Poll

I believe Jesus Christ is...

Just a man 2,000 years ago
12 (37.5%)
The very begotten Son of God come in the flesh, born of a virgin!
9 (28.1%)
A myth... He never existed
6 (18.8%)
A good teacher/prophet
5 (15.6%)
A man who blaphemed God
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 25

Ghost of V

Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #20 on: March 26, 2015, 01:45:08 AM »
I'm not a big fan of posting something so general like "modern scholars all agree..."

Why do they agree? What is the evidence?

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Offline mister bickles

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #21 on: March 29, 2015, 12:24:49 PM »

You may also note that the writer of the review meets all Mister Bickles requirements for a Jesus-denying scholar; assuming The University of Sydney is elite enough for Bickles tastes, that is

uh....no it doesn't.....
BTW...its not my criteria;
i was using the "bench-mark" set by the author of the linked article which, apparently, you hvn't bothered to read....yet you expect others to read yr stuff, eh?

i'll cut 'n' paste it here:

I've put out the challenge before: if anyone can find a full professor of Classics, Ancient History or New Testament in any accredited university in the world who thinks Jesus never lived, I will eat a page of my Bible, probably Matthew chapter 1. It's been a year since I first tweeted the challenge and religious critic John Safran retweeted it to his 60,000 followers. My Bible remains safe.

(written in 2012 but, AFAIK, his challenge remains unanswered)


Quote
Real scholars are debating the existence of Jesus. It is not a closed case despite what Wikipedia says.

no they're not!
you've only cited one "scholar" and he's not even of sufficient standing in the academic community to hold an Associate Professorship let alone a full Professorship;
why is that important?
because its a matter of credibility and testability as per the peer review process;

again, to quote from Dickson's article:
Taken together, the non-Christian references "provide us with certainty" about Jesus's life and death, insists Professor Christopher Tuckett of Oxford University (certainly no friend of Christian apologetics), and "render highly implausible any far-fetched theories that even Jesus's very existence was a Christian invention." This is the consensus of non-religious experts today and no amount of sceptical huffing and puffing can change that.
nisi Dominus frustra

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Offline mister bickles

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #22 on: March 29, 2015, 12:36:36 PM »

Apparently, there is little debate anymore as to whether or not Jesus existed as a historical figure.  It seems that most of the debate concerns the details of His life as documented in the gospels.
Virtually all modern scholars of antiquity agree that Jesus existed, and most biblical scholars and classical historians see the theories of his non-existence as effectively refuted.[57][59][60][nb 10][77] There is no evidence today that the existence of Jesus was ever denied in antiquity by those who opposed Christianity.[78][79]
...
There is however widespread disagreement among scholars on the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and on the meaning of his teachings,[2] and the only two events subject to "almost universal assent" are that Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and was crucified by the order of the Roman Prefect Pontius Pilate.[61][12][62][2]

pretty much what i was trying to say;
thnx for that Wiki link;
as with most Wiki articles, the real "meat" is in the external references and cites;
so, on this subject, there's quite a tidy little sum to check out.....including the article by Dickson that i linked to in my earlier post......

as per Dickson's article....the real heavy-weight arena is "the details of the life of Jesus mentioned in the gospel narratives, and ......the meaning of his teachings"......you could probably fill a completed set of Encylopædia Brittanicas on that ....whereas the debate over His existence is so light-weight and asinine that you'd be lucky to fill a copy of a super-market check-out magazine with it........
nisi Dominus frustra

Offline Stugo

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #23 on: August 02, 2016, 08:33:32 PM »
mister bickles - I agree that the voting options weren't good enogh, so I didn't vote, but the Christ is Almighty God and the only Saviour.

Tragically, many people have bought into this ridiculous "Yeshua/Jesus never existed" fantasy, which comes from 'mystery school' secret societies and revisionist/modernist 'progressive' 'historians' who simply don't want to believe the truth or don't want others to believe the truth for their own reasons.

The Freemasons, for example, want to destroy belief in all religions, especially Christianity, so that they can usher in their Luciferianism.

To suggest that Christ never lived is simply outrageous; to try to tell people that Christians in Rome were put to death for beleiving in someone who hadn't recently been killled is an insult to the most stupid of people.

But then, I heard that the person in charge of this 'Scociety' is an atheist and that it was set up to try to discredit Christians; perhaps someone can confirm or deny this.

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Offline Roundy

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #24 on: August 03, 2016, 01:14:47 AM »
He was a man.  Probably a teacher, possibly a cult leader, likely a subversive, not a prophet.  He had some good ideas that were twisted into a fairly ridiculous religion.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Offline Stugo

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #25 on: August 03, 2016, 02:47:01 AM »
He was a man.  Probably a teacher, possibly a cult leader, likely a subversive, not a prophet.  He had some good ideas that were twisted into a fairly ridiculous religion.

"Probably?....possibly?....likely?"

Not good enough. I hope you get to know Him then you will be able to use more affirmative words and in a different context.


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Offline Roundy

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #26 on: August 03, 2016, 05:37:36 AM »
He was a man.  Probably a teacher, possibly a cult leader, likely a subversive, not a prophet.  He had some good ideas that were twisted into a fairly ridiculous religion.

"Probably?....possibly?....likely?"

Not good enough. I hope you get to know Him then you will be able to use more affirmative words and in a different context.

I was quite affirmative on the two most important points.  He was a man, and he was not a prophet.

I would love to meet Jesus.  I'd like to ask him if he really did say all those wise things that are attributed to him, and if so, how he feels about the mockery history has made of his teachings.
Dr. Frank is a physicist. He says it's impossible. So it's impossible.
My friends, please remember Tom said this the next time you fall into the trap of engaging him, and thank you. :)

Offline Stugo

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #27 on: August 03, 2016, 09:03:44 AM »
He was a man.  Probably a teacher, possibly a cult leader, likely a subversive, not a prophet.  He had some good ideas that were twisted into a fairly ridiculous religion.

"Probably?....possibly?....likely?"

Not good enough. I hope you get to know Him then you will be able to use more affirmative words and in a different context.

I was quite affirmative on the two most important points.  He was a man, and he was not a prophet.

I would love to meet Jesus.  I'd like to ask him if he really did say all those wise things that are attributed to him, and if so, how he feels about the mockery history has made of his teachings.

You can know Him. The witness of Him is in the Old Testament and the New Testament. These ancient documents are mocked by many, whereas those of more dubious authorship are accepted by modern scholars. It's the politics of it.

Did you know that the Britons, Irish, Saxons, etc., traced their genealogies back to Noah's son Japheth? This was before Christianisation. Some people believe that Paul (Saul of Tarsus) was a false prophet and I'm not sure, but I believe the rest of the Bible can be believed.

From Genesis, "In the beginning, God created...". My basic website of origins: http://www.truth.org.uk

Offline Love

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #28 on: August 05, 2016, 12:16:01 PM »
Whether one believes in Jesus or not the position is not one of hard logic and reason, rather, a matter of intuition.  Since I first went to church when I was a child I believed Jesus.  I tried not to believe in Him and I am not sure why?  I have had depression and anxiety problems, mood swings, bitterness, low self esteem and this stuff has held me back from exploiting my talents to their maximum effectiveness.  I repented and asked Christ to forgive me.  The only thing that ever helped me to come out of the fog of depression is belief in the Divinity of Christ.   Science can't help with spiritual problems. 
I don't claim to be superior or holier than thou.  I really don't know anything.  But I am convinced Christ is real and at some point in the future we will all have to answer to him.
I think intuition is more important to survival and welfare than reason.

Offline Stugo

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #29 on: August 05, 2016, 01:52:38 PM »
Whether one believes in Jesus or not the position is not one of hard logic and reason, rather, a matter of intuition.  Since I first went to church when I was a child I believed Jesus.  I tried not to believe in Him and I am not sure why?  I have had depression and anxiety problems, mood swings, bitterness, low self esteem and this stuff has held me back from exploiting my talents to their maximum effectiveness.  I repented and asked Christ to forgive me.  The only thing that ever helped me to come out of the fog of depression is belief in the Divinity of Christ.   Science can't help with spiritual problems. 
I don't claim to be superior or holier than thou.  I really don't know anything.  But I am convinced Christ is real and at some point in the future we will all have to answer to him.
I think intuition is more important to survival and welfare than reason.

That's great. I too have suffered for many, many years from depression, anxiety, alcoholism and, at times, bad feelings towards others and Christ has helped me to keep going.

There is a great misunderstanding in the world that science and faith are complete opposites, but

a) Modern science is based on the idea that the Almighty created an orderly universe and so it can be interpreted in a rational way.

b) Following on, it was mainly believers in God who became the most influential scientists in centuries gone by.

c) Because modern science is based on Christian beliefs about the universe, 'atheists', many of whom seem more interested in attacking Christianity than teaching science, are therefore attacking the underpinning of their own belief system.

d) Those who reject Christ have to believe that we came from the slime - as former Oxford professor, Peter Atkins, said, ‘We are just a bit of slime on the planet’. Were that true though, our thoughts would be the result of the mere movement of atoms in the brain obeying the fixed laws of chemistry.

e) As a consequence, some evolutionists insist that there is no free will, which begs the question: how are they so sure that they are right in their thinking if they are unable to think in the real sense?

f) Why do materialists believe that they have the answers to metaphysical questions when their sphere of knowledge is in the physical realm only? In fact, that's all they think there is, hence they tend to mock people who believe in spiritual things. No wonder they come across as stupid, arrogant and intolerant - their anger used as a smokescreen to cover up their ignorance about matters they do no understand.

g) Science and religion are not polar opposites, otherwise there would be no religious scientists, but there are many. The battle is one of worldviews; it is worldview vs worldview and science vs science.

h) As it is science vs science, it is becoming ever more clear as time goes on, that Darwin was wrong. He thought that the fossil record would reveal a finely graduated chain of evolving organisms, yet what we find is a record of complete, fully functional plants and animals, with just a handful of possible candidates for 'missing links' which can be challenged.

Darwin also knew that if any organism was found which was too complex to have arisen by successive, slight modifications, his theory would "absolutely break down". Modern microscopes have helped to discover those very complex organisms which disprove his theory.

i) In population genetics, we can see that populations decline in fitness due to the build up of deleterious mutations with each new generation, leading ultimately to extinction. This is the opposite of what needs to happen for evolution theory to work. therefore life must have been created perfect in the beginning.

Darwin and neo-Darwinists can be shown to be totally wrong about the origin of life. Scripture holds true just as strongly as ever: "In the beginning God created...".

Glory to the Almighty Creator.

Offline Love

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #30 on: August 06, 2016, 03:26:48 PM »
Stugo---I concur, and God Bless You!

Martin Luther II

Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #31 on: August 07, 2016, 07:27:34 AM »
Interesting question! & quite legitimate, if 1 is just beginning to explore the religio-philosophical view around 1. It is true that most historians don't doubt that Jesus of Nazareth existed. W/ an MA in History, I have to grant that. My own Confessional Faith is beside the point. I'm a Jew. So was Jesus. In fact, he came 1st to the House of Israel. I have also joined the Lutheran Church MO Synod. This by definition holds me to the Faith of the Ancient Church as understood by the Book of Concord. Now the Talmud's reference to Yeshu is NOT a reference to Jesus of Nazareth, but rather, another man that worked sex magic & got only 5 disciples. He was stoned @ Jerusalem's gates. But most historians don't doubt the NT & other writers who attested to Jesus's existence & the religion that developed as a result of his life, death, & resurrection.

EDIT: Please note that when I am on my phone, or other similar device, I have to use modified writing techniques due to character and space limitations, such as numbers instead of words, so like the above "1", instead of "one", and "&" instead of "and", and "MO" instead of "Missouri", which would have been more appropriate in the writing of the name of the Church to which I belong, and "@" instead of "at", and so-on. Obviously, I am typing this edit from a computer, and NOT my phone or other similar device, whereas the first part of this was typed from my phone.

The point, of course, is that those devices use the WAP2 interface, which is quite unusual now, but still comes in handy for out-of-date browsers like my dumb-phone that can't handle full versions of sites, or my VERY old Kindle. My new Kindle handles the full site, but requires Wi-Fi. The old Kindle uses Whisper-Net 3G Wireless like my dumbphone, so has some advantages.

Anyway, my apologies for the odd looking typing when I am on one of those WAP2 enabled browsers. Also, I may run out of space, and have to put (cont) at the end of a post, and then continue the post in another entry, sometimes even two. This has been known to happen. Please be patient if it does. Thank you.
« Last Edit: August 07, 2016, 01:44:39 PM by Martin Luther II »

Offline Stugo

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Re: Flat earth society poll on the Christ
« Reply #32 on: August 07, 2016, 01:23:50 PM »
Stugo---I concur, and God Bless You!

Thank you. Rich blessings to you also.