[Jura-Glenlivet]

So…..the reason I should go to church, get down on my knees and basically beg for forgiveness for sins I don’t feel I have committed, is to hedge my bets? That’s the best you’ve got?

What if I get the wrong god? How do I gauge if Islam isn’t right, or Hinduism isn’t true and I’m insulting Kali by idolising a man nailed to some wood? What if Odin is the man, and he just backed out because he thought the invention of gunpowder devalued the applicants for Valhalla? What if the bird is the word?

I’m with Andruszkow, history is written by the victors, Christianity/Abrahamic religion has spread through the world by conquest and repression. We only get one point of view, Lucifer could be the Che Guevara of the celestial realms, the “Bringer of light” doesn’t sound like a name of the evil one so perhaps Hell aint’ a bad place to be?

However, for me an absence of evidence is evidence of absence, religion, the child of the evolutionary wiring in our brains for pattern recognition and wishful thinking to stave off the long dark sleep.
I shan’t take your bet, I would rather have my convictions and plead my case (I don’t think I will have to), than sneak in having played “just in case” all my life, get some backbone

[Love]

"“just in case” all my life, get some backbone"  They always have to get their little jabs in.   None of them ever show any wit.

[George]

Pascal's Wager is an extremely weak argument.  There are too many options beyond the simple belief/non-belief dichotomy, as well as the assumption that belief itself is the most important thing to a deity.

[andruszkow]

How do I know for sure, which of the ~4200 different religions I should practice? It's just, I don't want to piss off the other 4199 God's and go to hell. All 4199 versions of them.

Out of 4200 religions, you just happened to be brought up in the only true one? Impressive. And what a lucky coincidence as well, even though I thought things happening by chance were frowned upon by FES.

[cel]

So…..the reason I should go to church, get down on my knees and basically beg for forgiveness for sins I don’t feel I have committed, is to hedge my bets? That’s the best you’ve got?

What if I get the wrong god? How do I gauge if Islam isn’t right, or Hinduism isn’t true and I’m insulting Kali by idolising a man nailed to some wood? What if Odin is the man, and he just backed out because he thought the invention of gunpowder devalued the applicants for Valhalla? What if the bird is the word?

I’m with Andruszkow, history is written by the victors, Christianity/Abrahamic religion has spread through the world by conquest and repression. We only get one point of view, Lucifer could be the Che Guevara of the celestial realms, the “Bringer of light” doesn’t sound like a name of the evil one so perhaps Hell aint’ a bad place to be?

However, for me an absence of evidence is evidence of absence, religion, the child of the evolutionary wiring in our brains for pattern recognition and wishful thinking to stave off the long dark sleep.
I shan’t take your bet, I would rather have my convictions and plead my case (I don’t think I will have to), than sneak in having played “just in case” all my life, get some backbone

If life or your life is full of "ifs", then it's best to settle for Big "IFs" that go for something good. At least this way can give you chance... As you said, everything dies, well, does that exempt you? If not, it's wise to choose the "IFs" that can give you at least one life more...

[andruszkow]

So…..the reason I should go to church, get down on my knees and basically beg for forgiveness for sins I don’t feel I have committed, is to hedge my bets? That’s the best you’ve got?

What if I get the wrong god? How do I gauge if Islam isn’t right, or Hinduism isn’t true and I’m insulting Kali by idolising a man nailed to some wood? What if Odin is the man, and he just backed out because he thought the invention of gunpowder devalued the applicants for Valhalla? What if the bird is the word?

I’m with Andruszkow, history is written by the victors, Christianity/Abrahamic religion has spread through the world by conquest and repression. We only get one point of view, Lucifer could be the Che Guevara of the celestial realms, the “Bringer of light” doesn’t sound like a name of the evil one so perhaps Hell aint’ a bad place to be?

However, for me an absence of evidence is evidence of absence, religion, the child of the evolutionary wiring in our brains for pattern recognition and wishful thinking to stave off the long dark sleep.
I shan’t take your bet, I would rather have my convictions and plead my case (I don’t think I will have to), than sneak in having played “just in case” all my life, get some backbone

If life or your life is full of "ifs", then it's best to settle for Big "IFs" that go for something good. At least this way can give you chance... As you said, everything dies, well, does that exempt you? If not, it's wise to choose the "IFs" that can give you at least one life more...

At least you did a post without using the words "truth" and "seeker" in it. That makes me believe in something, at least.

[TotesNotReptilian]

So…..the reason I should go to church, get down on my knees and basically beg for forgiveness for sins I don’t feel I have committed, is to hedge my bets? That’s the best you’ve got?

What if I get the wrong god? How do I gauge if Islam isn’t right, or Hinduism isn’t true and I’m insulting Kali by idolising a man nailed to some wood? What if Odin is the man, and he just backed out because he thought the invention of gunpowder devalued the applicants for Valhalla? What if the bird is the word?

I’m with Andruszkow, history is written by the victors, Christianity/Abrahamic religion has spread through the world by conquest and repression. We only get one point of view, Lucifer could be the Che Guevara of the celestial realms, the “Bringer of light” doesn’t sound like a name of the evil one so perhaps Hell aint’ a bad place to be?

However, for me an absence of evidence is evidence of absence, religion, the child of the evolutionary wiring in our brains for pattern recognition and wishful thinking to stave off the long dark sleep.
I shan’t take your bet, I would rather have my convictions and plead my case (I don’t think I will have to), than sneak in having played “just in case” all my life, get some backbone

If life or your life is full of "ifs", then it's best to settle for Big "IFs" that go for something good. At least this way can give you chance... As you said, everything dies, well, does that exempt you? If not, it's wise to choose the "IFs" that can give you at least one life more...

As logical as it might seem, I don't think hedging your bet is a very Biblical reason for believing in God.

[İntikam]

I have no problem with atheists except;

They are liars, rogue, trickster, cheater, blackleg hominids; and a few "real victims".

Atheists are not really atheists.

A survey revealed as, actually 60 percent of atheists believing God. nevertheless they are defined themselves as atheist. because; most of them are victims of perception operation, and the small part is perception operator.

[andruszkow]

I have no problem with atheists except;

They are liars, rogue, trickster, cheater, blackleg hominids; and a few "real victims".

Atheists are not really atheists.

A survey revealed as, actually 60 percent of atheists believing God. nevertheless they are defined themselves as atheist. because; most of them are victims of perception operation, and the small part is perception operator.

Statistics say that 85% of statistics are made up on the spot. See what I did there?

[Martin Luther II]

I agree. Pascal's Wager is a sorry excuse to believe in God. In order to TRULY be saved by the Sacrifice of Jesus Christ, one must receive grace. By Grace Alone, Through Faith Alone, In Scripture Alone. We have not the power in ourselves to turn toward Christ w/o his giving us the Grace to do so. We can wish to do so, but w/o Grace...

[Custard_Cream]

I'm a flat earther and a atheist buddy :-)

[Norr]

Short answer: Nothing is wrong with Atheism, there are however many things wrong with individuals. Atheist or otherwise.

[CableDawg]

Now, I assume that being an atheist you are a FEer yourself?

What does one have to do with the other?

Well, RE science has gotten itself into a bit of a pickle, imho.  In explaining the wonders of the universe down to almost the minutest detail, you've created a number of variables that, if even off slightly, would not have allowed life to exist (no, I'm not talking about the so-called "Goldilocks zone", you guys have covered that one brilliantly; what I speak of is more a "Goldilocks universe", a universe that was juuuuuuuust right for life to exist).

It just makes much more sense for such a universe to have been created, because otherwise you're looking at a statistically impossible coincidence that things turned out so perfect for life.  And if it was created, there is a creator, QED.

So it really makes no sense for me to be a REer and not believe in God.

On the other hand, FET is so wide-open and unexplored, its deepest mysteries have yet to be revealed.  It may come about that after exhaustive research into the origins of the universe we will run into the same issue.  But there's no reason to assume it at this point, so it's perfectly reasonable to be a FEer and also be an atheist.

Do I REALLY need a religion to be moral? What If I don't agree with any religious moral principles (homosexuality, gender equality, etc.)?

I see that you were probably a "one and done", but I thought this was worth addressing too in case you do come back.  It's easy to be religious and disagree with some of your religion's doctrines about morality.  I know lots of people who are able to achieve this.  All you have to do is turn your brain off and pretend it makes sense to pick and choose what you want to believe out of whichever book it is that you believe in that was supposedly transcribed by an infallible God.  That's all!

And you make the mistake that you can apply statistics/probability to a sample size of 1.

That we are able to have this discussion proves that our universe, far from being in the "goldilocks zone" and statistically impossible, is in fact in the realm of 100% possibility, that is to say actuality.

My challenge to you is for you to produce evidence of these other universes which proves our universe to be a statistical impossibility.

[CableDawg]

Hate is not a human "failing". The root of hate is fear, is fear a human failing?

Socialized religions are non-moral, that is, they contain both moral and immoral individuals. Religions are not God, they are man's interpretation of God and their frailties and inequities do not disprove the existence of God. The proof of God is that man is capable of love, belief in God does not require the abandonment of reason.

To believe in God is not necessarily driven by a fear of death, it can simply be a belief that something exists beyond man.

There is a preponderance of evidence that the earth is round. In order for it be flat there would have to be millenniums of liars along with photos, first hand accounts, satellites in orbit, etc. that would have to be ignored or otherwise explained to accept a flat world. Socialized religions are based on faith and faith is blind acceptance of the unknown. For this reason individuals who live by faith are more willing to accept a flat world.

R

Proof of god is that man is capable of love?

I love tacos.  Which god does that prove?

[CableDawg]

It's for the children.

Not really, for me, it's for the unwise or shall we say, fools. My reason? simple. If you choose to be atheist, well, religion, say christianity, teaches a life (heavenly life is more attractive than that of hell) after this earthly life. Now, if this next life is indeed true, then unbeliever, atheist by choice, will go to hell and the believer can have that heavenly next life (well, assuming he/she is good christian of course    ); and if it is not true, well, the believer and the atheist both end in nothing. Who is wiser then? Certainly, the believer. Let's just be wiser in making choices like this...

Hell, you say. Now, this is God's version of it all. You know, the creator of everything, except hell. Until I've read Satan's side of the story, the Bible is just God pointing fingers.

The problem with religion is the absence of logic. From the believers that is. Adam and Eve populated earth, in all our colors, shapes and sizes, yet there's a surprisingly small amount of  people showing the symptoms of being inbred. This is just one of the humorous flaws.

Well, of course, you can say all you want to say against God and the Bible. You can despise and condemn religion with all your might. You really can. No one will prevent you from doing this. hehehe.... but the problem is everyone dies. You die. And when you die, this is the time when anyone, with or without believing God, can confirm in real time whether this "next life after this life" is true. My point is this. Believing or not believing a God out there who tells us that next life exists, we all gonna DIE. Unless you're also a God and 100% sure of where you're going to after this life, you'll be wise enough to choose to be atheist. Get what I mean? But you are not. You cannot even stop or exempt yourself from dying. If you don't die, well, I'll believe in you and likewise be an atheist, but you do die...    Well, who's wiser then in making a choice? the one who is open-mined opting for a chance to go on living a good next life or the one who is too narrow-minded opting for nothing, but only this present life? If you're a gambler, and you know you'll lose no matter what you do and how many times you bet, and still you keep on betting, well, what are you? simple, a fool... a wise gambler bets with a mindset that he'll win... meaning, hoping, believing, and taking a chance to win. Just like that, we take the same chance to go on living after this life.... well, i have no problem with your choice, you opted to live only once, well, good luck... it's your choice...

Let's follow your logic...

You believe that Jesus died and was raised to heaven.

You believe that True Christians™ will also raised to heaven when they die.

This makes them exactly the same as their god.

Therefore they are, each of them, gods.

Do you have fervent belief in yourself?

[CableDawg]

, it's wise to choose the "IFs" that can give you at least one life more...

You say this as if (BIG IF here) it's a foregone conclusion that your particular belief system is the one which will give you at least one more life.

A question that comes to mind...

What kind of person are you, really, when the only thing that forces you into moral behavior is the THREAT of having your forever life taken away from you?  In case you didn't notice, I doubly emphasized threat because that's all religion really is.  A threat.  It's not a promise of anything.  It's a threat used to make people behave in a certain manner.

This is, I believe, what sets Atheist apart from and above the religious.  We don't need the ancient threats of an ancient, ignorant culture to force us into moral behavior.

[Love]

from cable dog: "This is, I believe, what sets Atheist apart from and above the religious.  We don't need the ancient threats of an ancient, ignorant culture to force us into moral behavior."   You atheists are an inspiration to us all!

[Max_Almond]

Much as I'd love to, I'm not going to read everything in this thread, but instead answer the main question as it's presented (even though it was really a question about whether an atheist can be moral - answer: "yes").

What is the problem with atheism?

On the one hand, no problem - it all depends on how it's presented.

Faith or knowledge of 'the spiritual' (i.e., God) is an experience. (Faith that is not experiential is mere belief; an idea of what one wants to be true, but doesn't know for sure).

The atheist in general seems to say: "I haven't experienced something (that sounds outlandish (to me)) and I know for a fact it can't possibly be true for anyone."

That doesn't even make logical sense.

There may also be a predilection for a hang-up on pure materialism, and on what can be physically measured and seen.

So no problem with a humble atheism, which says: "I haven't experienced any of that, and it sounds a bit far out to me, but I suppose that doesn't mean it's impossible."

And perhaps an even more humble atheism would seek to find out for themselves.

But who's got time for that?

[Max_Almond]

Other problems with atheism:

i) A failure to recognise their atheism as actually being anti-Christianity/anti-Bible. The atheist has no belief in God. God is not defined by The Bible. The Bible is merely a collection of some ancient people's ideas about life and God.

Thinking you have disproven God by showing the fallacies in The Bible is like pointing to an English high street at 11pm on a Friday night and thinking you have disproven the possibility of intelligent human life.

ii) Not knowing the subject well enough. A lot of atheists don't really have a well-rounded view of religion and spirituality, and yet feel qualified to critique it.

iii) Not understanding that God is an experience.

iv) Arguing against "an old man in the sky pointing his finger at people and judging them".

Whose idea of God is this? Absolutely the original strawman.

v) Repeating ideas they learned as teenagers - "Jesus didn't exist!" "It's like believing in Father Christmas!" "People just believe cos they're afraid of death!" - and not updating them as their brains grow.

Probably there are more. But ultimately I suppose there's no problem with atheism. Humans are the problem. We're proud and stubborn and lacking in loving kindness, and that's irrespective of our beliefs and ideas, whether religious, areligious, theistic, atheistic, or otherwise.

The kind atheist who seeks to master his own mind and be a peaceful and loving presence in the world is worth far more than the most pious and devout 'believer' who hurts others and themselves.

Indeed, an atheist may even have a greater 'faith' than a theist - though they would probably never agree to it.

That's all.

[ElTrancy]

Other problems with atheism:

i) A failure to recognise the atheism as anti-Christianity/anti-Bible. The atheist has no belief in God. God is not defined by The Bible. The Bible is merely a collection of some ancient people's ideas about life and God.

Thinking you have debunked God by showing the fallacies in The Bible is like pointing to an English high street at 11pm on a Friday night and thinking you have proven the impossibility intelligent human life.

ii) Not knowing the subject well enough. A lot of atheists don't really have a well-rounded view of religion and spirituality, and yet feel qualified to critique it.

iii) Not understanding that God is an experience.

iv) Arguing against "an old man in the sky pointing his finger at people and judging them".

Whose idea of God is this? Absolutely the original strawman.

v) Repeating ideas they learned as teenagers - "Jesus didn't even exist!" "Do you believe in Father Christmas too?" - and not updating them as their brains grew.

Probably there are more. But ultimately I suppose there's no problem with atheism. Humans are the problem. We're proud and stubborn and lacking in loving kindness, and that's irrespective of our beliefs, whether religious, areligious, theistic, atheistic, or otherwise.

The kind atheist who seeks to master his own mind is worth far more in the eyes of God than the most pious and devout 'believer' who hurts others and themselves.

Indeed, an atheist may even have a greater 'faith' than a theist - though they would never agree to it.

That's all.

Anti-Christianity? Anti-Bible? We would be anti-everything, including Satanism, and Judaism. You literally just contradicted every religious person I've ever met. I do know the subject very well. God is an experience...makes sense (not really). You just made a strawman. Jesus may have been a person, did he do the things they said he did? If so, why have we never found something (to my knowledge) written by him? None of us have faith, please don't say we have "faith" when referring to a god