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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #20 on: April 07, 2016, 12:46:31 AM »

If he wanted to attack the authority on Flat Earth Theory, he would. I doubt anyone here really cares if he attacks some random poorly informed Youtube video author from that other society.

I doubt anyone who read Rowbotham's book would mistake him for an authority.

I doubt that there is anyone other than the FES or this website who has ever heard of Rowbotham, much less if they had and had read his book would mistake him for an authority on anything.

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Offline markjo

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2016, 02:05:23 AM »
I came to this site because I am a writer of Speculative Fiction (AKA Science Fiction) I was researching land marks on the side of the moon we don't see for a new book I'm writing, when I saw a link that made no sense; Flat Earth.
Come now.  As an author, you should know that truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2016, 10:39:26 AM »
I came to this site because I am a writer of Speculative Fiction (AKA Science Fiction) I was researching land marks on the side of the moon we don't see for a new book I'm writing, when I saw a link that made no sense; Flat Earth.
Come now.  As an author, you should know that truth is stranger than fiction because fiction has to make sense.

All too true. Doing research for my story starting out on the Moon is the one that had me stumbling on to FE. In one scene, a major one no less, I was challenged about the distance someone could fall and not be at least severally injured. The math helped. In another one a Beta Reader questioned how a generational ship with each deck spinning so each deck was 1g. "How can you go from one deck the next?" That one question was repeated by other BRs and I spend the better part of a week going over the math and adjusting the circumference of decks to make it all work out.

You can get away with things as long as you don't push it to hard. But if you do, you WILL get your butt handed to you and good luck with selling the story.

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #23 on: April 07, 2016, 12:57:11 PM »

Not in the mood to be redirected to another website. I suggest you explain yourself or drop the subject.

I wonder how then maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place without GPS and without the concept of a round earth.
I know you are not in the mood to listen to facts but "maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place" with a clear concept of the Globe Earth!
Quote from: unknown to me at least
IN 1492
In fourteen hundred ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

He had three ships and left from Spain;
He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

He sailed by night; he sailed by day;
He used the stars to find his way.

A compass also helped him know
How to find the way to go.
And Columbus knew the earth was a sphere[1] and hoped to find the East Indies by going west. His only trouble is that he knew the distance going east, but had has circumference of the earth "a bit out" and would have run out of food and others supplies long before getting to the East Indies!
Go learn some history and don't try to rewrite it it suit your own indoctrination!

[1] You might say he could have "circumnavigated" the "UN map" world, but that was not thought of at the time. There is no question that the earth has been considered a Globe since some centuries BC! Even in other cultures the globe seems to certainly considered.
Quote
A terrestrial globe (Kura-i-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kubla Khan's Chinese court in 1267.
from: Spherical Earth, Islamic Astronomy

Evaluate your sources and provide evidence of what you're telling.

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2016, 01:39:27 PM »

Not in the mood to be redirected to another website. I suggest you explain yourself or drop the subject.

I wonder how then maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place without GPS and without the concept of a round earth.
I know you are not in the mood to listen to facts but "maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place" with a clear concept of the Globe Earth!
Quote from: unknown to me at least
IN 1492
In fourteen hundred ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

He had three ships and left from Spain;
He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

He sailed by night; he sailed by day;
He used the stars to find his way.

A compass also helped him know
How to find the way to go.
And Columbus knew the earth was a sphere[1] and hoped to find the East Indies by going west. His only trouble is that he knew the distance going east, but had has circumference of the earth "a bit out" and would have run out of food and others supplies long before getting to the East Indies!
Go learn some history and don't try to rewrite it it suit your own indoctrination!

[1] You might say he could have "circumnavigated" the "UN map" world, but that was not thought of at the time. There is no question that the earth has been considered a Globe since some centuries BC! Even in other cultures the globe seems to certainly considered.
Quote
A terrestrial globe (Kura-i-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kubla Khan's Chinese court in 1267.
from: Spherical Earth, Islamic Astronomy

Evaluate your sources and provide evidence of what you're telling.

Why won't you point out what is wrong with his post? Wait, you know there is nothing wrong and just want to side track him for a while

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #25 on: April 07, 2016, 02:19:04 PM »

Not in the mood to be redirected to another website. I suggest you explain yourself or drop the subject.

I wonder how then maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place without GPS and without the concept of a round earth.
I know you are not in the mood to listen to facts but "maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place" with a clear concept of the Globe Earth!
Quote from: unknown to me at least
IN 1492
In fourteen hundred ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

He had three ships and left from Spain;
He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

He sailed by night; he sailed by day;
He used the stars to find his way.

A compass also helped him know
How to find the way to go.
And Columbus knew the earth was a sphere[1] and hoped to find the East Indies by going west. His only trouble is that he knew the distance going east, but had has circumference of the earth "a bit out" and would have run out of food and others supplies long before getting to the East Indies!
Go learn some history and don't try to rewrite it it suit your own indoctrination!

[1] You might say he could have "circumnavigated" the "UN map" world, but that was not thought of at the time. There is no question that the earth has been considered a Globe since some centuries BC! Even in other cultures the globe seems to certainly considered.
Quote
A terrestrial globe (Kura-i-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kubla Khan's Chinese court in 1267.
from: Spherical Earth, Islamic Astronomy

Evaluate your sources and provide evidence of what you're telling.

Why won't you point out what is wrong with his post? Wait, you know there is nothing wrong and just want to side track him for a while

He quoted a poem of unknown origin; there is probably hundreds of versions of it on the Internet. Besides, it doesn't state Colombus thought the Earth was round. Secondly, he linked Wikipedia. Everyone knows how Wikipedia works (not against it, but you need further research to state the information in there). Nevertheless I took a look and coudn't find the sentence "[Columbus] knew the earth was a sphere". Wasn't that a direct quotation? "Sphere" has 20 matches, no one with that quote. Couldn't find anything implying Columbus's ideas about Earth shape.

When I say "evaluate your sources", I really mean it. Provide something you've really searched about. Have you ever read some valid source, such as some document produced at the time, that suggests Columbus's thoughts about Earth's shape? What is most told is that Columbus (not him himself) corrected an ancient Greek calculus estimating the size of a round Earth. So, in the first place, they knew that that calculus wasn't accurate. That's all. According to my readings, I can only assume for sure that some educated people believed Earth roundness among Portuguese scholars. I really don't have the means to know whether Columbus shared or not this view.

It's up to you to bring evidence.
« Last Edit: April 07, 2016, 02:21:38 PM by Bzz »

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #26 on: April 07, 2016, 03:08:42 PM »

Not in the mood to be redirected to another website. I suggest you explain yourself or drop the subject.

I wonder how then maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place without GPS and without the concept of a round earth.
I know you are not in the mood to listen to facts but "maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place" with a clear concept of the Globe Earth!
Quote from: unknown to me at least
IN 1492
In fourteen hundred ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

He had three ships and left from Spain;
He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

He sailed by night; he sailed by day;
He used the stars to find his way.

A compass also helped him know
How to find the way to go.
And Columbus knew the earth was a sphere[1] and hoped to find the East Indies by going west. His only trouble is that he knew the distance going east, but had has circumference of the earth "a bit out" and would have run out of food and others supplies long before getting to the East Indies!
Go learn some history and don't try to rewrite it it suit your own indoctrination!

[1] You might say he could have "circumnavigated" the "UN map" world, but that was not thought of at the time. There is no question that the earth has been considered a Globe since some centuries BC! Even in other cultures the globe seems to certainly considered.
Quote
A terrestrial globe (Kura-i-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kubla Khan's Chinese court in 1267.
from: Spherical Earth, Islamic Astronomy

Evaluate your sources and provide evidence of what you're telling.

Why won't you point out what is wrong with his post? Wait, you know there is nothing wrong and just want to side track him for a while

He quoted a poem of unknown origin; there is probably hundreds of versions of it on the Internet. Besides, it doesn't state Colombus thought the Earth was round. Secondly, he linked Wikipedia. Everyone knows how Wikipedia works (not against it, but you need further research to state the information in there). Nevertheless I took a look and coudn't find the sentence "[Columbus] knew the earth was a sphere". Wasn't that a direct quotation? "Sphere" has 20 matches, no one with that quote. Couldn't find anything implying Columbus's ideas about Earth shape.

When I say "evaluate your sources", I really mean it. Provide something you've really searched about. Have you ever read some valid source, such as some document produced at the time, that suggests Columbus's thoughts about Earth's shape? What is most told is that Columbus (not him himself) corrected an ancient Greek calculus estimating the size of a round Earth. So, in the first place, they knew that that calculus wasn't accurate. That's all. According to my readings, I can only assume for sure that some educated people believed Earth roundness among Portuguese scholars. I really don't have the means to know whether Columbus shared or not this view.

It's up to you to bring evidence.

Here is a link, not that you will accept it. You like playing semantics except when it is used by you against RE

http://www.livescience.com/16468-christopher-columbus-myths-flat-earth-discovered-americas.html

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #27 on: April 07, 2016, 05:29:49 PM »

Not in the mood to be redirected to another website. I suggest you explain yourself or drop the subject.

I wonder how then maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place without GPS and without the concept of a round earth.
I know you are not in the mood to listen to facts but "maritime exploration during the 15th and 16th centuries took place" with a clear concept of the Globe Earth!
Quote from: unknown to me at least
IN 1492
In fourteen hundred ninety-two
Columbus sailed the ocean blue.

He had three ships and left from Spain;
He sailed through sunshine, wind and rain.

He sailed by night; he sailed by day;
He used the stars to find his way.

A compass also helped him know
How to find the way to go.
And Columbus knew the earth was a sphere[1] and hoped to find the East Indies by going west. His only trouble is that he knew the distance going east, but had has circumference of the earth "a bit out" and would have run out of food and others supplies long before getting to the East Indies!
Go learn some history and don't try to rewrite it it suit your own indoctrination!

[1] You might say he could have "circumnavigated" the "UN map" world, but that was not thought of at the time. There is no question that the earth has been considered a Globe since some centuries BC! Even in other cultures the globe seems to certainly considered.
Quote
A terrestrial globe (Kura-i-ard) was among the presents sent by the Persian Muslim astronomer Jamal-al-Din to Kubla Khan's Chinese court in 1267.
from: Spherical Earth, Islamic Astronomy

Evaluate your sources and provide evidence of what you're telling.

Why won't you point out what is wrong with his post? Wait, you know there is nothing wrong and just want to side track him for a while

He quoted a poem of unknown origin; there is probably hundreds of versions of it on the Internet. Besides, it doesn't state Colombus thought the Earth was round. Secondly, he linked Wikipedia. Everyone knows how Wikipedia works (not against it, but you need further research to state the information in there). Nevertheless I took a look and coudn't find the sentence "[Columbus] knew the earth was a sphere". Wasn't that a direct quotation? "Sphere" has 20 matches, no one with that quote. Couldn't find anything implying Columbus's ideas about Earth shape.

When I say "evaluate your sources", I really mean it. Provide something you've really searched about. Have you ever read some valid source, such as some document produced at the time, that suggests Columbus's thoughts about Earth's shape? What is most told is that Columbus (not him himself) corrected an ancient Greek calculus estimating the size of a round Earth. So, in the first place, they knew that that calculus wasn't accurate. That's all. According to my readings, I can only assume for sure that some educated people believed Earth roundness among Portuguese scholars. I really don't have the means to know whether Columbus shared or not this view.

It's up to you to bring evidence.

Here is a link, not that you will accept it. You like playing semantics except when it is used by you against RE

http://www.livescience.com/16468-christopher-columbus-myths-flat-earth-discovered-americas.html

It's not on me to accept it or not. It's about the quality of your source.

The first misconception he presents says that Columbus set out to try to prove the Earth was round, and says that If he did it, he was about 2,000 years late. So how does it differ from what I’ve said? I also think he didn’t set to prove it. So it’s not a misconception I share. I actually prefer to keep open the possibility that Columbus wasn’t at all sure about the Earth shape, and his knowledge was rather practical, exploring and mapping, through coordinate systems.

I'm also gonna highlight this passage: "Columbus, a self-taught man, greatly underestimated the Earth's circumference" and ask the same question above to you. What does that actually mean? That he thought the Earth was really round? Strange.
The rest of the article depicts more about Columbus's life than his view about Earth.
Nothing in the article implies that Columbus knew the Earth was round, or provide me a direct quotation, please.



Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #28 on: April 07, 2016, 09:04:07 PM »
It means, shock of shocks, what it says. Columbus knew the Earth was round, but he didn't have the correct measurements.

You really don't have a useful grasp of the meaning of English words do you?

Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #29 on: April 07, 2016, 09:05:33 PM »
Nothing in the article implies that Columbus knew the Earth was round, or provide me a direct quotation, please.

It was well established that the earth is round at this time. It's very unlikely that a man such as Columbus would think otherwise.

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #30 on: April 07, 2016, 09:44:56 PM »
It means, shock of shocks, what it says. Columbus knew the Earth was round, but he didn't have the correct measurements.

You really don't have a useful grasp of the meaning of English words do you?

Provide evidence (3). You have failed so far. Yes, my English is to be put in question now. lol

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #31 on: April 07, 2016, 09:46:05 PM »
Nothing in the article implies that Columbus knew the Earth was round, or provide me a direct quotation, please.

It was well established that the earth is round at this time. It's very unlikely that a man such as Columbus would think otherwise.

Can you corroborate your statement anyhow?

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #32 on: April 07, 2016, 09:47:28 PM »
It means, shock of shocks, what it says. Columbus knew the Earth was round, but he didn't have the correct measurements.

You really don't have a useful grasp of the meaning of English words do you?

Provide evidence (3). You have failed so far. Yes, my English is to be put in question now. lol

It     is   in    the     link    I    provided     above.

I wrote it as slowly as I could so you could follow what I said

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #33 on: April 07, 2016, 09:53:48 PM »
It means, shock of shocks, what it says. Columbus knew the Earth was round, but he didn't have the correct measurements.

You really don't have a useful grasp of the meaning of English words do you?

Provide evidence (3). You have failed so far. Yes, my English is to be put in question now. lol

It     is   in    the     link    I    provided     above.

I wrote it as slowly as I could so you could follow what I said

It's so difficult to make a point rather than copy and paste a random link and say "look, it is here. Dont you read?" lol Provide direct quotations oh wait.. you cant.

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #34 on: April 07, 2016, 10:12:02 PM »
It's so difficult to make a point rather than copy and paste a random link and say "look, it is here. Dont you read?" lol Provide direct quotations oh wait.. you cant.

You asked him to PROVIDE EVIDENCE (your words).  In most people's understanding of that request, simply telling you something would not suffice: one needs to link to an authoritative source.  If I told you that the people in my town lived to be a thousand years old, and you said "Provide Evidence", I would assume you wanted newspaper articles, census data, birth and death certificates, and the like, not merely me saying it again with different words. 

In any case, let's do BOTH.  I'll give you the link to an article which you could read, and I suppose I can read the relevant parts to you: "it was widely known by the 15th Century that the Earth is spherical. The question was, how big is the sphere?...Columbus preferred the values given by the medieval Persian geographer Alfraganus)...That was Columbus’s first error, which he compounded with a second: he assumed that the Persian was using the 4 856-foot Roman mile; in fact, Alfraganus meant the 7 091-foot Arabic mile...Taken together, the two miscalculations effectively reduced the planetary waistline to 16,305 nautical miles, down from the actual 21,600 or so, an error of 25 percent...And then there was the third error...Through a complicated chain of reasoning that mixed Ptolemy, Marinus of Tyre, and Marco Polo with some “corrections” of his own, Columbus calculated that he would find Japan at 85º west longitude (rather than 140° east)—moving it more than 8,000 miles closer to Cape St. Vincent."
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Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #35 on: April 08, 2016, 07:01:37 PM »
It's so difficult to make a point rather than copy and paste a random link and say "look, it is here. Dont you read?" lol Provide direct quotations oh wait.. you cant.

You asked him to PROVIDE EVIDENCE (your words).  In most people's understanding of that request, simply telling you something would not suffice: one needs to link to an authoritative source.  If I told you that the people in my town lived to be a thousand years old, and you said "Provide Evidence", I would assume you wanted newspaper articles, census data, birth and death certificates, and the like, not merely me saying it again with different words. 

In any case, let's do BOTH.  I'll give you the link to an article which you could read, and I suppose I can read the relevant parts to you: "it was widely known by the 15th Century that the Earth is spherical. The question was, how big is the sphere?...Columbus preferred the values given by the medieval Persian geographer Alfraganus)...That was Columbus’s first error, which he compounded with a second: he assumed that the Persian was using the 4 856-foot Roman mile; in fact, Alfraganus meant the 7 091-foot Arabic mile...Taken together, the two miscalculations effectively reduced the planetary waistline to 16,305 nautical miles, down from the actual 21,600 or so, an error of 25 percent...And then there was the third error...Through a complicated chain of reasoning that mixed Ptolemy, Marinus of Tyre, and Marco Polo with some “corrections” of his own, Columbus calculated that he would find Japan at 85º west longitude (rather than 140° east)—moving it more than 8,000 miles closer to Cape St. Vincent."

I read the article. The author makes a lot of assumptions and don't back any one of them. He even made a map on his own as you can see the reference at the end lol.
Here is his background as a map maker: IEEE Spectrum “Tech Talk” contributor Douglas McCormick is a New York City-based freelance writer and communications consultant specializing in technology and life science. He has been editor or editorial director of such publications as PM360 (for healthcare marketers), BioTechniques (for molecular biology researchers), Pharmaceutical Technology, and Nature Publishing Company’s Bio/Technology (now called Nature Biotechnology). He was founder, CEO, and CTO of Physician Verification Services (an internet based healthcare marketing start-up) and, earlier, corporate director of scientific communications at SmithKline Beecham and computer science editor at Hayden Book Company.

For the part "it was widely known by the 15th Century that the Earth is spherical. The question was, how big is the sphere?", I wonder who posed this question... maybe he himself? And I'd like to know where he took this whole statement from (which page on the book he reviewed and from where the original author took it from). There are also other wild guesses. Not worth mentioning though.


« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 07:06:08 PM by Bzz »

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #36 on: April 08, 2016, 08:25:08 PM »
It's so difficult to make a point rather than copy and paste a random link and say "look, it is here. Dont you read?" lol Provide direct quotations oh wait.. you cant.

You asked him to PROVIDE EVIDENCE (your words).  In most people's understanding of that request, simply telling you something would not suffice: one needs to link to an authoritative source.  If I told you that the people in my town lived to be a thousand years old, and you said "Provide Evidence", I would assume you wanted newspaper articles, census data, birth and death certificates, and the like, not merely me saying it again with different words. 

In any case, let's do BOTH.  I'll give you the link to an article which you could read, and I suppose I can read the relevant parts to you: "it was widely known by the 15th Century that the Earth is spherical. The question was, how big is the sphere?...Columbus preferred the values given by the medieval Persian geographer Alfraganus)...That was Columbus’s first error, which he compounded with a second: he assumed that the Persian was using the 4 856-foot Roman mile; in fact, Alfraganus meant the 7 091-foot Arabic mile...Taken together, the two miscalculations effectively reduced the planetary waistline to 16,305 nautical miles, down from the actual 21,600 or so, an error of 25 percent...And then there was the third error...Through a complicated chain of reasoning that mixed Ptolemy, Marinus of Tyre, and Marco Polo with some “corrections” of his own, Columbus calculated that he would find Japan at 85º west longitude (rather than 140° east)—moving it more than 8,000 miles closer to Cape St. Vincent."

I read the article. The author makes a lot of assumptions and don't back any one of them. He even made a map on his own as you can see the reference at the end lol.
Here is his background as a map maker: IEEE Spectrum “Tech Talk” contributor Douglas McCormick is a New York City-based freelance writer and communications consultant specializing in technology and life science. He has been editor or editorial director of such publications as PM360 (for healthcare marketers), BioTechniques (for molecular biology researchers), Pharmaceutical Technology, and Nature Publishing Company’s Bio/Technology (now called Nature Biotechnology). He was founder, CEO, and CTO of Physician Verification Services (an internet based healthcare marketing start-up) and, earlier, corporate director of scientific communications at SmithKline Beecham and computer science editor at Hayden Book Company.

For the part "it was widely known by the 15th Century that the Earth is spherical. The question was, how big is the sphere?", I wonder who posed this question... maybe he himself? And I'd like to know where he took this whole statement from (which page on the book he reviewed and from where the original author took it from). There are also other wild guesses. Not worth mentioning though.

Wild guesses. That sums up FE perfectly

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #37 on: April 08, 2016, 08:56:48 PM »
Wild guesses. That sums up FE perfectly

How does it change the fact that you are not able to provide credible sources? I recommend you consult Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus yourself, instead of reading the interpretation of some random author who is not from the field and haven't learned how to provide quotations for his review.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2016, 08:58:38 PM by Bzz »

Offline Round fact

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #38 on: April 08, 2016, 09:23:38 PM »
Wild guesses. That sums up FE perfectly

How does it change the fact that you are not able to provide credible sources? I recommend you consult Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus yourself, instead of reading the interpretation of some random author who is not from the field and haven't learned how to provide quotations for his review.

The source IS creditable. You just don't like the results. As proof here is another link;
http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/christopher-columbus

I'm betting  you find some minor fault with this too.

Offline Bzz

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Re: "Surveyors" answers to the curvature!
« Reply #39 on: April 08, 2016, 09:31:39 PM »
Wild guesses. That sums up FE perfectly

How does it change the fact that you are not able to provide credible sources? I recommend you consult Admiral of the Ocean Sea: A Life of Christopher Columbus yourself, instead of reading the interpretation of some random author who is not from the field and haven't learned how to provide quotations for his review.

The source IS creditable. You just don't like the results. As proof here is another link;
http://www.history.com/topics/exploration/christopher-columbus

I'm betting  you find some minor fault with this too.

Minor fault like reviewing a book without quoting the pages you've consulted? You need to follow some rules to write something. How difficult is to grasp that?
Look, stop looking for science blogs/sites. Do you think History.com is the final authority? It's the same commom sense. I ask you to go after the first source you provided in order to be coherent. But somehow you decided to change the line again. Stop playing a fool.