Offline Flatout

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Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« on: March 21, 2017, 01:37:50 AM »
I've been watching Venus and Mars nightly for nearly a year when the weather allows. It's been very neat to watch the phases of Venus change.  I've also been comparing their angular diameter changes.   I've watch Venus grow almost 6 times in size.   Mars has shrunk about 5.5 times since this time 1 year ago.   What is TFES explanation for this size change?   I couldn't find anything in the Wiki.  The principles of perspective would suggest a significant change in distance (6 times the distance)  from the earth.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #1 on: March 22, 2017, 03:27:56 AM »
So am I to take the lack of  response to mean that TFES has no explanation for the changing angular diameter of Venus and Mars?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2017, 05:19:04 PM »
What about this event can only happen if the earth were a globe?

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2017, 05:39:02 PM »
What about this event can only happen if the earth were a globe?

Take a look at this link and see the position of the planets.  Venus is close and at the largest that I've observed over the last year.  Mars is opposite us in the orbit and has been getting smaller for about 8 months by my observations.

http://www.theplanetstoday.com

I've been trying to figure out what the flat earth explanation could  be.  The planets would have to orbit above the earth daily, change their orbital speed at times to explain for the retrograde motion compared to the stars,  and increase their height by 5 or 6 times through out their individual cycles.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2017, 05:43:51 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2017, 05:56:31 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.
The observed angular diameter change fits with the heliocentric model.  What is the flat earth explanation?

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2017, 06:05:15 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.
Obviously the diagram in that explanation doesn't work.  The orbit of the planet around the sun would have to be much larger for it to  be out of the spot light and observable at night.  What is the orbital distance between the Sun and Venus in your model?   What is its orbital period?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2017, 06:06:41 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.
The observed angular diameter change fits with the heliocentric model.  What is the flat earth explanation?

The explanation is that the observed angular change fits with the flat earth model.

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2017, 06:10:28 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.
The observed angular diameter change fits with the heliocentric model.  What is the flat earth explanation?

The explanation is that the observed angular change fits with the flat earth model.
How does an observed angular diameter change of 5x fit with model?  Please explain.
If you can tell me orbital period and orbital diameter of Venus around the sun, I'll plot it out and see if it fits.  Maybe you've already done this since you say it works.

Secondly, you must not ascribe to the firmament model.  For Venus to have a large enough orbit to be out of the light of the sun its orbit would have to go outside of the dome.....or the dome would have to be quite a bit larger than the flat earth map.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2017, 06:31:39 PM by Flatout »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2017, 06:13:03 PM »
How does an observed angular diameter change of 5x fit with model?  Please explain.

The angular change happened, and the earth was still flat underneath it. I don't see any sort of explanation for why it could only happen on a globe earth and none other.

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If you can tell me orbital period and orbital diameter of Venus around the sun, I'll plot it out and see if it fits.  Maybe you've already done this since you say it works.

Why should we care enough to know that if it's not going to tell us whether the earth is a globe or not? Do we have to know what the temperature of uranus is too?

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2017, 06:39:06 PM »
Tom, I would say that if your model cannot account for some basic observations that a person can make from their back yard with a telescope,  then the model maybe suspect.  Secondly, If there is an unwillingness to account for the observation then the driving force behind a your model may not be derived from observation.   

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2017, 11:14:00 PM »
Tom, I would say that if your model cannot account for some basic observations that a person can make from their back yard with a telescope,  then the model maybe suspect.

Account for what? You have not told us why it can't happen on a Flat Earth.

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Secondly, If there is an unwillingness to account for the observation then the driving force behind a your model may not be derived from observation.   

You have not provided any explanation for why this can't happen on an earth that is not round. Why should we bother coming up with a figure for this particular property of Venus anymore than the temperature of Uranus?

Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #12 on: March 24, 2017, 12:21:18 AM »
Tom, I would say that if your model cannot account for some basic observations that a person can make from their back yard with a telescope,  then the model maybe suspect.

Account for what? You have not told us why it can't happen on a Flat Earth.

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Secondly, If there is an unwillingness to account for the observation then the driving force behind a your model may not be derived from observation.   

You have not provided any explanation for why this can't happen on an earth that is not round. Why should we bother coming up with a figure for this particular property of Venus anymore than the temperature of Uranus?
I'm not saying it isn't possible.  I'm asking for  an explanation.  I can't find one.  You have stated that it is possible but have given no explanation.  I find that my observations fit within the heliocentric model.   You say they fit with flat earth model.  I'm asking how?  The name of this forum is Flat Earth Q & A.   You state that the heliocentric model is false.         What is an alternative model that fits with the observations being discussed? 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #13 on: March 24, 2017, 01:52:23 AM »
I find that my observations fit within the heliocentric model.   You say they fit with flat earth model.  I'm asking how?

As I explained, the angular change happened, and the earth was still flat underneath it.

Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #14 on: March 24, 2017, 03:02:39 AM »
I find that my observations fit within the heliocentric model.   You say they fit with flat earth model.  I'm asking how?

As I explained, the angular change happened, and the earth was still flat underneath it.

So, you don't know why it happens?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #15 on: March 24, 2017, 03:18:20 AM »
So, you don't know why it happens?

Why should it matter any more than should the temperature of Uranus matter?

This is not really a topic of discussion. If you can show that this is some kind of round earth proof, we would look into it. When we are asked what puts the sun into motion, for example, the standard reply is that the mechanism is presently unknown to us, but the motion is apparent. We base knowledge on empiricism here, not wild theories.

Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #16 on: March 24, 2017, 07:22:13 AM »


So, you don't know why it happens?

Why should it matter any more than should the temperature of Uranus matter?

This is not really a topic of discussion. If you can show that this is some kind of round earth proof, we would look into it. When we are asked what puts the sun into motion, for example, the standard reply is that the mechanism is presently unknown to us, but the motion is apparent. We base knowledge on empiricism here, not wild theories.

Ok, so Tom, let's change the narrative a bit.

Say a person out of genuine curiosity asks you a question about an observation, for instance an observed change of angular size of a celestial object, right? Can you just answer what causes this instead of saying "that's not important". Obviously, it's important to this person and he or she is asking what he believes to be an authority on the subject, namely the people who are supposed to be able to answer this.

Forget about hostility, this is a genuine question. I mean, if you don't know simply just say "I/we don't know". There's nothing wrong with that. But you can't say "I fail to see why this is important". An observation has been made and someone is asking for an explanation from the very people who are supposed to be able to answer.

Let's even assume flatout were undecided on the shape of the earth or the model that describes our solar system. He now knows how one model explains that particular phenomenon, he's seeking an explanation in regards to another model.

I'd like to know this too to be honest.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #17 on: March 24, 2017, 07:02:03 PM »
If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the earth's shape, then I don't see the purpose of continuing. It is a waste of time to try and figure out the why this and why that for every countless thing that happens in the universe.

Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #18 on: March 24, 2017, 07:27:22 PM »
If you don't have anything relevant to the topic of the earth's shape, then I don't see the purpose of continuing. It is a waste of time to try and figure out the why this and why that for every countless thing that happens in the universe.
But the topic is about the change in angular size of Venus and Mars, can we agree on this much?
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Offline Flatout

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Re: Angular Diameter change of Venus and Mars
« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2017, 11:31:01 PM »
Retrograde motion of the planets is described here.

I still don't see what the angular size change of a body above us has to do with the shape of the earth.
The observed angular diameter change fits with the heliocentric model.  What is the flat earth explanation?

The explanation is that the observed angular change fits with the flat earth model.
Tom, you stated that the observations fit with the flat earth model.   Someone must have then done some modeling to determine if it could be said that "the angular change fits with the flat earth model".  I'm just curious about the model.