Offline geckothegeek

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I keep asking.:
What does the horizon look like on a flat earth ?
Where is the horizon on a flat earth ?
How can you estimate the distance to the horizon on a flat earth ?
The answers are simple on a round earth.

Will keep trying until I get answer.

The round earth answer is best seen on the round earth on a normal clear day , at sea ,  on a ship , or on the shore, looking out to sea.
The horizon is a distinct line where the sea and sky appear to meet.
The distance to the horizon may be determined by the height of the observer above the sea or land.
The higher the observer is, the farther they can see to the horizon.
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !



You completely missed the point with your illustration

Sorry, I accidentally replicated the latter image. I fixed it

You're still not addressing the increased line of sight you still achieve with increased altitude on the flat earth.

Also you're neglecting the fact that when looking towards the horizon the ground appears to come up and meet the sky. Trying to illustrate how light is actually perceived by the human eye with 2 dimensional stick figures is not at all an appropriate reflection of reality.

There is no increased line of sight in the flat earth, it impossible without the curvature of the earth, and the stick figures are just an example. I'm doing these exercises that don't need long hours of math and calculations so that you yourselves can do these at home. All these are impossible without a round earth and yet we see echoes of the results every day. In fact, the Burden of Proof is on TFES to showcase evidence disproving decades of scientific research that can't just be explained away as a "conspiracy". Tell me, how much does NASA have to gain from releasing fake photos to "lie" to us that the earth is round when the average American spends more money on pizza every year than their yearly budget (27 billion dollars worth of pizza). NASA's FY 2011 budget of $18.4 billion represented about 0.5% of the $3.4 trillion United States federal budget during that year, or about 35% of total spending on academic scientific research in the United States. These numbers are minuscule.

You say there is no increased line of sight on a flat earth... when I literally used your own illustration to show you that there is. That brown line is the line of sight. You can technically see objects that are further away than you could from the ground.

You didn't offer any mathematical or scientific accompaniment with your illustrations because you don't have any. You show us MS Paint sketches without any evidence that you have even a rudimentary knowledge how light or optics work.

1. The brown lines are exactly the same length.

2. When you are standing on the ground, you are in air at roughly one atmosphere of pressure; so are the points on the earth that you see on the horizon; and so is the whole path of the light from the horizon to you. In this case there is no significant boundary where the refractive index (RI) changes, nor is there an appreciable deviation in RI over the path of the light you are seeing. Therefore there will be no bending of the light rays, and no effect on the perceived curvature of the horizon. That's why the world seems flat at a glance.
When you are at significant altitude, you are in air at significantly lower pressure than the air at the surface of the earth. Therefore the light from the horizon moves through a region with a pronounced gradient in RI. This causes the light rays to curve, making the radius of the horizon appear larger (and thus the curvature smaller) than it otherwise would. The Earth curves at the rate of 157mrad per km travelled. The refractive index of dry air at sea level is 1.00029, but at a height of 1km, the air pressure is 12% less and (neglecting temperature density and humidity), the refractive index would be 1 + 0.00029 * 88%. The difference, 0.000035 means that light at 1km altitude travels 35mm further for every km, curving the path of light by 35mrad per km travelled, about 20% of the Earth's curvature.. allowing us to see past the theoretical horizon a bit .. an extra 20% distance at an altitude of 10km. On a flat earth this would be impossible, as light would not curve and you would see the same distance no matter where you were.





"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death" -(Miyamoto Musashi)

Offline geckothegeek

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Let's make it simple.
On a flat earth :
Where is the horizon, or by the definition, where does the sky appear to meet the earth or sea on a flat earth ?
How far can you see to the horizon as defined above on a flat earth ?
How can you estimate the distance to the horizon on a flat earth ?
Just post the answer . A direct quote from the wiki would be sufficient.
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 03:29:54 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Let's make it simple.
On a flat earth :
Where is the horizon, or by the definition, where does the sky appear to meet the earth or sea on a flat earth ?
How far can you see to the horizon as defined above on a flat earth ?
How can you estimate the distance to the horizon on a flat earth ?
Just post the answer . A direct quote from the wiki would be sufficient.

Is this directed at me or TheTruthIsOnHere?
« Last Edit: March 02, 2017, 03:24:14 PM by Maverick »
"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death" -(Miyamoto Musashi)

Offline geckothegeek

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Let's make it simple.
On a flat earth :
Where is the horizon, or by the definition, where does the sky appear to meet the earth or sea on a flat earth ?
How far can you see to the horizon as defined above on a flat earth ?
How can you estimate the distance to the horizon on a flat earth ?
Just post the answer . A direct quote from the wiki would be sufficient.

Is this directed at me or TheTruthIsOnHere?

Whoever wants to take a stab at it ! LOL.
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Quote from: geckothegeek link=topic=5862.msg112524#msg112524 date=1488425255
Whoever wants to take a stab at it ! LOL.
[/quote

Ok, I'll bite...
Take this picture for example:



You can see that the water stretches all the way out to the horizon. If the Earth were flat, and the water's surface was flat as well, shouldn't you be able to see the land on the other side? In fact, why is there even a horizon at all if the Earth is flat? Flat Earth theory can't explain it, but round Earth theory can. A horizon is caused by the curvature of the Earth. The reason that you can't see the shoreline in the picture is because it is being blocked by the water, due to the curvature of the Earth. Now to those who insist that the surface of the water is flat, you probably believe that the Bedford Level Expiriment is fake. This is a lie. Before I go into detail about how they lied, I will first explain the experiment. The experiment's purpose was to determine if the surface of the water was curved or flat. Three buoys with long vertical sticks attached to them were placed in a river with negligible water flow velocity and were separated by 5 miles. A telescope was set up perpendicular to the river a mile away from the center post. If the water, and consequently the Earth, was flat, the posts should all appear to be the same height. However, the telescope showed that the center post was five feet higher than the other two posts, thus proving that the water's surface was in fact curved, and giving strong evidence of a round Earth. However, the FES makes a bald-faced lie and says that the experiment was faked and that the poles were actually at the same height. They give no evidence that the experiment was faked, and they give no evidence that a court determined that it was faked. In fact, on their Bedford Level Experiment page (http://wiki.tfes.org/Bedford_Level_Experiment) there are no outside links at all, putting the page's credibility in question, especially since other reports by reliable sources conflict with it.
"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death" -(Miyamoto Musashi)



You completely missed the point with your illustration

Sorry, I accidentally replicated the latter image. I fixed it

You're still not addressing the increased line of sight you still achieve with increased altitude on the flat earth.

Also you're neglecting the fact that when looking towards the horizon the ground appears to come up and meet the sky. Trying to illustrate how light is actually perceived by the human eye with 2 dimensional stick figures is not at all an appropriate reflection of reality.

There is no increased line of sight in the flat earth, it impossible without the curvature of the earth, and the stick figures are just an example. I'm doing these exercises that don't need long hours of math and calculations so that you yourselves can do these at home. All these are impossible without a round earth and yet we see echoes of the results every day. In fact, the Burden of Proof is on TFES to showcase evidence disproving decades of scientific research that can't just be explained away as a "conspiracy". Tell me, how much does NASA have to gain from releasing fake photos to "lie" to us that the earth is round when the average American spends more money on pizza every year than their yearly budget (27 billion dollars worth of pizza). NASA's FY 2011 budget of $18.4 billion represented about 0.5% of the $3.4 trillion United States federal budget during that year, or about 35% of total spending on academic scientific research in the United States. These numbers are minuscule.

You say there is no increased line of sight on a flat earth... when I literally used your own illustration to show you that there is. That brown line is the line of sight. You can technically see objects that are further away than you could from the ground.

You didn't offer any mathematical or scientific accompaniment with your illustrations because you don't have any. You show us MS Paint sketches without any evidence that you have even a rudimentary knowledge how light or optics work.

1. The brown lines are exactly the same length.

2. When you are standing on the ground, you are in air at roughly one atmosphere of pressure; so are the points on the earth that you see on the horizon; and so is the whole path of the light from the horizon to you. In this case there is no significant boundary where the refractive index (RI) changes, nor is there an appreciable deviation in RI over the path of the light you are seeing. Therefore there will be no bending of the light rays, and no effect on the perceived curvature of the horizon. That's why the world seems flat at a glance.
When you are at significant altitude, you are in air at significantly lower pressure than the air at the surface of the earth. Therefore the light from the horizon moves through a region with a pronounced gradient in RI. This causes the light rays to curve, making the radius of the horizon appear larger (and thus the curvature smaller) than it otherwise would. The Earth curves at the rate of 157mrad per km travelled. The refractive index of dry air at sea level is 1.00029, but at a height of 1km, the air pressure is 12% less and (neglecting temperature density and humidity), the refractive index would be 1 + 0.00029 * 88%. The difference, 0.000035 means that light at 1km altitude travels 35mm further for every km, curving the path of light by 35mrad per km travelled, about 20% of the Earth's curvature.. allowing us to see past the theoretical horizon a bit .. an extra 20% distance at an altitude of 10km. On a flat earth this would be impossible, as light would not curve and you would see the same distance no matter where you were.

1. Those brown lines are not at all the same length. Not sure what you're looking at.

2. An awful lot of mental gymnastics and meteorology to explain why the Earth looks flat, and is flat, for 99% of intents and purposes.

1. Those brown lines are not at all the same length. Not sure what you're looking at.

2. An awful lot of mental gymnastics and meteorology to explain why the Earth looks flat, and is flat, for 99% of intents and purposes.

1. I intended for them to be the same size

2. So I give you the scientific accompaniment that you asked for behind optics and light creating the illusion of a flat earth and you call it too complex and just throw it out? What exactly are you trying to achieve here other than to pander the hugely discredited empirical evidence of "I see flat so it is" because you don't actually have an argument? Correct me if I'm wrong but I seems like that.
"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death" -(Miyamoto Musashi)

1. Those brown lines are not at all the same length. Not sure what you're looking at.

2. An awful lot of mental gymnastics and meteorology to explain why the Earth looks flat, and is flat, for 99% of intents and purposes.

1. I intended for them to be the same size

2. So I give you the scientific accompaniment that you asked for behind optics and light creating the illusion of a flat earth and you call it too complex and just throw it out? What exactly are you trying to achieve here other than to pander the hugely discredited empirical evidence of "I see flat so it is" because you don't actually have an argument? Correct me if I'm wrong but I seems like that.

1. The illustration in my post is one that I made, based on yours,  to show how you can have a perceived increased line of sight. Not sure if you noticed that I changed your sketch. Even then you completely ignore the fact that in real life, your field of view shrinks to the vanishing point, so the ground or the ocean appears to come up and meet the sky. Your illustration doesn't account for that. If you're looking straight forward, toward the horizon, the ground wouldn't appear parallel to your line of sight.



2. I fail to see how the mathematics behind atmospheric refraction have anything to do with making a round earth look flat. Also, your assertion that bending light is the reason you can see further with altitude is entirely dependent on the assumption of a round earth.

Quote
You can see that the water stretches all the way out to the horizon. If the Earth were flat, and the water's surface was flat as well, shouldn't you be able to see the land on the other side? In fact, why is there even a horizon at all if the Earth is flat? Flat Earth theory can't explain it, but round Earth theory can

I'm not totally sure if that is your response to geeko, because the formatting problems. But if you think you should be able to look from New York all the way to the UK then you obviously do not understand flat earth theory enough at all to be making declarative statements about what it can or can not explain.

1. I can't see the image, sorry

2. Yes it does affect the horizon because refraction influences the apparent distance to the horizon, it also has an effect on the curvature. To visualize this, it might help to think in extreme cases, for example in the case where due to refraction the horizon is at an apparent distance of only 1 meter. In this case, the curvature of the horizon would be extreme (it would be a circle of radius 1 meter around you). In reality the curvature effect is much smaller than this example of course.

3. If I don't understand the FE theory well enough then educate me, I answered geeko's question now it's your turn. How is there a horizon on a flat earth? I explained how it would work on a round earth so now tell us how it would work on a flat one.
"Generally speaking, the Way of the warrior is resolute acceptance of death" -(Miyamoto Musashi)

Offline geckothegeek

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My problem is that I can not visualize where the horizon would be if the earth was flat ?
Would it be where the ice dome meets the ice ring ?
Would there even be any such thing as a "horizon" if the earth was flat ?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:24:20 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline geckothegeek

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1. Those brown lines are not at all the same length. Not sure what you're looking at.

2. An awful lot of mental gymnastics and meteorology to explain why the Earth looks flat, and is flat, for 99% of intents and purposes.

1. I intended for them to be the same size

2. So I give you the scientific accompaniment that you asked for behind optics and light creating the illusion of a flat earth and you call it too complex and just throw it out? What exactly are you trying to achieve here other than to pander the hugely discredited empirical evidence of "I see flat so it is" because you don't actually have an argument? Correct me if I'm wrong but I seems like that.

1. The illustration in my post is one that I made, based on yours,  to show how you can have a perceived increased line of sight. Not sure if you noticed that I changed your sketch. Even then you completely ignore the fact that in real life, your field of view shrinks to the vanishing point, so the ground or the ocean appears to come up and meet the sky. Your illustration doesn't account for that. If you're looking straight forward, toward the horizon, the ground wouldn't appear parallel to your line of sight.



2. I fail to see how the mathematics behind atmospheric refraction have anything to do with making a round earth look flat. Also, your assertion that bending light is the reason you can see further with altitude is entirely dependent on the assumption of a round earth.

Quote
You can see that the water stretches all the way out to the horizon. If the Earth were flat, and the water's surface was flat as well, shouldn't you be able to see the land on the other side? In fact, why is there even a horizon at all if the Earth is flat? Flat Earth theory can't explain it, but round Earth theory can

I'm not totally sure if that is your response to geeko, because the formatting problems. But if you think you should be able to look from New York all the way to the UK then you obviously do not understand flat earth theory enough at all to be making declarative statements about what it can or can not explain.

I think you should be able to see from New York to the UK if it wasn't for the "atmoplanic" effects...if the earth was flat.
There are photographic films and filters that eliminated atmospherics and theoretically if you had the right films and filters and a powerful enough telescope you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York....if the earth was flat. But why , even with all those things, you can't.  Why not ? Because the earth IS NOT FLAT !
I have had some experiences with my old 35 mm. Canon AL-1 SLR, Ektachrome Infra Red Film and the proper filters. It could be done....if the earth was flat.
Do a little research on means to eleminate atmosperic effects....or in your case,  "atmoplanic" effects. LOL

TruthIsOnHere...
You are going to have a hard time explaining why you think the earth is flat to anyone who has ever been in the Navy.....for just one example. You do know that the earth is a globe ? It's just not an assumption. It's a fact !    LOL !
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 07:46:51 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

I think you should be able to see from New York to the UK if it wasn't for the "atmoplanic" effects...if the earth was flat.
There are photographic films and filters that eliminated atmospherics and theoretically if you had the right films and filters and a powerful enough telescope you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York....if the earth was flat. But why , even with all those things, you can't.  Why not ? Because the earth IS NOT FLAT !
I have had some experiences with my old 35 mm. Canon AL-1 SLR, Ektachrome Infra Red Film and the proper filters. It could be done....if the earth was flat.

This has got to be one of the dumbest, most assanine things I have ever read on this forum... which, keep in mind, is a FLAT EARTH forum.

Why can't you see every single star in the entire universe when you look into the sky at night?

Offline geckothegeek

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You're right.This is the flat earth website forum . It has to be one of the dumbest things on the Internet. LOL.

I was just giving some tips on how you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York if the earth was flat.
What was dumb about that ?

It depends on whether you are in the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere. You can only see half of the universe depending on which side of the earth on which you are located. You can see Polaris but you can't see the Southern Cross from the Northern Hemisphere. You can see the Southern Cross but you can't see Polaris from the Southern Hemisphere.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:12:05 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

You're right.This is the flat earth website forum . It has to be one of the dumbest things on the Internet. LOL.

I was just giving some tips on how you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York if the earth was flat.
What was dumb about that ?

It depends on whether you are in the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere. You can only see half of the universe depending on which side of the earth on which you are located.

So you are saying that you can see every star in the universe, as long as your facing it?

Offline geckothegeek

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You're right.This is the flat earth website forum . It has to be one of the dumbest things on the Internet. LOL.

I was just giving some tips on how you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York if the earth was flat.
What was dumb about that ?

It depends on whether you are in the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere. You can only see half of the universe depending on which side of the earth on which you are located.

So you are saying that you can see every star in the universe, as long as your facing it?

I would have to check that out with an astronomical observatory to be absolutely certain if you could. I will admit I'm not sure about "ever star in the universe." As far as "every star in the universe" I don't know if we are ever going to be able to do that, even with the Hubble Telescope and the other advances in astronomy.(?)

One last try.
Is there a horizon on a flat earth ?
If so, where is it ?
« Last Edit: March 03, 2017, 08:58:52 PM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline geckothegeek

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Another suggestion. Why don't you just e-mail, phone, or just visit an astronomical observatory ? I am sure they would be happy to help you. Or don't you trust anyone but yourself ?
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

You're right.This is the flat earth website forum . It has to be one of the dumbest things on the Internet. LOL.

I was just giving some tips on how you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York if the earth was flat.
What was dumb about that ?

It depends on whether you are in the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere. You can only see half of the universe depending on which side of the earth on which you are located.

So you are saying that you can see every star in the universe, as long as your facing it?

I would have to check that out with an astronomical observatory to be absolutely certain if you could. I will admit I'm not sure about "ever star in the universe." As far as "every star in the universe" I don't know if we are ever going to be able to do that, even with the Hubble Telescope and the other advances in astronomy.(?)

One last try.
Is there a horizon on a flat earth ?
If so, where is it ?

Why can't you see every star in the universe, assuming you are facing it? Please follow me on this line of questioning so we can relate it to the horizon and what would or wouldn't be visible beyond it.

Offline geckothegeek

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You're right.This is the flat earth website forum . It has to be one of the dumbest things on the Internet. LOL.

I was just giving some tips on how you should be able to take pictures of the UK from New York if the earth was flat.
What was dumb about that ?

It depends on whether you are in the Northern or the Southern Hemisphere. You can only see half of the universe depending on which side of the earth on which you are located.

So you are saying that you can see every star in the universe, as long as your facing it?

I would have to check that out with an astronomical observatory to be absolutely certain if you could. I will admit I'm not sure about "ever star in the universe." As far as "every star in the universe" I don't know if we are ever going to be able to do that, even with the Hubble Telescope and the other advances in astronomy.(?)

One last try.
Is there a horizon on a flat earth ?
If so, where is it ?

Why can't you see every star in the universe, assuming you are facing it? Please follow me on this line of questioning so we can relate it to the horizon and what would or wouldn't be visible beyond it.

By "see every star in the universe", are you refering to what a normal person with good eyesight can see with the naked eye, or how many you can see with the most powerful telescopes ? I would really have to ask an observatory for the answer to how much of the universe you can see. I think it would depend on how far you can see to the horizon, which would depend on your height. On a flat earth I don't think it would make any difference. But on the round earth you would only be able too see maybe a little less than half of the universe, depending on which hemisphere and which part of that hemisphere you were looking from.

See the lower illustration on Reply #8 on Page 1.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2017, 04:59:36 AM by geckothegeek »
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !

Offline geckothegeek

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I have yet to see a flat earth explanation of the horizon.

I'm not an expert by any means on flat earth, but this is the way it seems to me.:
If the earth was flat, there would be no curvature of the earth.
If there was no curvature of the earth, there would be no horizon.
If there was no horizon there would be no limit to the distance you would be able to see.
If there was no limit to the distance you could see, and if you were high enough above the mountains, buildings or other objects, and with a telescope of high enough power, you should be able to see the ice wall from any place on a flat earth.
But the thickness of the "atmoplane" , haze, and other effects, would prevent you from seeing the ice wall.
Therefore, you would not see a horizon, but (Quote I have seen from the flat earth) "You would see an indistinct blur, which fades away at an indefinite distance."
Correct me, flat earthers, if you have a better explanation .
Stick close to your P.C's and never go to sea
And You All may be Rulers of The Flat Earth Society

Yes, Never, Never, Never go to sea
Just look out your windows,
Flat ! Flat ! Flat !
Is all that you shall see !