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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #100 on: February 24, 2016, 03:35:59 PM »
Tom, it doesn't help for you to merely quote the Wiki when the question being asked is " What does this line from the wiki mean?"  Especially if the line you quote was actually already quoted by the other guy, which means he saw it already and it didn't help the first time he read it.  It probably won't help the second time either, especially removed from the surrounding context. 

So I will tell you what I nderstand Rabinoz's question to be.  Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I apologize, but I would like an answer myself, so nothing lost.  Here it is: How can a shadow illuminate anything?  That's not what shadows do, illuminate.  They block illumination.

Here's the line again, with my emphasis addd to bring attention to the part we're asking about: "When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time."  Clearly states that a shadow is illuminating the moon, we/I just wonder what that means.  I think it might just be a typo, but I would lke to know for sure.

The wording is correct. Here is an alternative version:

a shadow [caused by] the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon

There is not much difference between the word "from". From can have several meanings. "Caused by" is the clear meaning here. Hardly anyone would interpret it as a shadow illuminating anything in this context. It clearly says the sun is the one doing the illuminating, not that the shadow is illuminating, as the words "sun" and "illuminating" are right next to each other and the words "shadow" and "illuminating" are not.
« Last Edit: March 03, 2020, 04:58:09 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #101 on: February 24, 2016, 10:43:10 PM »
Tom, it doesn't help for you to merely quote the Wiki when the question being asked is " What does this line from the wiki mean?"  Especially if the line you quote was actually already quoted by the other guy, which means he saw it already and it didn't help the first time he read it.  It probably won't help the second time either, especially removed from the surrounding context. 

So I will tell you what I nderstand Rabinoz's question to be.  Maybe I'm wrong, in which case I apologize, but I would like an answer myself, so nothing lost.  Here it is: How can a shadow illuminate anything?  That's not what shadows do, illuminate.  They block illumination.

Here's the line again, with my emphasis addd to bring attention to the part we're asking about: "When one observes the phases of the moon he sees the moon's day and night, a shadow from the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon at any one time."  Clearly states that a shadow is illuminating the moon, we/I just wonder what that means.  I think it might just be a typo, but I would lke to know for sure.

The wording is correct. Here is an alternative version:

a shadow [caused by] the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon

There is not much difference between the word "from". From can have several meanings. "Caused by" is the clear meaning here. Only a challenged person would interpret it as a shadow illuminating anything in this context. It clearly says the sun is the one doing the illuminating, not that the shadow is illuminating, as the words "sun" and "illuminating" are right next to each other and the words "shadow" and "illuminating" are not.
I repeat my previous post!
The sun only makes shadows because an object in interposed between the sun and the shadowed object (here the moon).
What third object is casting a shadow on the moon to cause the phases?
The sun cannot of itself cast or cause a shadow on the moon!
I ask again
What third object (apart from the SUN and MOON) is casting a shadow on the moon to cause the phases?

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Offline Rounder

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #102 on: February 25, 2016, 07:37:44 AM »
The wording is correct. Here is an alternative version:

a shadow [caused by] the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon


I see!  Thank you, that is perfectly clear to me now, and I would suggest this wording be adopted to replace the text found in the wiki (and I would change it to "...illuminating only half..." as well)  It appears we are in agreement that the dark side of the moon is in shadow not because of a third object, but because it faces away from the light source. 
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Offline Unsure101

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #103 on: February 25, 2016, 09:17:46 AM »
The wording is correct. Here is an alternative version:

a shadow [caused by] the sun illuminating half of the spherical moon


I see!  Thank you, that is perfectly clear to me now, and I would suggest this wording be adopted to replace the text found in the wiki (and I would change it to "...illuminating only half..." as well)  It appears we are in agreement that the dark side of the moon is in shadow not because of a third object, but because it faces away from the light source.
In the FE model, is the moon rotating at a similar speed as the sun?
If the sun is the only light source illuminating the moon, the further south from the north pole you go, you should be able to see multiple phases in a single night as the moon passes overhead.

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Offline magic

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #104 on: March 03, 2016, 04:50:17 AM »
The flat earth and heliocentric models are opposites in almost every way. Is it really that hard to tell which is correct?
The answer is NO. The earth is a sphere. It's obvious by the apparent positions of the celestial objects in the sky as observed from earth. By simple observation you can determine conclusively that the earth is round and that a flat earth is impossible.

One of the simplest examples illustrating this is Polaris. See why here:

http://debunkingflatearth.blogspot.com/2016/02/debunking-flat-earth-how-polaris-proves.html

Your entire post was an unsupported opinion. The link you provided has the following requirements that the information conveyed requires to be valid.

1) The Earth revolves around the Sun.
2) The Sun moves throughout the galaxy.
3) The sphere earth rotates on an axis.
4) The stars also move relative to the galaxy.

Any observer in the moon given these 4 requirements would not be able to produce a photograph with star trails as they are rotating away from the Stars while the planet they are on is moving through the galaxy. The trails presented on these images do not comport with these given requirements. As a natural result one would have to being eliminating the points representing the source of the conflict until the results can be reconciled. This wouldn't leave any points on the list above remaining.

The example you provided is void as the fact that star trail photos have been reproduced numerous times indicates that the star trails form in a singular direction, predictably, and persistently through the ages.

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Offline rabinoz

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Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #105 on: March 03, 2016, 06:13:10 AM »
1) The Earth revolves around the Sun.
2) The Sun moves throughout the galaxy.
3) The sphere earth rotates on an axis.
4) The stars also move relative to the galaxy.
Flat Earthers seem to have no concept of time scales and distances.

"The sphere earth rotates on an axis." once in a little under 24 hours.

"The Earth revolves around the Sun" once in a bit over 365 days.

"The Sun moves throughout the galaxy." but, not just the Sun, but the Solar System as a whole and this movement is too slow (in relative terms) for any but astronomers to see.

"The stars also move relative to the galaxy" this is a bit backwards. Most of the stars we see are part of our galaxy, the Milky Way and I assume the Milky Way moves relative to the rest of the universe. But, these movements are completely undetectable to other than astronomers.

Then the distance from the earth to the Sun is almost 1,200 times diameter of the earth.
The distance to the nearest star (Proxima Centauri) is over 250,000 times the distance to the Sun.

The whole point of this is that the only movement that affects star trails on earth is the rotation of the earth and
since the moon rotates on its axis (and around the earth) about once in 27 days
Star trails would be observed on the moon, but would take about 27 days for one rotation.

Any movement around the Sun would have only a minor effect. Any movement relative to the stars is quite negligible.

(I hope my quick calculations are right!)


Re: Polaris proves the earth is round.
« Reply #106 on: March 05, 2016, 12:55:20 AM »
The flat earth and heliocentric models are opposites in almost every way. Is it really that hard to tell which is correct?
The answer is NO. The earth is a sphere. It's obvious by the apparent positions of the celestial objects in the sky as observed from earth. By simple observation you can determine conclusively that the earth is round and that a flat earth is impossible.

One of the simplest examples illustrating this is Polaris. See why here:

http://debunkingflatearth.blogspot.com/2016/02/debunking-flat-earth-how-polaris-proves.html

Your entire post was an unsupported opinion. The link you provided has the following requirements that the information conveyed requires to be valid.

1) The Earth revolves around the Sun.
2) The Sun moves throughout the galaxy.
3) The sphere earth rotates on an axis.
4) The stars also move relative to the galaxy.

Any observer in the moon given these 4 requirements would not be able to produce a photograph with star trails as they are rotating away from the Stars while the planet they are on is moving through the galaxy. The trails presented on these images do not comport with these given requirements. As a natural result one would have to being eliminating the points representing the source of the conflict until the results can be reconciled. This wouldn't leave any points on the list above remaining.

The example you provided is void as the fact that star trail photos have been reproduced numerous times indicates that the star trails form in a singular direction, predictably, and persistently through the ages.
You are mistaken. The information provided requires none of those. What it shows is that the shape of the earth can only be round and the celestial objects can only be very far away, according to the angles at which we observe those celestial objects.  It also shows that a flat earth is impossible because it cannot produce those observed angles. This includes the sun which would never set, nor even get close to the horizon. The only way around these facts is to subscribe to the ridiculous argument (already expressed in this thread) that applied geometry and trigonometry somehow, despite all empirical evidence, don't really work in the real world, and that triangles which are very large somehow magically cease to adhere to the physical laws to which other triangles are subject, e.g., they can have irrational properties like 0° angles.