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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1500 on: May 19, 2017, 10:23:55 PM »
Why the hell would anybody waste their time worrying about Hillary? She's not the president, Trump is. It's not a conspiracy that people are more concerned with what the President of the United States is up to than his defeated opponent, who no longer holds any office at all.
So, let us for a moment assume that Trump lost. Bernie's in office (let's face it, a hypothetical scenario in which Hillary wins is just too much), but the meme-conspiracy has already been started. The meme-conspiracy theorists believe that Russia tried to install Trump and failed.

Do you:
  • Ignore it because it no longer matters; after all, the Russian meddling wasn't such a big deal, and we should focus on the president instead
  • Press the matter further because Russian meddling is serious business and the American people clearly care and also it is very important and the Soviets did the same thing before and oh no
Choose wisely!
« Last Edit: May 19, 2017, 10:25:45 PM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1501 on: May 19, 2017, 11:06:57 PM »
Why the hell would anybody waste their time worrying about Hillary? She's not the president, Trump is. It's not a conspiracy that people are more concerned with what the President of the United States is up to than his defeated opponent, who no longer holds any office at all.

They are trying to make sure people like you stay on the reservation, Saddam. The DNC politically murdered your preferred candidate and you voted for Hillary anyway because Trump is a scary Russian puppet. It takes a lot of effort to keep that level of fearmongering up and the last thing they want is people to be reminded of the DNC corruption again.

There's obviously political reasons as to why Fox talks about DNC corruption nonstop and CNN talks about Trump and Russia nonstop. It's not rocket science, it doesn't even require a stretch of the imagination. Both parties are trying to destroy the other, and quite frankly, the Republicans are winning.

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Online Tom Bishop

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1502 on: May 20, 2017, 01:03:45 AM »
i agree with virtually every word of this national review article: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/446339/donald-trump-russia-2016-election-controversy-explained

Quote
We don’t know the most important facts of the case, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t know anything important. It’s important and troubling to know that members of the intelligence community are seemingly leaking with impunity to damage Trump. It’s important and troubling to know that Trump has lost key aides because of their Russia ties, and that Trump and his team continue struggling to tell the truth about their Russian contacts. And it’s important and troubling to know that huge swaths of the American political establishment are being exposed as purely partisan.

The FBI is continuing its investigation, and so are the House and Senate intelligence committees (though Nunes’s House committee is in a state of chaos). Every major media publication is feverishly chasing the various threads of the story. It’s entirely possible that we’re not at the beginning of the end of this scandal, but rather at the end of the beginning. It’s also entirely possible that the end, when it comes, will leave political casualties on all sides, from bureaucrats who may face prosecution for unlawful leaks to public figures who may face ruin for unlawful or inappropriate foreign contacts.

One thing is clear: The Russian government has run one of the most cost-effective and disruptive espionage operations in history. Through a few simple hacks of the DNC, some basic online trolling, and garden-variety propaganda spread by modern means, the Kremlin has turned a superpower’s politics upside down. Its chief geopolitical rival is divided, with leaders obviously more furious at each other than at the foreign power who created the crisis. Russia may well face a day of reckoning for its attack on our democracy, but for now it has won, and the magnitude of its victory increases with each petty and partisan turn in Washington’s most consequential drama.

Gary, it does not matter whether it was Russia who hacked Hillary's campaign manager's email or if it was a 400 pound hacker in his mother's basement. Putting the blame on a third party who "interfered with the elections" is denialism. The blame for this lost election must be put on Hillary Clinton for being involved in so much corruption and criminality.

Putting the blame on the person who accessed the emails is like putting blame on Snowden for exposing the crimes of the NSA. It really does not matter if Snowden did it on his own, or if Snowden was directed to do it by another party. The crimes of the NSA must be answered for.

Whoever provided the leaks to the public on the illegal NSA surveillance programs should be commended, even if it was Russia who exposed them. If it was Russia who exposed the crimes of the NSA to the American Public, then that makes Russia a friend to the American Public. Russia would be on the side of The American People for exposing the crimes by the US Government.

Don't you get it? If Russia provided greater transparency to the election by exposing the numerous crimes of Hillary Clinton, then that makes Russia our friend. Russia's actions should be CELEBRATED, as they are a whistleblower against a corrupt and criminal politician who has no business leading our country.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 03:00:08 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1503 on: May 20, 2017, 02:52:09 AM »
So, let us for a moment assume that Trump lost. Bernie's in office (let's face it, a hypothetical scenario in which Hillary wins is just too much), but the meme-conspiracy has already been started. The meme-conspiracy theorists believe that Russia tried to install Trump and failed.

Do you:
  • Ignore it because it no longer matters; after all, the Russian meddling wasn't such a big deal, and we should focus on the president instead
  • Press the matter further because Russian meddling is serious business and the American people clearly care and also it is very important and the Soviets did the same thing before and oh no
Choose wisely!

Of course the matter would be pressed further, because it would be of enormous importance to Russian-American relations. But this time it would focus on Russia, not Trump, because implicating a failed presidential candidate is of far less interest than implicating the actual president - just like implicating Hillary for any DNC shenanigans now is of far less interest than implicating her if she had won the election.

They are trying to make sure people like you stay on the reservation, Saddam. The DNC politically murdered your preferred candidate and you voted for Hillary anyway because Trump is a scary Russian puppet. It takes a lot of effort to keep that level of fearmongering up and the last thing they want is people to be reminded of the DNC corruption again.

There's obviously political reasons as to why Fox talks about DNC corruption nonstop and CNN talks about Trump and Russia nonstop. It's not rocket science, it doesn't even require a stretch of the imagination. Both parties are trying to destroy the other, and quite frankly, the Republicans are winning.

I vote based on my political beliefs, not on what I think of the party's leadership. And you know perfectly well that I didn't vote against Trump because of the alleged Russian connection.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1504 on: May 20, 2017, 09:09:49 AM »
Of course the matter would be pressed further, because it would be of enormous importance to Russian-American relations. But this time it would focus on Russia, not Trump, because implicating a failed presidential candidate is of far less interest than implicating the actual president - just like implicating Hillary for any DNC shenanigans now is of far less interest than implicating her if she had won the election.
Would you agree that treating something as serious but not a top priority is different from trying to completely ignore something and hoping it goes away?

I vote based on my political beliefs, not on what I think of the party's leadership. And you know perfectly well that I didn't vote against Trump because of the alleged Russian connection.
So you'd vote for a known corrupt candidate if he said the things you like to hear? That seems to be the name of the game in American politics these days, and look where that got you. This time, I'm talking about the state of both parties.

In other news, according to the left-wing rag called Vox, the meme-conspiracy is much more retarded than I gave it credit for: https://www.vox.com/world/2017/5/19/15561842/trump-russia-louise-mensch
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 09:35:02 AM by SexWarrior »
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1505 on: May 20, 2017, 01:05:03 PM »
In other news, according to the left-wing rag called Vox, the meme-conspiracy is much more retarded than I gave it credit for: https://www.vox.com/world/2017/5/19/15561842/trump-russia-louise-mensch

Breaking news there are wackjobs on the internet omg

Of course the writer of the article is talking about wild conspiracy theories that pop up on outlets like Twitter and Facebook, and says that these wild theories get in the way of the legitimate Russia investigation, which these wackjobs don't think is being covered enough in the mainstream media (for example, Bernie Sanders' status as a Russian agent has never been reported on CNN, to the best of my knowledge). It is not talking about the stories from confirmed sources showing up with dizzying pace in the mainstream media every day. So yeah I'd have to agree that there are crazy fringe conspiracy theorists out there on both sides. But it's a bit intellectually dishonest to prop this article up as an example of mainstream media being out of control when clearly that is not what the article is talking about, don't you think?
« Last Edit: May 20, 2017, 01:11:28 PM by Roundy »
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1506 on: May 20, 2017, 03:37:52 PM »
I vote based on my political beliefs, not on what I think of the party's leadership. And you know perfectly well that I didn't vote against Trump because of the alleged Russian connection.

That sounds more like "I vote based on the cover of the book, I don't care what's in it". In reality you vote for a party, not a candidate. The candidate is simply the face of it all.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1507 on: May 20, 2017, 03:43:22 PM »
Both of your parties are shit, so I don't envy having to vote in the States.  At least in Canada we have three shit parties.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1508 on: May 20, 2017, 05:06:21 PM »
Breaking news there are wackjobs on the internet omg
Yes, and some of them are very prominent journalists who end up propagating the meme-conspiracy to individuals like Saddam

But it's a bit intellectually dishonest to prop this article up as an example of mainstream media being out of control when clearly that is not what the article is talking about, don't you think?
And where the fuck did you get that from "the meme-conspiracy is much more retarded than I gave it credit for"?
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1509 on: May 20, 2017, 05:40:56 PM »
Of course the matter would be pressed further, because it would be of enormous importance to Russian-American relations. But this time it would focus on Russia, not Trump, because implicating a failed presidential candidate is of far less interest than implicating the actual president - just like implicating Hillary for any DNC shenanigans now is of far less interest than implicating her if she had won the election.
Would you agree that treating something as serious but not a top priority is different from trying to completely ignore something and hoping it goes away?

Sure. Look, I'm not happy with what happened with the DNC, and I don't want to see the issue "go away." I was responding to Rushy's claim that the Russian drama was invented to draw attention away from the DNC scandal, which is nonsensical.

Quote
I vote based on my political beliefs, not on what I think of the party's leadership. And you know perfectly well that I didn't vote against Trump because of the alleged Russian connection.
So you'd vote for a known corrupt candidate if he said the things you like to hear? That seems to be the name of the game in American politics these days, and look where that got you. This time, I'm talking about the state of both parties.

I didn't vote for Hillary because she said things I like to hear; I voted for her because the alternative was someone who was clearly unsuited for the office in virtually every single conceivable way and would undoubtedly turn out to be the worst president in the history of the nation.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1510 on: May 20, 2017, 05:46:37 PM »
undoubtedly turn out to be the worst president in the history of the nation.

This is said by so many people about so many different Presidents that I have no idea how you could possibly even say it without realizing it's complete nonsense.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1511 on: May 20, 2017, 05:53:05 PM »
Sure. Look, I'm not happy with what happened with the DNC, and I don't want to see the issue "go away."
So I take it you're unhappy with the media's insistence on ignoring it, and the strategies they employ to divert people's attention, yes?

I was responding to Rushy's claim that the Russian drama was invented to draw attention away from the DNC scandal, which is nonsensical.
Oh...
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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1512 on: May 20, 2017, 08:50:25 PM »
Breaking news there are wackjobs on the internet omg
Yes, and some of them are very prominent journalists who end up propagating the meme-conspiracy to individuals like Saddam

But it's a bit intellectually dishonest to prop this article up as an example of mainstream media being out of control when clearly that is not what the article is talking about, don't you think?
And where the fuck did you get that from "the meme-conspiracy is much more retarded than I gave it credit for"?

Well, I just assumed that you were tying this into the same argument you've been making for several pages, but if your whole point was that there are crazy people on the internet making up wild conspiracy theories, that too many people take seriously, well, thanks for reminding us of something we all already knew, I guess. Yes it certainly is retarded, welcome to the age of the internet. I think it's worth noting that these are fringe beliefs that expressly have nothing to do with what the mainstream media is reporting,  nonetheless. I'd hate for people reading this thread in the future to make the mistake of thinking you were actually trying to make a relevant point like I did. For what it's worth Saddam's part in this thread seems perfectly reasonable and I really don't see where there's evidence that he's been taken in by the "memespiracy". Which prominent journalists have been taking these ridiculous assertions seriously, and where did Saddam quote them?
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1513 on: May 21, 2017, 11:23:46 AM »
Well, I just assumed that you were tying this into the same argument you've been making for several pages
If you think I've been making one argument for several pages, then I have failed to explain myself sufficiently. If you tell me what you didn't understand, I'll do my best to clarify my thoughts.

but if your whole point was that there are crazy people on the internet making up wild conspiracy theories, that too many people take seriously, well, thanks for reminding us of something we all already knew, I guess
More or less; but you give people too much credit. For example, we've just found out that Saddam is a meme-conspiracy theorist, and garygreen at least has some sympathy towards the meme-conspiracy. Challenging this idiocy is important.

I think it's worth noting that these are fringe beliefs that expressly have nothing to do with what the mainstream media is reporting,  nonetheless.
I disagree, there is a connection between the two. The meme-conspiracy drives demand for Russia stories, and the mainstream media has to deliver. And, conversely, legitimate Russia stories can serve as a gateway to the meme-conspiracy. Now, we can't blame mainstream media for simply catering to demand, but squashing the meme-conspiracy would return some balance to media coverage.

I'll pass on addressing your "wow you're so irrelevant!!!!" ramble in too much detail. Sorry that you didn't like my point, hun.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 11:25:35 AM by SexWarrior »
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1514 on: May 21, 2017, 01:02:37 PM »
In other news, memes!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/us/politics/trump-russia-comey.html

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-appointment/

it's just memes guys Trump totally isn't trying to cover this up at all it's just memes
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1515 on: May 21, 2017, 03:40:21 PM »
In other news, memes!

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/05/19/us/politics/trump-russia-comey.html

http://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/donald-trump-robert-mueller-appointment/

it's just memes guys Trump totally isn't trying to cover this up at all it's just memes

It isn't memes, it's as Trump said, a witch hunt. A witch hunt based entirely on the machinations of a corrupt organization. Trump being not nearly as corrupted as the rest of Washington, they would obviously want him gone. Trump inserted himself into the game of thrones and now they're doing their best to squash him and anything he tries to do. It's especially interesting this time, since both parties dislike Trump, rather than just one or the other.

Trump isn't playing the game correctly, and so the other players want him kickbanned. He is the lolwut of Washington.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 03:42:08 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1516 on: May 21, 2017, 03:55:06 PM »
How do you know Trump isn't as corrupt?  I am not disagreeing necessarily, but that seems like something you don't really have any way of knowing.
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Offline honk

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1517 on: May 21, 2017, 04:09:36 PM »
Trump notoriously refused to release his tax returns or divest from his business interests, and continues to use his office to drum up more business for himself with his frequent, expensive trips to his own properties - much of those expenses being paid directly to Trump’s own businesses for things like catering and accommodation. Trump isn't just every bit as corrupt as any other politician, he also insults our intelligence by being so blatant about it. And while Republicans obviously aren't enthusiastic about him being the president, they aren't being nearly hard enough on him to indicate that they want him gone.

I do agree that Trump is the lolwut of Washington, though.
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Offline Rushy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1518 on: May 21, 2017, 04:29:53 PM »
How do you know Trump isn't as corrupt?  I am not disagreeing necessarily, but that seems like something you don't really have any way of knowing.

I don't, but as I've always said, the literal worse case scenario is that he's Hillary Clinton wearing a mask. I mean, seriously, the things that the media has come up with so far were things Hillary would have done anyway. Sell weapons to the Saudis? Oohhhhh nooooooo

Trump notoriously refused to release his tax returns or divest from his business interests, and continues to use his office to drum up more business for himself with his frequent, expensive trips to his own properties - much of those expenses being paid directly to Trump’s own businesses for things like catering and accommodation. Trump isn't just every bit as corrupt as any other politician, he also insults our intelligence by being so blatant about it. And while Republicans obviously aren't enthusiastic about him being the president, they aren't being nearly hard enough on him to indicate that they want him gone.

I do agree that Trump is the lolwut of Washington, though.

"Corruption is okay as long as the politicians simultaneously insist they're not corrupt."

But Saddam, why not insult your intelligence? If Trump is as corrupt as everyone thinks he is, then he is proof that you can be corrupt AND obvious about it with near impunity in the modern day US government. I mean, hell, congressmen voted themselves into an exception to insider trading laws. They are corrupt to the core but you're fine with it as long as someone like Trump doesn't rock the boat.

Also, yes, Republicans do want him gone. They'd much rather have President Pence, a run of the mill career conservative, over Trump.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 04:31:52 PM by Rushy »

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Trump
« Reply #1519 on: May 21, 2017, 06:12:39 PM »
Well, I just assumed that you were tying this into the same argument you've been making for several pages
If you think I've been making one argument for several pages, then I have failed to explain myself sufficiently. If you tell me what you didn't understand, I'll do my best to clarify my thoughts.

but if your whole point was that there are crazy people on the internet making up wild conspiracy theories, that too many people take seriously, well, thanks for reminding us of something we all already knew, I guess
More or less; but you give people too much credit. For example, we've just found out that Saddam is a meme-conspiracy theorist, and garygreen at least has some sympathy towards the meme-conspiracy. Challenging this idiocy is important.

I think it's worth noting that these are fringe beliefs that expressly have nothing to do with what the mainstream media is reporting,  nonetheless.
I disagree, there is a connection between the two. The meme-conspiracy drives demand for Russia stories, and the mainstream media has to deliver. And, conversely, legitimate Russia stories can serve as a gateway to the meme-conspiracy. Now, we can't blame mainstream media for simply catering to demand, but squashing the meme-conspiracy would return some balance to media coverage.

I'll pass on addressing your "wow you're so irrelevant!!!!" ramble in too much detail. Sorry that you didn't like my point, hun.

Obviously I've missed something and I realized that almost as soon as I posted. Apologies. I'll have to look back through the thread because I still don't recall Saddam repeating any of the kind of wildly speculative conspiracy theories referred to in the article, but I guess it wouldn't overly surprise me if he has.
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