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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1860 on: July 11, 2017, 08:52:59 PM »
It's called opposition research, and everyone does it. Hillary's team met with the russians peddling the Trump-Stripper-Pee story. How is this any different?

The problem is that Opposition Research does not allow foreign governments to provide that information.  Especially as support on behalf of said government.

Re: Trump
« Reply #1861 on: July 11, 2017, 08:58:42 PM »
The Steele Dossier was also originally being compiled by Fusion GPS, and American company, on the behalf of a Republican client. Fusion then hired a British oppo research company later, from my understanding, and a Democrat began funding it. The Clinton campaign itself wasn't involved in the Steele Dossier.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1862 on: July 11, 2017, 09:01:26 PM »
Tom,you're behind on the story... even Fox seems to recognize and be willing to own that this is a particularly damaging story. Isn't that where you copy most of your arguments from?

www.foxnews.com/politics/2017/07/11/trump-jr-burns-gop-defenders.html
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1863 on: July 11, 2017, 09:25:56 PM »
Is Donald Trump Jr. a literal moron or something?

The apple don't fall too far.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1864 on: July 11, 2017, 09:44:17 PM »
It's called opposition research, and everyone does it. Hillary's team met with the russians peddling the Trump-Stripper-Pee story. How is this any different?

The problem is that Opposition Research does not allow foreign governments to provide that information.  Especially as support on behalf of said government.

The lawyer in question is not a foreign government agent.


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Offline crutonius

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1865 on: July 11, 2017, 10:05:52 PM »
It's called opposition research, and everyone does it. Hillary's team met with the russians peddling the Trump-Stripper-Pee story. How is this any different?

The problem is that Opposition Research does not allow foreign governments to provide that information.  Especially as support on behalf of said government.

The lawyer in question is not a foreign government agent.



Well somebody thought she was a foreign government agent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/donald-trump-jr-was-told-campaign-meeting-would-be-with-russian-government-lawyer-according-to-emails/2017/07/11/70b957e2-664c-11e7-9928-22d00a47778f_story.html?hpid=hp_hp-top-table-main_russiatrump-1135am%3Ahomepage%2Fstory&utm_term=.4efc66a60060

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Offline Lord Dave

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1866 on: July 11, 2017, 10:23:45 PM »
It's called opposition research, and everyone does it. Hillary's team met with the russians peddling the Trump-Stripper-Pee story. How is this any different?

The problem is that Opposition Research does not allow foreign governments to provide that information.  Especially as support on behalf of said government.

The lawyer in question is not a foreign government agent.


http://www.npr.org/2017/07/11/536648394/emails-show-trump-jr-knew-russia-was-working-to-support-trump-campaign

To quote the e-mail that he received:
Quote
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

Quote
Don
Hope all is well.
Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday.

Literally saying that they are doing this on behalf of the Russian Government and that she IS a Russian government attorney.

If an undercover cop asks if I want illegal drugs and I say yes and meet with him to buy said drugs, is that suddenly not illegal because it wasn't real drugs I was about to buy nor the dealer a real drug dealer?


Re: Trump
« Reply #1867 on: July 11, 2017, 10:35:50 PM »
It's called opposition research...How is this any different?

domestic research firms are accountable to us laws, constitutional privacy protections, and criminal prosecution.  foreign intelligence services are not.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1868 on: July 11, 2017, 11:16:00 PM »
It's called opposition research, and everyone does it. Hillary's team met with the russians peddling the Trump-Stripper-Pee story. How is this any different?

The problem is that Opposition Research does not allow foreign governments to provide that information.  Especially as support on behalf of said government.

The lawyer in question is not a foreign government agent.


http://www.npr.org/2017/07/11/536648394/emails-show-trump-jr-knew-russia-was-working-to-support-trump-campaign

To quote the e-mail that he received:
Quote
This is obviously very high level and sensitive information but is part of Russia and its government's support for Mr. Trump - helped along by Aras and Emin.

Quote
Don
Hope all is well.
Emin asked that I schedule a meeting with you and The Russian government attorney who is flying over from Moscow for this Thursday.

Literally saying that they are doing this on behalf of the Russian Government and that she IS a Russian government attorney.

If an undercover cop asks if I want illegal drugs and I say yes and meet with him to buy said drugs, is that suddenly not illegal because it wasn't real drugs I was about to buy nor the dealer a real drug dealer?

And the email actually says that it's part of the Russian government's attempts to influence the election in Trump's favor. As Dave points out, the salient point is that Dunce Jr thought he was meeting with a representative of the Russian government. Also relevant is that it proves the Trump camp knew about the Russians' attempt to influence the election all while they vehemently denied it and cast it as a silly attempt by the Left to delegitimize Trump's presidency (as it turned out Dunce Jr has now done exactly that without even needing the Left's help!)

This is so big even Tom seems flustered trying to justify it, LOL
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1869 on: July 11, 2017, 11:39:24 PM »
Please show me exactly what law he broke.

Trump Jr. didn't promise anything, or offer to do anything. Even if this was a direct Kremlin representative (it wasn't), they didn't promise anything or offer to do anything either, apart from show Trump Jr. the information they had gathered.

Receiving information isn't a crime. If it were, then we could spam info at each other to initiate a malicious prosecution whenever we wanted. Sure, there are laws against taking money from a foreign power to finance a campaign. But that's not what we're talking about here. "Collusion" has become this nebulous concept that isn't limited to illegal conduct. Exchanging information isn't illegal, even if it's illegally procured.

The email from Rob Goldstone said that the Russian government supports Trump's candidacy. But that isn't a crime on the behalf of anyone from Trump's camp, and that doesn't mean you need to build a firewall against anyone who might have some alleged ties to all other foreign governments. You can't take money from them. You can't promise them anything in return for their support. But if someone offers to send you free information damaging to Hillary, you don't have to turn them away just because they're wearing a Russian hat.

In contrast, Hillary Clinton actually accepted money from a foreign power for her campaign, which IS a crime.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2017, 11:45:21 PM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1870 on: July 11, 2017, 11:42:49 PM »
Read the literature, Tom, it's all there. I'm not going to do your research for you.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1871 on: July 11, 2017, 11:50:04 PM »
Read the literature, Tom, it's all there. I'm not going to do your research for you.

Vladimir Putin himself could email Donald Trump a PDF containing damaging information on Hillary Clinton, and it still would not be collusion.

Favors were not promised, and money was not exchanged, so where is the collusion?

Show us the laws.

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1872 on: July 12, 2017, 12:08:42 AM »
In contrast, Hillary Clinton actually accepted money from a foreign power for her campaign, which IS a crime.

A crank website claiming this doesn't make it true.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1873 on: July 12, 2017, 12:21:09 AM »
In contrast, Hillary Clinton actually accepted money from a foreign power for her campaign, which IS a crime.

A crank website claiming this doesn't make it true.

How is it a crank website? The site links to the documents where the information was stated, as well as to another news site which corroborates the events.

Re: Trump
« Reply #1874 on: July 12, 2017, 12:33:21 AM »
what we know so far probably isn't criminal.  that's not really the point.

the point is that the trump campaign made some extremely dubious and profoundly unethical decisions that allowed them to be completely compromised by a foreign intelligence service that stole documents from one of our political parties with the intent to disrupt our democratic process.  and then spent a little over a year lying about it.

like, even if you think that nothing about any of this is improper (lol), it's still a crushing blow to whatever shambles of a legislative agenda the president ever had.  that shit is gone.  his political capital is gone.  independents are never gonna get on the trump train again, and he can't lead the nation with only 20% support from the bannonists.

i doubt anyone's gonna go to jail over this, but i'll throw two predictions (confidence level...8?) out there: 1) this is just the beginning.  trump jr lied about the meeting for a year, and then he lied about its context when he got caught.  i don't think this is the only omission by trump jr.  2) the trump train is now fully derailed.  it's over.  his legislative agenda is done.  we get 3.5 years of lame duck presidency.

also this: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/deleted-official-report-says-saudi-key-funder-hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-223282807

nothing about the clinton story is coroborrated.  it's literally just a zerohedge article saying "someone said that saudis give money to the clinton campaign."
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 12:35:11 AM by garygreen »
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1875 on: July 12, 2017, 02:43:18 AM »
the trump train is now fully derailed.  it's over.  his legislative agenda is done.  we get 3.5 years of lame duck presidency.

This is far from the first time Republicans have acted like they're about to abandon Trump. We know the pattern by now. A major scandal that would have destroyed any other politician emerges, members of both parties make disapproving noises, and Trump simply hunkers down and weathers the storm for a few days until the outrage fades away (or is replaced by yet another scandal). Trump will survive this. The worst case scenario for him is that he'll turn his son into a scapegoat and throw him under the bus.
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1876 on: July 12, 2017, 03:26:44 AM »
I like to think there's a tipping point, but what that point would need to be has already reached shocking levels. Who knows?
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1877 on: July 12, 2017, 06:18:20 AM »
How is it a major scandal if nothing illegal has occurred? A scandal implies that rules were broken.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1878 on: July 12, 2017, 06:36:55 AM »
also this: http://www.middleeasteye.net/news/deleted-official-report-says-saudi-key-funder-hillary-clinton-presidential-campaign-223282807

nothing about the clinton story is coroborrated.  it's literally just a zerohedge article saying "someone said that saudis give money to the clinton campaign."

Your article is a source in the zerohedge article and backs up what the zerohedge article says exactly. It says that the quotes from the saudi prince were published by two agencies, one of which was taken down, and the other which still exists on the Institute for Gulf Affairs website. A link to the Institute for Gulf Affairs article with the saudi prince quotes that Saudi Arabia funded 20% of the Clinton campaign is provided in the fourth paragraph.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 06:58:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1879 on: July 12, 2017, 07:50:41 AM »
Gary and Tom are mostly correct. Nothing criminal has been revealed yet. We already know that stating an intent to collude is not grounds for stumping the Trump. We've tested that one when Trump loudly invited the Russians to obtain and release Hillary's emails.

The lame duck prediction, however, I profoundly disagree with. Like, lol breaking news Lindsay Graham is screeching about Trump. Again. But this time it totally means something. Yep.

Also:

This is so big even Tom seems flustered trying to justify it, LOL
Read the literature, Tom, it's all there. I'm not going to do your research for you.
Damn, you change your tune quickly when confronted.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2017, 08:00:01 AM by SexWarrior »
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