[Jura-Glenlivet]

He's not.. If you do worship Him this life, then you will attain an eternal life in heaven.. rather than hell. He created us to see who's the best in deeds. And the best ones have the chance to be there... I know it sounds like a fairy tale due to the society we were born in and this age...

So having the zombified corpse of a murdered man who claimed he was the son of a sky angel, tell us we can remove a sin (that was planted by a woman made from a rib,  after eating a magic apple because an evil snake told her too, before we were born), by getting on our knees and telepathically communicating our acceptance of him, whilst symbolically consuming his flesh and blood, then we can go to his place forever as long as we continue to tell him he is great.
If we think this is a tad megalomaniacal, or even unbelievable, and therefore we don’t tell him he is great, he will roast and torture us forever, but he loves us.

Fairytale? And you tell this to your kids? 

[Poseidon]

He's not.. If you do worship Him this life, then you will attain an eternal life in heaven.. rather than hell. He created us to see who's the best in deeds. And the best ones have the chance to be there... I know it sounds like a fairy tale due to the society we were born in and this age...

So having the zombified corpse of a murdered man who claimed he was the son of a sky angel,

First off, anybody who doesn't know the difference between the Creator and part of the Creation (Angels) is clearly not very bright. 2nd, Resurrection v. Zombification are radically different things. Not knowing the difference ALSO implies a lack of brains.

tell us we can remove a sin (that was planted by a woman made from a rib,  after eating a magic apple because an evil snake told her too, before we were born), by getting on our knees and telepathically communicating our acceptance of him, whilst symbolically consuming his flesh and blood, then we can go to his place forever as long as we continue to tell him he is great.

The Bible never specifies what the fruit was. Your assumption that it was an apple is, again, an ASSumption. The snake itself was representative of the Devil. Your lack of ability to note this simple fact further casts doubt on your intellect.

If we think this is a tad megalomaniacal, or even unbelievable, and therefore we don’t tell him he is great, he will roast and torture us forever, but he loves us.

Fairytale? And you tell this to your kids?

The fact that someone with your poor level of brains is even allowed to post here speaks VOLUMES for the immense tolerance of this site for third graders. My wife's students could do a better job, and many of them are Special Ed.

My objection is not your lack of belief. In fact, I am totally fine with that. I have known plenty of intelligent (and even a few brilliant) atheists. But you are clearly not one of them. Before opening your pie-hole again, it might serve you well to know what you are talking about. It is one thing to be THOUGHT to be a fool. It is quite another to open one's yap, and by doing so, remove all possible doubt on the matter.

[TheTruthIsOnHere]

He's not.. If you do worship Him this life, then you will attain an eternal life in heaven.. rather than hell. He created us to see who's the best in deeds. And the best ones have the chance to be there... I know it sounds like a fairy tale due to the society we were born in and this age...

So having the zombified corpse of a murdered man who claimed he was the son of a sky angel,

First off, anybody who doesn't know the difference between the Creator and part of the Creation (Angels) is clearly not very bright. 2nd, Resurrection v. Zombification are radically different things. Not knowing the difference ALSO implies a lack of brains.

tell us we can remove a sin (that was planted by a woman made from a rib,  after eating a magic apple because an evil snake told her too, before we were born), by getting on our knees and telepathically communicating our acceptance of him, whilst symbolically consuming his flesh and blood, then we can go to his place forever as long as we continue to tell him he is great.

The Bible never specifies what the fruit was. Your assumption that it was an apple is, again, an ASSumption. The snake itself was representative of the Devil. Your lack of ability to note this simple fact further casts doubt on your intellect.

If we think this is a tad megalomaniacal, or even unbelievable, and therefore we don’t tell him he is great, he will roast and torture us forever, but he loves us.

Fairytale? And you tell this to your kids?

The fact that someone with your poor level of brains is even allowed to post here speaks VOLUMES for the immense tolerance of this site for third graders. My wife's students could do a better job, and many of them are Special Ed.

My objection is not your lack of belief. In fact, I am totally fine with that. I have known plenty of intelligent (and even a few brilliant) atheists. But you are clearly not one of them. Before opening your pie-hole again, it might serve you well to know what you are talking about. It is one thing to be THOUGHT to be a fool. It is quite another to open one's yap, and by doing so, remove all possible doubt on the matter.

Hey this isn't exactly turning the other cheek here lol... Ofcourse (s)he said some things that would obviously be inflammatory to someone who considered priesthood at some point in his life, but you're not really showing her the shining example a Christian should/would.

And as for andruszkow, the purpose certainly isn't knowable, even though many people from many walks of life and religions will tell you they do know. I can only tell you what my inclination and what helps me to make sense of what I've gleaned.

To me, what the bible and other holy texts reaffirm is that the Creator's is infinite merciful... meaning "He" won't, or possibly can't (because each soul or spirit is a part of "Himself") destroy you for being a dick. 

I'm inclined to believe in reincarnation in some form, and life as we know it being a sort of filtering/refining process. I am inclined to believe that  physical, finite manifestation is uniquely suited to perform this task.

Why the original discord? That's anyone's guess. The "fall" of man has been speculated on since we first postulated that this existence wasn't the only existence, or the highest form of existence.

[Poseidon]

Hey this isn't exactly turning the other cheek here lol... Ofcourse (s)he said some things that would obviously be inflammatory to someone who considered priesthood at some point in his life, but you're not really showing her the shining example a Christian should/would.

And as for andruszkow, the purpose certainly isn't knowable, even though many people from many walks of life and religions will tell you they do know. I can only tell you what my inclination and what helps me to make sense of what I've gleaned.

To me, what the bible and other holy texts reaffirm is that the Creator's is infinite merciful... meaning "He" won't, or possibly can't (because each soul or spirit is a part of "Himself") destroy you for being a dick. 

I'm inclined to believe in reincarnation in some form, and life as we know it being a sort of filtering/refining process. I am inclined to believe that  physical, finite manifestation is uniquely suited to perform this task.

Why the original discord? That's anyone's guess. The "fall" of man has been speculated on since we first postulated that this existence wasn't the only existence, or the highest form of existence.

Well, I have NEVER suffered a fool gladly. As far as Hell goes, I do believe in it. I also tend to believe it's for the worst of the worst. I know that LCMS Lutheran practice is that one MUST be a Christian to merit the Kingdom. My own answer, and one I have heard from many clergy, is that we simply don't know, and its best to be kind to all, while at the same time doing our best to teach the Word of God.

On a purely personal level, I have studied virtually EVERY religion of significance in the world today, from Roman Catholicism to Anglicanism, to Judaism, to Islam, to both theistic and non-theistic Buddhism, to monotheistic Hinduism, to Mormonism, to Shintoism. And of course Lutheranism. The ONLY one I really have serious issues with is Islam, simply because of their tendency to enjoy blowing crap up.

So, ultimately, although I would LIKE it if the world were Christian (and better yet, Lutheran), and although I will work toward that, I see no need to be nasty to others about it. But, get nasty with me, and yes, I shall gladly chew you apart and enjoy every minute of it.

[TheTruthIsOnHere]

So, ultimately, although I would LIKE it if the world were Christian (and better yet, Lutheran), and although I will work toward that, I see no need to be nasty to others about it. But, get nasty with me, and yes, I shall gladly chew you apart and enjoy every minute of it.

Do you really think it's appropriate to have a one size fits all homogenized religion? Like you said, most of them boil down to don't be a d'bag... I was always troubled by the proposition that only people who lived in the brief period of history that could have heard about Christ have a chance at being in Heaven. Especially when you're talking about an omnipresent and omnipotent God that obviously isn't bound by time it makes no sense to open Heaven to people that lived from X-Z years on Earth. The judgement day being a literal day in the future also falls apart in light of that.

Where does God exist, to you?

[Poseidon]

So, ultimately, although I would LIKE it if the world were Christian (and better yet, Lutheran), and although I will work toward that, I see no need to be nasty to others about it. But, get nasty with me, and yes, I shall gladly chew you apart and enjoy every minute of it.

Do you really think it's appropriate to have a one size fits all homogenized religion? Like you said, most of them boil down to don't be a d'bag... I was always troubled by the proposition that only people who lived in the brief period of history that could have heard about Christ have a chance at being in Heaven. Especially when you're talking about an omnipresent and omnipotent God that obviously isn't bound by time it makes no sense to open Heaven to people that lived from X-Z years on Earth. The judgement day being a literal day in the future also falls apart in light of that.

Where does God exist, to you?

God exists outside of time and space. As for who can be saved and who cannot be, there is clearly something to be said for the Baptism of Desire. This is a concept such that a person who has never had the opportunity to hear of Christ, but would have respnded positively if he had, has every opportunity  to attain the Kingdom, through Christ's mercy. Now this is no works based salvation, lest any man should boast, but rather is a mercy offered to sinful and flawed man by an ever gentle Christ.   

[Jura-Glenlivet]

Well that certainly touched a nerve Posi', apart from my obvious lack of grey matter that you so christianly pointed out I cite a laissez faire Church of England up bringing for my gaps in knowledge (no doubt you'll be telling me next that Easter isn't about the baby Jesus laying an egg for the chocolate bunny), but all that aside, bottom line is I get eternity in torment for not believing your myths, you are welcome to your hell and your  tyrannical  deity, you deserve each other.

[Poseidon]

Well that certainly touched a nerve Posi', apart from my obvious lack of grey matter that you so christianly pointed out I cite a laissez faire Church of England up bringing for my gaps in knowledge (no doubt you'll be telling me next that Easter isn't about the baby Jesus laying an egg for the chocolate bunny), but all that aside, bottom line is I get eternity in torment for not believing your myths, you are welcome to your hell and your  tyrannical  deity, you deserve each other.

Well, I was raised part Roman and part Anglican myself. Since the C of E produced the Authorised Version (also called the King James Version) of the Bible, and since that text is easy to get and read for yourself, you really can only blame the Church so far. Like I said, I do not presume to know your final destination in the eternal realms. And no, you did not hit a nerve, beyond the one that just doesn't tolerate fools well. You are entitled to believe what you like. But at least know what you do NOT believe if you are going to criticise it. If you had made valid criticisms of Christian beliefs, or simply accurately stated those beliefs and then indicated your lack of acceptance of same, I would have been fine with that. But instead you made yourself look stupid. Not wise.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

You’re kind of missing the point here Posi, so despite your original hostility I will explain a bit.

 All the “was it an apple or a pomegranate” zombie or resurrection, snake or the devil? I don’t care, it was a pastiche, to show in some measure the ridiculousness of the message pedalled, and I’m not blaming the reverend Ireland for the rubbish job he did or even my tardiness as a student, the message itself is flawed.

These are prehistoric legends, your particular one born amongst warring desert tribes, thousands of years, of gibberish, attempting to explain a world they didn’t understand, grown in ignorance, passed down and distorted to fit the prejudices and social pressures they were filtered through. We don’t need them, if it wasn’t for the horror story element of what happens to those who don’t conform (Hell), and the wishful thinkers who want to carry on living and/or meet their loved ones again after death (Heaven), they would have faded away beneath the surgical gaze of science long ago.

Hopefully this will still happen, even in America probably the most backward of modern countries, atheism is on the rise, forward with the enlightenment.

[Poseidon]

You’re kind of missing the point here Posi, so despite your original hostility I will explain a bit.

 All the “was it an apple or a pomegranate” zombie or resurrection, snake or the devil? I don’t care, it was a pastiche, to show in some measure the ridiculousness of the message pedalled, and I’m not blaming the reverend Ireland for the rubbish job he did or even my tardiness as a student, the message itself is flawed.

And now I get to be subjected to the same, tired argument,, no more true today than it ever was, of the "prehistoric legend" crap.

These are prehistoric legends, your particular one born amongst warring desert tribes, thousands of years, of gibberish, attempting to explain a world they didn’t understand, grown in ignorance, passed down and distorted to fit the prejudices and social pressures they were filtered through. We don’t need them, if it wasn’t for the horror story element of what happens to those who don’t conform (Hell), and the wishful thinkers who want to carry on living and/or meet their loved ones again after death (Heaven), they would have faded away beneath the surgical gaze of science long ago.

Hopefully this will still happen, even in America probably the most backward of modern countries, atheism is on the rise, forward with the enlightenment.

For America being so backward, you should all be thanking us, as without us you all in Europe would be speaking German by now. And no, Atheism is no more on the rise here than it is elsewhere (except in the cesspool that is modern day Western Europe, where they have been STUPID enough to allow open immigration). Obozo the Muslim traitor did as well, but now, with a real President in office, hopefully that will end.

As to the question of the "prehistoric legends", the question of human origins is not really an issue to worry about much. The question is the origin of everything, and anyone who claims that "$h!t just got here on its own" is basically admitting how dim they are. Sorry, but any common person knows that stuff doesn't just HAPPEN. It requires an outside force to make it happen. A thing at rest does not start moving of its own accord. And things don't self-create, either. I DO understand that you are not that bright, but do TRY to come up with better arguments than that!

[TheTruthIsOnHere]

Atheism will never be more viable that agnosticism. You can't prove the non-existence of Creator. Especially if you want to try to use Science to explain how we became man from a single cell (you cannot).

The best you can do is admit that you just don't know. The science doesn't support atheism enough for it to be mainstream. Until you can use the scientific method to accurately explain our existence then science can never replace God. Until then, there are too many logical leaps that we have to take to truly believe we are just a cosmic accident.

By the way, I don't want to drag this into the never ending shit show of the Creation/Evolution thread from last year. My only point here is that the only logical step after Creationism is Agnosticism.

[Poseidon]

THETRUTHISONHERE, I am inclined to agree with you. Now, on a purely PERSONAL level, I do believe the State should be separate from the Church. And to me, that would mean the Church WOULD be subject to taxation (and By "Church" I refer to ANY religious group). I also think that private schools run by Churches up through the 12th Grade should be forbidden, and all young people should be educated in State Schools. If they want religious education, go to Sunday School. As far as universities go, that is a different matter, of course.

I think the Gregorian Calendar should ALSO be eliminated in favour of a secular one, that would satisfy the needs of the State. The French Republican Calendar seems best for this. If someone needed a religious day off from work, that should be allowed as long as it does not impact overall workload.

I again, am quite a religious man, although not to the point that I once was. But I think, especially in America, with its multiplicity of religions, no one religion should be given preference over another. And Islam should be forbidden outright as a direct threat to the State.

ALL religions should be obligated to register with the State, in order to guarantee that they are obeying the tax laws, and the like, and not harming their followers. By harm, I refer to physical or emotional abuse.

I realise these views would make me unpopular with many Americans, but it's just how I feel about things.

[Roundy]

And things don't self-create, either. I DO understand that you are not that bright, but do TRY to come up with better arguments than that!

What created God?

[Poseidon]

And things don't self-create, either. I DO understand that you are not that bright, but do TRY to come up with better arguments than that!

What created God?

ROUNDY, come on, you can do better than that! Even Plato spoke of the Uncaused Cause, the Unmoved Mover. Ultimately, you come back to something that has ALWAYS itself existed. Now scientists themselves know that the Universe itself had a beginning. So beyond that you have to posit Something Else.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

You are getting all angry again Posi.

A few points, TTIOH is right about the arguments we had before they are fun but largely end in insults and anger (see above). Science doesn't  support Atheism, what it does/has done over the years is explain the stuff religions were there to do in the first place, the sun isn't carried across the world in a chariot and shoved through the underworld at night by a beetle (or was that the moon? Small matter), astronomy taking over from astrology etc. gradually it has eroded the need for myths with facts.

On your grasp of history. I take it you mean the second world war, no disrespect to the Americans who died in Europe, I have been to the American cemetery overlooking Omaha beach and a lot of brave men died there, but you didn't win the war, on balance it was the Russians with far greater loses and hardship (than both our nations combined) who bled the Nazi's war machine dry.

On loss of religion the USA is in the top 10 for notable decline, in at number 8  with a drop of 13% since 2005.

On cesspool Europe? I have traveled it extensively and it's a vibrant open wonderful place, try something other than Fox news.

As for “And things don't self-create, either. “, what Roundy said.

[Poseidon]

You are getting all angry again Posi.

A few points, TTIOH is right about the arguments we had before they are fun but largely end in insults and anger (see above). Science doesn't  support Atheism, what it does/has done over the years is explain the stuff religions were there to do in the first place, the sun isn't carried across the world in a chariot and shoved through the underworld at night by a beetle (or was that the moon? Small matter), astronomy taking over from astrology etc. gradually it has eroded the need for myths with facts.

On your grasp of history. I take it you mean the second world war, no disrespect to the Americans who died in Europe, I have been to the American cemetery overlooking Omaha beach and a lot of brave men died there, but you didn't win the war, on balance it was the Russians with far greater loses and hardship (than both our nations combined) who bled the Nazi's war machine dry.

I don't dispute the Soviet role in WWII, but they still could not have done it without us, nor us without them.

On loss of religion the USA is in the top 10 for notable decline, in at number 8  with a drop of 13% since 2005.

And interestingly enough, you will find that it is the liberal mainline Churches that are losing membership. The conservative ones are growing.

On cesspool Europe? I have traveled it extensively and it's a vibrant open wonderful place, try something other than Fox news.

That so-called vibrant place is infested with Muslims, such that there are whole parts of cities where even the police do not go. Even our somewhat left of center CNN admits that. Sweden is now 11% Muslim, and is basically in the process of committing national-cultural suicide. But, right wing movements are on the rise, which I see as a good thing, as long as they can be controlled.

Of course, the Leftist sacks of $h!t will do what they can to prevent that. Like mischaracterising Marine le Pen when she says that the French Government had nothing to do with the round-up of Jews. What she meant, and she stated this, was that the Republic was in England, and the Vichy Government was NOT the legitimate government of France. But try to get the Left to admit that!

As for “And things don't self-create, either. “, what Roundy said.

Already answered.

And like I said, I am not angry. I just don't tolerate a fool well. And that is what you appear to be.

[andruszkow]

You are getting all angry again Posi.

A few points, TTIOH is right about the arguments we had before they are fun but largely end in insults and anger (see above). Science doesn't  support Atheism, what it does/has done over the years is explain the stuff religions were there to do in the first place, the sun isn't carried across the world in a chariot and shoved through the underworld at night by a beetle (or was that the moon? Small matter), astronomy taking over from astrology etc. gradually it has eroded the need for myths with facts.

On your grasp of history. I take it you mean the second world war, no disrespect to the Americans who died in Europe, I have been to the American cemetery overlooking Omaha beach and a lot of brave men died there, but you didn't win the war, on balance it was the Russians with far greater loses and hardship (than both our nations combined) who bled the Nazi's war machine dry.

I don't dispute the Soviet role in WWII, but they still could not have done it without us, nor us without them.

On loss of religion the USA is in the top 10 for notable decline, in at number 8  with a drop of 13% since 2005.

And interestingly enough, you will find that it is the liberal mainline Churches that are losing membership. The conservative ones are growing.

On cesspool Europe? I have traveled it extensively and it's a vibrant open wonderful place, try something other than Fox news.

That so-called vibrant place is infested with Muslims, such that there are whole parts of cities where even the police do not go. Even our somewhat left of center CNN admits that. Sweden is now 11% Muslim, and is basically in the process of committing national-cultural suicide. But, right wing movements are on the rise, which I see as a good thing, as long as they can be controlled.

Of course, the Leftist sacks of $h!t will do what they can to prevent that. Like mischaracterising Marine le Pen when she says that the French Government had nothing to do with the round-up of Jews. What she meant, and she stated this, was that the Republic was in England, and the Vichy Government was NOT the legitimate government of France. But try to get the Left to admit that!

As for “And things don't self-create, either. “, what Roundy said.

Already answered.

And like I said, I am not angry. I just don't tolerate a fool well. And that is what you appear to be.

Your wording suggests that Muslims are the main issue. If I had to go your route, as I see it, Europe is infested with religion. Not just Islam. However, apart from Islam growing (because of fugitives and lousy integration efforts), the nations of Europe are fairly secular in general.

Your comment about Sweden just doesn't fly. This is a typical remark from people subscribing to facts based on news only (in particular in America). I'm from Scandinavia myself. Swedens population might consist of a 11% Muslim minority. This doesn't make sweden 11% Muslim.

But let's play that game though. How are crime rates in America, across the board, compared to highly secular countries like Iceland, Sweden, Denmark and Norway for instance?

[andruszkow]

In fact, never mind about that. I really don't care about your views on that, you can rely on Fox news as much as you want and stay ignorant. It doesn't really change anything regarding religion and flat earth.

[Jura-Glenlivet]

He's not even bothered to check his facts on that, just gone into the same old right wing frenzy, according to the Swedes, Muslims account for 1.5% (http://www.government.se/articles/2017/02/facts-about-migration-and-crime-in-sweden/), but hey! What do they know.
I think the phrase "conservative" in respect to those American churches is a bit of a misnomer, raving end-of-times, poorly educated bampots isn't part of my dictionaries definition of the word, but then again I'm not that smart.

[Poseidon]

Well, I won't deny, some of the churches in question make me quite uncomfortable as well. I am merely pointing out that the loss in religiosity in this country is predominantly from the liberal wing.

The fact that the Bishop in charge of the Seaman's Church in Sweden actually recommended that crosses be removed from it and other churches, and that Muslim prayer rooms be opened in them in order to accommodate your Muslim guests should be an indicator that all is NOT well in the Kingdom. Granted, the suggestion was not acted upon, but the fact that someone was retarded enough to MAKE it...

The fact that the Government only lists a 1.5% of Muslims simply indicates under-reporting. Having read the data myself, it simply states that a person is counted as a religious Muslim if they say they are. If they neglect to answer the question... I have Swedish friends myself. And no, I don't actually watch ANY TV, let alone Fox News. I consider the television to be a bane of our society, and so only really own one for my wife's sake. I read my news and get it on the radio.

The reason crime rates are higher here is simple. We have 326 million people to control. There are nowhere near that many in Sweden, or Finland, or England, or what-have-you. Stupid question.

Notice, even the website admits there are places where the police struggle to do their duty. A government will rarely admit the full truth of a situation like that. So, ask yourself, how much worse is it than they are letting on?