Offline model 29

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #20 on: May 30, 2016, 06:14:49 PM »
An observation was provided:
Real-world observations prove otherwise.  Viewed head-on the entire time they appear tiny and grow larger.

Where is your evidence?
Driving at night on a straight stretch with oncoming traffic.  I guess you have never done this.  You should try it sometime.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #21 on: May 30, 2016, 11:49:28 PM »
An observation was provided:
Real-world observations prove otherwise.  Viewed head-on the entire time they appear tiny and grow larger.

Where is your evidence?
Driving at night on a straight stretch with oncoming traffic.  I guess you have never done this.  You should try it sometime.

I provided evidence. You did not.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #22 on: May 31, 2016, 12:20:00 AM »
An observation was provided:
Real-world observations prove otherwise.  Viewed head-on the entire time they appear tiny and grow larger.

Where is your evidence?
Driving at night on a straight stretch with oncoming traffic.  I guess you have never done this.  You should try it sometime.

I provided evidence. You did not.

you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.

good work.  however, this does nothing to support your absurd claim that light sources appear brighter and larger as they recede from an observer.
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2016, 12:27:57 AM »
you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.

good work.  however, this does nothing to support your absurd claim that light sources appear brighter and larger as they recede from an observer.

The entire highway is at an angle to the observer, they are not approaching head on.

If headlights really shrink appropriately into the distance, where are all of the pictures which show headlights as pinpricks in the distance?

« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 12:32:12 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2016, 01:15:57 AM »
you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.
The entire highway is at an angle to the observer, they are not approaching head on.

I made a simple diagram to explain his point. Car #2 is closer, but the camera isn't being directly illuminated by the headlights. Car #1 is farther, but is directly illuminating the camera.



If headlights really shrink appropriately into the distance, where are all of the pictures which show headlights as pinpricks in the distance?



That picture is a perfect example. Did you not look at it before you posted it? The headlights in the front are about 7 to 9 pixels in diameter. The headlights in the middle are about 3-5 pixels in diameter. The headlights in the back are about 2 pixels in diameter.

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2016, 01:29:26 AM »
it's genuinely stunning how obtuse you are, tom.  this isn't that hard to get.


If headlights really shrink appropriately into the distance, where are all of the pictures which show headlights as pinpricks in the distance?

look at the many tiny and dim lights at the back of the line of traffic. 

the inverse square law is extremely well-understood: http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0031-9120/47/2/174/meta#ped398200non5


it's super important to photographers, for example


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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #26 on: May 31, 2016, 01:33:52 AM »
you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.
The entire highway is at an angle to the observer, they are not approaching head on.

I made a simple diagram to explain his point. Car #2 is closer, but the camera isn't being directly illuminated by the headlights. Car #1 is farther, but is directly illuminating the camera.

When the sun is visible it is always directly illuminating your eyes. So it is bigger.

If headlights really shrink appropriately into the distance, where are all of the pictures which show headlights as pinpricks in the distance?



The headlights in the back are clearly larger than they should be.

Look at the tail lights. They are all the same size down the highway for as far as the eye can see. In the distance they grow to huge proportions!

« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 01:36:04 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #27 on: May 31, 2016, 01:34:52 AM »
it's genuinely stunning how obtuse you are, tom.  this isn't that hard to get.

The sun doesn't have that problem. Therefore the enlarging effect applies.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #28 on: May 31, 2016, 01:58:01 AM »
I made a simple diagram to explain his point. Car #2 is closer, but the camera isn't being directly illuminated by the headlights. Car #1 is farther, but is directly illuminating the camera.
When the sun is visible it is always directly illuminating your eyes. So it is bigger.

That diagram had nothing to do with the sun. It was used to explain why the cars in front look dimmer in the photograph.

Imagine you have 2 flashlights. One is very close, but pointed away from you. The other one is farther away, but pointed directly at you.

Tom Bishop: Wow! the farther flashlight is brighter!!! Lights must get brighter as they get further away!!!
Everyone else: Umm... the closer flashlight isn't even pointed at you. Of course it looks dimmer.
Tom Bishop: But the sun is always pointed at you!! Therefore my point is proven!!
Everyone else: ???

The headlights in the back are clearly larger than they should be.

How large do you think they "should be"? My point is that they do actually get smaller, by a significant amount. 9 pixels -> 2 pixels.

I will concede one point: the headlights appear bigger relative to the cars they are attached to. This is due to glare. When photographing the sun, we can eliminate glare from the equation. See my post in the debate thread for further details.

Quote
Look at the tail lights. They are all the same size down the highway for as far as the eye can see. In the distance they grow to huge proportions!

Those are called break lights. The cars in the back are going into a turn. Most cars press their breaks when they are about to turn.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 02:15:14 AM by TotesNotReptilian »

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #29 on: May 31, 2016, 02:10:18 AM »
The bottom line is that you really need to learn to control outside variables when testing a theory. All these pictures of highways have a lot of outside variables that can influence the result. (And yet they STILL don't support your theory!)

To prove a theory, you need to design an experiment that keeps all variables the same except the one you want to test.

For example, if you want to prove that "lights stay the same size regardless of distance", you need to make sure all variables remain the same except distance.

Experiment: Grab a flashlight. Walk outside. Stick the flashlight on a table/chair/tree/bush at eye level. Make sure it is pointing towards you. Walk backwards. Observe the size of the flashlight at various distances.

I guarantee that the flashlight will not appear to stay the same size. Case closed.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #30 on: May 31, 2016, 02:11:30 AM »
That diagram had nothing to do with the sun. It was used to explain why the cars in front look dimmer in the photograph.

Imagine you have 2 flashlights. One is very close, but pointed away from you. The other one is farther away, but pointed directly at you.

Tom Bishop: Wow! the farther flashlight is brighter!!! Lights must get brighter as they get further away!!!
Everyone else: Umm... the closer flashlight isn't even pointed at you. Of course it looks dimmer.
Tom Bishop: But the sun is always pointed at you!! Therefore my point is proven!!
Everyone else: ???/


The sun doesn't have the problem of unidirectional bulbs.

Quote
How large do you think they "should be"? My point is that they do actually get smaller, by a significant amount. 9 pixels -> 2 pixels.

I will concede one point: the headlights appear bigger relative to the cars they are attached to. This is due to glare. When photographing the sun, we can eliminate glare from the equation. See my post in the debate thread for further details.

Whatever you want to call it, it is an effect which magnifies the light.

Quote
Quote
Look at the tail lights. They are all the same size down the highway for as far as the eye can see. In the distance they grow to huge proportions!

Those are called break lights. The cars going in the back are going into a turn. Most cars press their breaks when they are about to turn.

The tail lights are clearly about the same size down the entirety of highway, even if the headlights are not due to angles. This shows that the effect is possible.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 02:15:05 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #31 on: May 31, 2016, 02:16:34 AM »
The bottom line is that you really need to learn to control outside variables when testing a theory. All these pictures of highways have a lot of outside variables that can influence the result. (And yet they STILL don't support your theory!)

To prove a theory, you need to design an experiment that keeps all variables the same except the one you want to test.

For example, if you want to prove that "lights stay the same size regardless of distance", you need to make sure all variables remain the same except distance.

Experiment: Grab a flashlight. Walk outside. Stick the flashlight on a table/chair/tree/bush at eye level. Make sure it is pointing towards you. Walk backwards. Observe the size of the flashlight at various distances.

I guarantee that the flashlight will not appear to stay the same size. Case closed.

I provided evidence of the odd effect which allows light sources to remain the same size into the distance. We have two pictures which demonstrate the effect. The first picture show headlights that remain the same size, and the second picture shows tail lights that remain the same size. You have not provided any evidence for your position.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #32 on: May 31, 2016, 02:28:08 AM »
it's genuinely stunning how obtuse you are, tom.  this isn't that hard to get.

The sun doesn't have that problem. Therefore the enlarging effect applies.

right.  the sun isn't a headlight.  it shines light in all directions.  the angle from which you view it makes no difference.

the reason the headlights appear brighter in the distance is that they are pointed more directly at the camera.  i thought my diagram was quite clear.  i don't get how you are failing to grasp that a directional light will appear brighter if it is pointing at you rather than away from you.

you could post literally thousands of images taken from cameras tens of feet above curvy roads, but that doesn't demonstrate your point since those cameras are tens of feet above curvy roads.  the angles are what invalidate the thing you call evidence.  if you want to conduct an experiment this way, then you must keep your orientation to the light source constant. 

All measurements are experiments. Your experiment does not control for the angle of orientation of the light source. It does not conform to the scientific method, which demands that trials are controlled. Trying to pass off something uncontrolled and unscientific as scientific is reprehensible. I would suggest that you go back to middle school and learn some science.

also i posted several empirical demonstrations of the inverse square law.  it's not an open question.  it's a very, very well-understood fact.  it's an important fact for people who use it literally every single day of their lives, like photographers.

just saying "no this photo proves that i am right" over and over again isn't persuasive.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 02:40:52 AM by garygreen »
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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #33 on: May 31, 2016, 02:41:52 AM »
I have provided evidence showing that it is possible for a light source to remain the same size as it goes into the distance. Two examples were provided. The lights in the distance are clearly larger than they should be.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #34 on: May 31, 2016, 02:46:41 AM »
I have provided evidence showing that it is possible for a light source to remain the same size as it goes into the distance. Two examples were provided. The lights in the distance are clearly larger than they should be.

as i stated already, you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.

the sun is not a directional source of light.  you have not provided any evidence that it should behave like headlights viewed from above a curved road.
I have visited from prestigious research institutions of the highest caliber, to which only our administrator holds with confidence.

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #35 on: May 31, 2016, 02:55:28 AM »
The bottom line is that you really need to learn to control outside variables when testing a theory. All these pictures of highways have a lot of outside variables that can influence the result. (And yet they STILL don't support your theory!)

To prove a theory, you need to design an experiment that keeps all variables the same except the one you want to test.

For example, if you want to prove that "lights stay the same size regardless of distance", you need to make sure all variables remain the same except distance.

Experiment: Grab a flashlight. Walk outside. Stick the flashlight on a table/chair/tree/bush at eye level. Make sure it is pointing towards you. Walk backwards. Observe the size of the flashlight at various distances.


I guarantee that the flashlight will not appear to stay the same size. Case closed.

I provided evidence of the odd effect which allows light sources to remain the same size into the distance. We have two pictures which demonstrate the effect. The first picture show headlights that remain the same size, and the second picture shows tail lights that remain the same size. You have not provided any evidence for your position.

As has been stated numerous times, neither image supports your theory. The headlights in BOTH images get smaller. The tail lights in the second image start off so small that it is hard to tell either way. They start off at about 3 pixels. Decrease to about 2 pixels. Increase back to 3 pixels when the break lights come on. Then decrease back to about 2 pixels. The color of the taillights also gets darker. Literally nothing you stated about those images was true.

Please reread my post. I highlighted the important parts that you seemed to ignore.

Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #36 on: May 31, 2016, 03:07:38 AM »
The sun doesn't have the problem of unidirectional bulbs.

You are using the photos as proof of your theory. Not the sun. The fact that some of the lights in the photos aren't even pointed at the camera invalidates them as useful proof.

Quote
Whatever you want to call it, it is an effect which magnifies the light.

No. Glare does not magnify light. (See garygreen's video on the inverse square law).

Glare effects how cameras capture the light in an image, and it effects how we perceive light with our eyes. However, when taking a picture of the sun we can eliminate glare. I have stated this multiple times, and you still continue to ignore it.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2016, 03:14:57 AM by TotesNotReptilian »

Offline model 29

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #37 on: May 31, 2016, 03:12:17 AM »
The headlights in the back are clearly larger than they should be.
In the second picture, they still appear smaller in the distance.  Does the light from the individual headlights appear a little larger than their actual size?  Yes.  Do you know how camera exposure affects these kinds of things?

Quote
Look at the tail lights. They are all the same size down the highway for as far as the eye can see. In the distance they grow to huge proportions!
Nope, those also appear smaller than the taillights closer to the camera.  Look closer.

The sun doesn't have that problem. Therefore the enlarging effect applies.
Does the sun act like a spotlight, or does it act like (or is) a sphere shining in all directions?

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: How the Sun sets on a Flat Earth
« Reply #38 on: May 31, 2016, 07:19:20 AM »
you have provided excellent evidence that a directional light source appears brighter when viewed head-on rather than at an angle.

good work.  however, this does nothing to support your absurd claim that light sources appear brighter and larger as they recede from an observer.

The entire highway is at an angle to the observer, they are not approaching head on.

If headlights really shrink appropriately into the distance, where are all of the pictures which show headlights as pinpricks in the distance?
The closest headlights do not show much glare as they are dipped and are considerably below the camera.
At first the lights appear not to change in size much as the glare gets worse,
but from middle distance to the farthest the apparent size of the lights does definitely get much smaller, without some calculation it is impossible to guess if is appropriate.

But, the moon behaves in exactly the same way! I have taken a series of photos of the moon with quite a "long lens" (1,600 mm) of the moon at various elevations from quite near the horizon to around 70° and the apparent size stays nearly the same apparent size (at a bit over 0.5°) over the whole range.

I can't post them yet, as I am in hospital at present (nothing to worry about), just that I don't have access to the photos or data.

But definitely, the moon stays the same size excluding the tiny increase expected from being slightly closer when overhead.
Not only that, the detail of craters is just as obvious near the horizon as overhead. There is no glare to obscure things as with the sun.
I did not take the following so I have no scales.

On Thursday, December 15, 2005, the full Moon will be
just about at the most northerly declination it can ever attain.
S&T: Rick Fienberg.
From: The Highest Full-frontal Overhead
   

Moon near horizon from Moon at Night

I can't vouch for these photos, but I am sure you have seen enough like this in real lifelife.