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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4500 on: November 01, 2019, 06:50:49 AM »
So now Trump's cronies are attacking Democrats for being "secretive" about the way they're conducting things so far... complaining about the Democrats using a procedure that the Republicans happen to have been instrumental in putting in place. This is what you call "grasping at straws".

Also, there are republicans on the comittees that are interviewing.  So not so secret.
Also they are complaining because Pelosi is now making it all public.  Both interviews and transcripts of past interviews.  Guess they are afraid.  Not sure of what.  Not like Trump is gonna be convicted by his literal peers.

Re: Trump
« Reply #4501 on: November 01, 2019, 10:47:21 AM »
So now Trump's cronies are attacking Democrats for being "secretive" about the way they're conducting things so far... complaining about the Democrats using a procedure that the Republicans happen to have been instrumental in putting in place. This is what you call "grasping at straws".

Also, there are republicans on the comittees that are interviewing.  So not so secret.
Also they are complaining because Pelosi is now making it all public.  Both interviews and transcripts of past interviews.  Guess they are afraid.  Not sure of what.  Not like Trump is gonna be convicted by his literal peers.
He won't be convicted because there is no crime or even a misdemeanor here.

The whole thing is fake.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4502 on: November 01, 2019, 11:14:57 AM »
So now Trump's cronies are attacking Democrats for being "secretive" about the way they're conducting things so far... complaining about the Democrats using a procedure that the Republicans happen to have been instrumental in putting in place. This is what you call "grasping at straws".

Also, there are republicans on the comittees that are interviewing.  So not so secret.
Also they are complaining because Pelosi is now making it all public.  Both interviews and transcripts of past interviews.  Guess they are afraid.  Not sure of what.  Not like Trump is gonna be convicted by his literal peers.
He won't be convicted because there is no crime or even a misdemeanor here.

The whole thing is fake.
Just like Bill Clinton, am I right?
That was all fake.  And we know because he wasn't convicted.

However, for an innocent man, he sure is fighting hard.  I mean, does he think the republicans in congress can be swayed?

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4503 on: November 01, 2019, 11:45:08 AM »
Man, I miss the days when Trump was a serial rapist and a Russian superspy. Now he's colluding with Russia's enemies to illegally uphold the law.

American politics is a gift that keeps on giving.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4504 on: November 01, 2019, 12:06:28 PM »
Man, I miss the days when Trump was a serial rapist and a Russian superspy. Now he's colluding with Russia's enemies to illegally uphold the law.

American politics is a gift that keeps on giving.

Russia's enemies?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4505 on: November 01, 2019, 12:39:36 PM »
Man, I miss the days when Trump was a serial rapist and a Russian superspy. Now he's colluding with Russia's enemies to illegally uphold the law.

American politics is a gift that keeps on giving.

Asking Ukraine to investigate the Biden's isnt upholding the law.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4506 on: November 01, 2019, 01:04:04 PM »
Russia's enemies?
You'd think it's safe to conclude that a country whose territory you're illegally occupying is your enemy, or at the very least that they view you as an enemy.

Asking Ukraine to investigate the Biden's isnt upholding the law.
Why not? There's reasonable suspicion that the law has been broken, and that the original investigation may have been closed improperly (Note that this is separate from Trump's claim that Biden Sr. was involved).

Resuming that investigation and finding out whether or not the law has been broken (both in the original case nd in the case of the investigation's closure) sounds rather straight-forward to me. Opposing the investigation of a suspected criminal, to me, sounds like a difficult position to defend.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4507 on: November 01, 2019, 04:34:46 PM »
Russia's enemies?
You'd think it's safe to conclude that a country whose territory you're illegally occupying is your enemy, or at the very least that they view you as an enemy.

Asking Ukraine to investigate the Biden's isnt upholding the law.
Why not? There's reasonable suspicion that the law has been broken, and that the original investigation may have been closed improperly (Note that this is separate from Trump's claim that Biden Sr. was involved).

Resuming that investigation and finding out whether or not the law has been broken (both in the original case nd in the case of the investigation's closure) sounds rather straight-forward to me. Opposing the investigation of a suspected criminal, to me, sounds like a difficult position to defend.

Oh.  Well, in fairness, he did block aide money allocated to fight Russia for a period of time.  Which earned him bipartisan backlash. 

Also: not sure its collusion as Ukraine gets nothing from it that wasn't already promised.  Its more like blackmail.


As for justice: The US president has no jurisdiction in Ukraine so that bit is irrelevant.  Now, if he wants to open up a formal inquery into Biden and his use of his office for personal gain, thats another matter and there are ways to do that.  None of which he did.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4508 on: November 01, 2019, 04:52:22 PM »
The US president has no jurisdiction in Ukraine so that bit is irrelevant.
I don't see where jurisdiction comes into this. The two countries have a treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters. This investigation should be taking place in the Ukraine, because that's where the alleged criminal activity took place. And, if true, this activity would be of interest to the US (and could subsequently justify the inquiries you're supporting).

Of course, the default assumption should be that Biden Jr. is innocent (until proven guilty), but the process of proving or disproving that shouldn't be obstructed.
« Last Edit: November 01, 2019, 04:54:09 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4509 on: November 01, 2019, 05:10:48 PM »
The US president has no jurisdiction in Ukraine so that bit is irrelevant.
I don't see where jurisdiction comes into this. The two countries have a treaty on mutual assistance in criminal matters. This investigation should be taking place in the Ukraine, because that's where the alleged criminal activity took place. And, if true, this activity would be of interest to the US (and could subsequently justify the inquiries you're supporting).

Of course, the default assumption should be that Biden Jr. is innocent (until proven guilty), but the process of proving or disproving that shouldn't be obstructed.

Yes, but the treaty is quite clear.  It is not "Hey, start an investigation for me.(especially one you already did and closed)." Its "Hey I have an investigation I need your help with.  Here's the relevant information."

So again, Trump needs to begin an investigation IN AMERICA before he can ask for help on it.

So the question I have is: why hasn't he?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4510 on: November 01, 2019, 05:30:11 PM »
Asking Ukraine to investigate the Biden's isnt upholding the law.
Why not? There's reasonable suspicion that the law has been broken, and that the original investigation may have been closed improperly (Note that this is separate from Trump's claim that Biden Sr. was involved).

Where is the reasonable suspicion that the law had been broken by a Biden?  The story with Biden was that he was getting paid too much money to be a board member in a field he has no expertise in.  That isn't a crime, its poor management. Trump was asking to investigate the Biden's not the company.  There was also reasonable grounds to ask for the dismissal of the prosecutor who was blocking the investigation in to Burisma (as mentioned in the Independent article you cited).

Quote
Resuming that investigation and finding out whether or not the law has been broken (both in the original case nd in the case of the investigation's closure) sounds rather straight-forward to me. Opposing the investigation of a suspected criminal, to me, sounds like a difficult position to defend.

Trump isn't asking for an investigation into a suspected criminal.  He is asking for an investigation into the Biden's for asking for the dismissal of a prosecutor who was widely regarded as corrupt, not just by the Obama administration, but by the EU, UN, and IMF.  Trump didn't make the request through the formal channels proscribed by their agreement with the Ukraine either, he did so on a phone call that some of his aides, as well as the whistleblower,  were concerned looked like a Quid Pro Quo.  This is why there is an impeachment hearing underway.  If this request were made in an official and straightforward manner, then you would have a case.  But it wasn't so you don't.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4511 on: November 03, 2019, 10:08:49 AM »
Where is the reasonable suspicion that the law had been broken by a Biden? The story with Biden was that he was getting paid too much money to be a board member in a field he has no expertise in.  That isn't a crime, its poor management.
It's the same as with the original inquiry - influential people magically receiving money for not doing anything is rarely "poor management" (though we can't discount that, and it will remain the default position until the new investigation is concluded). It's suspected (as is often the case) that bribery or some other form of corruption was at play. These things aren't normally just shrugged off - they get investigated. This case should be no different.

[Trump was asking to investigate the Bidens and not the company]
This strikes me as a very forced distinction. Investigating one strictly requires investigating the other. But perhaps I'm being too generous.

[Biden was justified in pushing for the dismissal of a prosecutor who just coincidentally happened to be investigating his son]
Perhaps. However, the prosecutor being dismissed doesn't necessitate the investigation being dismissed - and the fact that it may have been dismissed improperly was acknowledged before Trump got involved.

If this request were made in an official and straightforward manner, then you would have a case.  But it wasn't so you don't.
They had a phone conversation, and then the conspiracy theorists started spasming again. Neither of us knows whether a formal request will follow, because the proceedings are still ongoing.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2019, 10:13:02 AM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Trump
« Reply #4512 on: November 04, 2019, 11:47:25 AM »
Just like Bill Clinton, am I right?
That was all fake.  And we know because he wasn't convicted.

However, for an innocent man, he sure is fighting hard.  I mean, does he think the republicans in congress can be swayed?
Has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

The real story is the why these things take place.

All of this is smoke and mirrors to cover for another government shutdown.

The US cannot pay its debt and the Fed is no longer going to lend it money.

That is why there will be a civil war in this country.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4513 on: November 04, 2019, 12:43:30 PM »
Just like Bill Clinton, am I right?
That was all fake.  And we know because he wasn't convicted.

However, for an innocent man, he sure is fighting hard.  I mean, does he think the republicans in congress can be swayed?
Has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

The real story is the why these things take place.

All of this is smoke and mirrors to cover for another government shutdown.

The US cannot pay its debt and the Fed is no longer going to lend it money.

That is why there will be a civil war in this country.

Ummm.... You do realize that Trump and his party have been in control of the money, right?  What happened to the great economy?  The big tax cut law?  Etc...?

Re: Trump
« Reply #4514 on: November 06, 2019, 01:51:13 PM »
Just like Bill Clinton, am I right?
That was all fake.  And we know because he wasn't convicted.

However, for an innocent man, he sure is fighting hard.  I mean, does he think the republicans in congress can be swayed?
Has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

The real story is the why these things take place.

All of this is smoke and mirrors to cover for another government shutdown.

The US cannot pay its debt and the Fed is no longer going to lend it money.

That is why there will be a civil war in this country.

Ummm.... You do realize that Trump and his party have been in control of the money, right?  What happened to the great economy?  The big tax cut law?  Etc...?
Ummm...you realize when Trump spent military funds on the wall, you were writing Democrats in the House had control over how the money was spent, right?

Regardless, neither party controls the money machine...that is controlled by international bankers, just like everything else.

And that is the real story, not covered by fake news.
I didn't say (conversion of) thermal energy wasn't involved at all.
A rocket does not create thrust by converting thermal energy.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4515 on: November 06, 2019, 05:35:14 PM »
Just like Bill Clinton, am I right?
That was all fake.  And we know because he wasn't convicted.

However, for an innocent man, he sure is fighting hard.  I mean, does he think the republicans in congress can be swayed?
Has nothing to do with Bill Clinton.

The real story is the why these things take place.

All of this is smoke and mirrors to cover for another government shutdown.

The US cannot pay its debt and the Fed is no longer going to lend it money.

That is why there will be a civil war in this country.

Ummm.... You do realize that Trump and his party have been in control of the money, right?  What happened to the great economy?  The big tax cut law?  Etc...?
Ummm...you realize when Trump spent military funds on the wall, you were writing Democrats in the House had control over how the money was spent, right?

Regardless, neither party controls the money machine...that is controlled by international bankers, just like everything else.

And that is the real story, not covered by fake news.

Actually I said congress, not Democrats in the house.  Which is accurate.  However, if you recall, republicans had full control over the house, senate, and presidency in 2017 and 2018.

Also recall, the big tax cut law that was supposed to spur on the economy.  It did not.

Trump also started a trade war with China that he assured us was "easy to win".  Its hasn't helped much.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4516 on: November 06, 2019, 09:13:59 PM »
Now he's colluding with Russia's enemies to illegally uphold the law.

lol, keep on trollin'

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-administration-ukraine-policy/index.html

"There couldn't have been a quid pro quo because Trump and the people he has working for him are too incompetent to even know what quid pro quo is!"

Yeah, that's a reasonable argument for keeping this administration in place.  ::)

Grasping at straws.
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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4517 on: November 07, 2019, 04:45:26 AM »
Now he's colluding with Russia's enemies to illegally uphold the law.

lol, keep on trollin'

https://www.cnn.com/2019/11/06/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-administration-ukraine-policy/index.html

"There couldn't have been a quid pro quo because Trump and the people he has working for him are too incompetent to even know what quid pro quo is!"

Yeah, that's a reasonable argument for keeping this administration in place.  ::)

Grasping at straws.
....
Yeah.  Straw grasping alright.  No wonder they're all deathly afraid of impeachment.

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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4518 on: November 07, 2019, 07:06:08 AM »
I am seriously baffled as to why this bothers them so much.  Just let the House impeach.  Put together a 'trial' in the senate.  Everyone considers the facts very carefully and then makes a determination as to whether the president is a Republican or not. 

The angle they'll almost certainly go with is that it was bad but not impeachable and besides there's an election a year from now.  Let the voters decide.

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #4519 on: November 07, 2019, 07:20:13 AM »
I am seriously baffled as to why this bothers them so much.  Just let the House impeach.  Put together a 'trial' in the senate.  Everyone considers the facts very carefully and then makes a determination as to whether the president is a Republican or not. 

The angle they'll almost certainly go with is that it was bad but not impeachable and besides there's an election a year from now.  Let the voters decide.

Because Trump would be marked as the third president impeached.  And he'd be in the same spot as Bill Clinton.  AND it would mean that future democrat presidents who behave like this can point to Trump and say "you didn't convict so its ok for me to do this."