop

• Zetetic Council Member
• 6724
• Flat Earth Believer
Re: Disproof: Clouds lit from below at sunset.
« Reply #119 on: December 14, 2017, 11:31:05 PM »
Explain how a sun 3000 miles up can cast a shadow of Mt Rainer onto a layer of clouds?? This mean the light HAS to be BELOW the level of the mountain. Try to create a shadow on your ceiling with a light shining down or even level - you can not do it without angling the light source up.

This is proof! Can we put the matter to rest?

As we have discussed in this thread, the sunset creates a band of darkness which originates from the horizon. If the sun is at the horizon at sea level in that picture, it is looking up at the mountain in the foreground, and therefore a shadow is created.

As per the argument of how the sun can be lower than the mountain in order to look up at it, this was discussed earlier in this thread. If we have a series of lamp posts stretching into the horizon, it is possible and raise your hand to be above a small lamp post on the horizon in the distance. The distant lamp post is now looking up at your hand.

The distant lamp post has the opposite perspective. It sees you at the horizon and it sees your hand slightly above the horizon, and therefore its photons are angled upwards at it.