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Offline markjo

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #40 on: September 30, 2014, 08:08:41 PM »
This idea that Vitamin C cures all sounds an awful lot like the phosphorus tonic that Dr. Birley used to push back in the day.

Or colloidal silver. Which literally turns users blue.
Or radium water.  One man drank 1400 doses and his jaw fell off.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #41 on: September 30, 2014, 08:12:19 PM »
Testimonial evidence exists for alien abductions, bigfoot, flying bunny monster, and anything else that you can make up.

Testimonials are not evidence of anything.

This is incorrect. If multiple sources are claiming that a man was gunned down in a nearby neighborhood, it is evidence that a shooting took place and it gets reported in the newspaper.

Your analogy fails because we are not trying to determine if a single event occured, we are trying to determine if Vitamin C is actually a cure for... everything.  Your testimony strikes me as something not unlike claims that faith healing works. 

Here is a short three minute video which proves to me that Vitamin C is beneficial.

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/video/#!/news/health/Could-Vitamin-C-Help-Treat-Pancreatic-Cancer-/137546083

According to this video the majority of pancreatic cancer patients at this clinic showed regression after receiving Vitamin C IV therapy. A majority! As the doctor states in the video, pancreatic cancer is the most deadly type of cancer with a cruel 1% survival rate using traditional medicine.

It would be hard to say that these patients in this clinic regressed because of some reason other than Vitamin C.

Do those people still die of pancreatic cancer or not?  If 100% of them lived, I would agree that it is a cure for pancreatic cancer. 

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

Ghost of V

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #42 on: September 30, 2014, 08:36:14 PM »
The only thing vitamin c cures is scurvy.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #43 on: September 30, 2014, 08:40:37 PM »
The only thing vitamin c cures is scurvy.

And lightly coloured urine.
Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

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Offline Rushy

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #44 on: September 30, 2014, 08:48:44 PM »
Oh come on guys, are you really this bored/stupid? This is the single most obvious example of "hi I'm Tom Bishop and I have extreme views" threads I have ever seen.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #45 on: September 30, 2014, 08:49:42 PM »
Oh come on guys, are you really this bored/stupid? This is the single most obvious example of "hi I'm Tom Bishop and I have extreme views" threads I have ever seen.

Yeah, but it was a nice impetus to research something I had never contemplated.

Also:

Tom Bishop is the foremost thinker of the FES.  He does not even know who you are.
Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

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Offline Particle Person

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #46 on: September 30, 2014, 11:38:36 PM »
Tim Bishop is one of the most esteemed zentics of this era. How dare you demand we ignore him?
Your mom is when your mom and you arent your mom.

Saddam Hussein

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #47 on: September 30, 2014, 11:40:14 PM »
NaturalNews is a quality source.

Ghost of V

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #48 on: September 30, 2014, 11:41:11 PM »
Tim Bisharp is a good man.

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Offline junker

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #49 on: October 01, 2014, 12:54:42 AM »
I saw this on an episode of House once...
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #50 on: October 01, 2014, 01:26:17 AM »
I saw this on an episode of House once...

Doesn't House call them Tom an idiot in it?
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Offline spoon

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #51 on: October 01, 2014, 05:25:23 AM »
I saw this on an episode of House once...

Doesn't House call them Tom an idiot in it?

wut,\
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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #52 on: October 01, 2014, 05:04:01 PM »
There is a conspiracy in the vitamin industry. I've learned a lot by reading some articles on the internet. I've come to the concision that 'naturalist healers' don't really know $h*#. They were taught by other naturalists with a twisted view of medicine designed to maximize profits. See, naturalists can get behind a substance like vitamin C because it's unpatentable, and they don't have to invest millions of dollars in research and development, not to mention FDA approval, to prove or support any of their claims about its ability to cure disease.

You see, naturalist healers have a huge financial incentive to keep you sick.  Traditional medicine already has a strangle hold on the health care market.  They control a multi-trillion dollar market.  The only way for the vitamin industry to gain any market share at all is to convince customers that traditional medicine is unsafe.  The most effective way to do this is to make your customers ill and convince them that only you posses the cure.  The vitamin industry is a multi-billion dollar industry in its own right, so it has every incentive to do this.  Even if they couldn't make you ill (and I'll demonstrate momentarily with an anecdote from a website that this is an indisputable fact), they still have a huge incentive to lie to you about the effectiveness of both their own products, and traditional medicine.  As you well know, Tom, if someone has a motivation to lie, then you must assume that he or she is lying.

The 'testimonals' you've been reading online are obviously written and planted by the vitamin industry itself.  It would be trivially easy to create hundreds and thousands of fake testimonials on dozens of different websites all established and run by the vitamin industry, and there's a massive financial incentive to do so.

If anything, evidence indicates that the vitamin industry may just be another arm of big pharma: customers dissatisfied with their traditional products can (unknowingly) purchase their 'alternative, natural' products.  Those customers will either get better and continue to purchase those products, or they'll stay the same/get worse and go back to traditional medicine.  This works especially well if the customer gets sicker; they'll come back to big pharma and spend even more money than they otherwise would have.  Thus, there is a massive financial incentive for the 'vitamin' industry (big pharma) to make you sick.

Some anecdotes that prove my hypothesis to be indisputable fact:

The vitamin industry isn't 'natural': http://blog.healthkismet.com/an-insider-reveals-the-darkest-secrets-of-the-supplement-industry
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Nearly all supplements are synthetic. A few, like Vitamin E, are isolated from refined soybean oil. They are not natural in any way. The big con is that people think if they get supplements from a health food store, a drug store, a naturopath, or a chiropractor, that they are getting different products. The only real difference is the fillers. The vitamin c from the drug store is no different than the vitamin c from the naturopath. Both are synthesized using the Reichstein Process.
[...]
Unfortunately, there is no real way for the consumer to be able to figure this out, because companies will lie and give people the run around. The people and practitioners who sell supplements are also no help because they have no real knowledge of what goes on behind the scenes; they only know what the companies tell them.
[...]
Vitamin companies are not little mom and pop companies. It is a huge, multi-billion dollar industry. All the green washing and pretending they care is just about making money. So, do not fall for it.

The vitamin industry is in collusion with corporate farming to covertly sell more GMO corn: http://www.undergroundhealth.com/the-10-worst-toxins-hidden-in-vitamins-supplements-and-health-foods/
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Here’s another whopper that’s sure to open some eyes: Nearly all the “vitamin C” sold in vitamins across America right now is derived from GMO corn.

This means that many of the supplements sold at Whole Foods, the vitamins sold on Amazon.com, the pills at your local pharmacy, and especially the products at the grocery store are (nearly) all routinely made with genetically modified vitamin C. It’s typically called “ascorbic acid,” and nearly 100% of the ascorbic acid used in the natural products industry is derived from GMOs.

Sourcing non-GMO vitamin C requires you to go outside the United States. There is no existing supply chain of certified organic, non-GMO ascorbic acid available anywhere in America (at least not to my knowledge). You can’t even run batches of non-GMO ascorbic acid production in the USA because all the facilities are contaminated with residues of GM corn.

The vitamin industry is using our own ignorance to keep us sick from birth: http://www.mommypotamus.com/what-the-vitamin-industry-does-not-want-you-to-know/
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Unless your child has been tested extensively for nutritional deficiencies (one or two broad tests do not represent a true picture), you’re effectively supplementing in the dark. Throwing random doses of things into the mix is not a good idea, because if you give your child too much of something they don’t need their body will use precious stores of other vitamins/minerals to metabolise and get rid of it.
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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #53 on: October 01, 2014, 05:45:18 PM »
10/10
Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #54 on: October 01, 2014, 06:36:24 PM »
This idea that Vitamin C cures all sounds an awful lot like the phosphorus tonic that Dr. Birley used to push back in the day.

I see no reason to believe that phosphorous cannot cure a disease. There are many substance you can fill your body with that can kill diseases.

A tiny bacterium can be killed in many ways. Radiation, included. Those stories of people curing themselves of chronic illnesses and stage 4 cancers by sitting in radioactive mines is absolutely true. Many of the stories of people curing themselves by drinking "holy water" are also true. There is a spring in France and a fountain in Florida where thousands of people around the world flock to in hopes of curing themselves. People with bodies riddled with cancers can have their malignancy halted over a weekend. Followup tests on these water cures almost always show that the water is irradiated. These radioactive springs and wells were heavily promoted in early 1900's America and were very popular. Some of these people took in too much radiation and die of radiation poisoning, which caused the government to ban the therapy.

Things like Vitamin C, Colloidal Silver, Iodine are less harmful than radiation, and have communities around those substances to promote their effectiveness. It is my belief, however, that Vitamin C is the substance most natural to the body and therefore the least damaging. The body already uses Vitamin C to combat disease, and can better move it in concentration to the places it needs to be. The body can better handle the aftermath of an anti-oxidant coming through and wiping out diseases because it was built to handle that.

There is a cure-all to almost all diseases. It's called the Human Body. It is already universally agreed that the human body fights its own diseases. No one disputes that. Most believe that the Human Body fights cancer to the best of its ability. It follows, therefore, that if you boost the immune system, give it the ammunition it needs, that the body can cure itself. How many people are telling you to eat your fruits and vegetables? Everyone. It's good for you, it keeps you healthy, nourished, and will prevent diseases by giving the human body the resources it needs. If you believe that, then you already believe that vitamins can cure disease. It should come to no surprise that mega-doses of vitamins will have a positive effect on a body fighting for its life.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 10:31:17 PM by Tom Bishop »

Ghost of V

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #55 on: October 01, 2014, 06:39:52 PM »
We're just giving him more cannon fodder at this point.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 07:04:59 PM by Vauxhall »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #56 on: October 01, 2014, 06:57:00 PM »
Your analogy fails because we are not trying to determine if a single event occured, we are trying to determine if Vitamin C is actually a cure for... everything.  Your testimony strikes me as something not unlike claims that faith healing works.

It is agreed universally that the Human Body fights its own disease to the best of its ability. I've seen no dispute of that. Enhance the human body, give it the resources it needs, you're fighting any disease the human body can fight --which is all of them. There is no quackery. There is nothing new here.

The current Ebola outbreak has a 60% mortality rate (depending on who you talk to). 40% survives. But how did these 40%, or whatever percentage, of these people survive? What is the magic cure they used? The cure-all they used was their own healthy body. The body recognized the disease, despite never having encountered it before, and was able to fight it off. A cure for Ebola!! Magic faith healing quackery, right?

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Do those people still die of pancreatic cancer or not?  If 100% of them lived, I would agree that it is a cure for pancreatic cancer.

People most likely died. Not everyone follows the instructions of their physician to come in twice a week for their injections. Vitamin C IVs, not being FDA approved, is also not covered by insurance, meaning these people would have had to pay for the shots themselves, which can get costly and tempt them to skip treatments or go through some other alternative they read about to spread their chips.
« Last Edit: October 01, 2014, 07:09:50 PM by Tom Bishop »

Ghost of V

Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #57 on: October 01, 2014, 07:05:05 PM »
Things like Vitamin C, Colloidal Silver, Iodine are less harmful than radiation, and have communities around those substances to promote their effectiveness.

Just because a group of people vouch for the beneficial properties of these 'remedies' and 'cure-alls' doesn't mean they actually do anything. In fact, colloidal silver is more dangerous than helpful. Silver builds up in the body and can cause all sorts of adverse reactions, including permanent argyria (blue colored skin).

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #58 on: October 01, 2014, 07:35:10 PM »
This idea that Vitamin C cures all sounds an awful lot like the phosphorus tonic that Dr. Birley used to push back in the day.

(Very bad summation of the immune system's capabilities)

You are assuming, without good evidence, that there is no upper bound to the immune system's ability to fight off infection.  What do you do about infection's that trick the immune system in to thinking that it is not an infection?  What do you do about an infection that kills the immune system?

Technically the explanation for why the sun sets at higher altitudes is also "waves," and whatnot.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Natural Medicine is better than Unnatural Medicine
« Reply #59 on: October 01, 2014, 08:01:42 PM »
Things like Vitamin C, Colloidal Silver, Iodine are less harmful than radiation, and have communities around those substances to promote their effectiveness.

Just because a group of people vouch for the beneficial properties of these 'remedies' and 'cure-alls' doesn't mean they actually do anything. In fact, colloidal silver is more dangerous than helpful. Silver builds up in the body and can cause all sorts of adverse reactions, including permanent argyria (blue colored skin).

Colloidal silver is not, and has never been dangerous. The old kind of Colloidal Silver with the larger particle sizes may have had a risk of turning skin blue if you drank gallons of it, as some people have. But it was never lethal. The modern kind of Colloidal Silver is made with nano-sized silver particles and can flow in and out of cells cleanly. There is no risk of silver building up in the skin. No one has gotten blue skin with modern silver products.

Did you know that Colloidal Silver was the antibiotic of choice before antibiotics were invented? The health benefits of silver had been known for centuries. Royalty and the rich ate and drank from silver utensils and were rarely sick. The Greeks and Romans used to store all of their perishable liquids in silver containers. Prior to the invention of refrigeration, it was common practice to drop a silver coin into a container of milk to retard spoilage. It was used during the Civil War for wound infections.

When the first commercially available antibiotics became available Colloidal Silver was dropped from the medical field like a bag of rocks. There is no profit in Colloidal Silver, and so no reason to give it to people when there is an alternative to profit from. The FDA, a tool of the pharmaceutical companies, engaged in a smear campaign, highlighting the few people who took Colloidal Silver in excess, in an effort to ban the substance from consumer use. But the campaign was too early. There was, and still is, a lot of demand in silver, by survivors of numerous incurable diseases, fueled by catalogs of miraculous survival stories dating hundreds of years, that the product remains on the shelf.

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You are assuming, without good evidence, that there is no upper bound to the immune system's ability to fight off infection.

The upper bounds to the body's ability to fight off disease is unknown, but we know that people with Stage 4 cancer, on their deathbeds and given 2 weeks to live, have seen complete turn around cures via Vitamin C.

Some people at that stage, on the other hand, have not been cured. Whether their immune systems were too weak and crippled by any chemotherapy they had done, the disease, or whether they just didn't get enough Vitamin C, is unknown.

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What do you do about infection's that trick the immune system in to thinking that it is not an infection?  What do you do about an infection that kills the immune system?

Secondly, infections don't trick the immune system into thinking that it is not an infection. This is a falsity of the medical system, used to explain mysteries such as why women can have yeast infections but have normal blood white blood cell counts. If there was infection, white-blood cell counts should be elevated as the body fights off the disease, but this is not seen in a yeast infection.

The body doesn't go into overdrive when there is a yeast infection because it is not an infection, but an overgrowth due to a failing somewhere in the immune system. Yeast is not an opponent, but a friend. The body lives in symbiotic harmony with yeast, and needs it to survive, just like the other kinds of friendly bacteria that live within us. Something in the body which inhibits the yeast failed, usually because resources were diverted to combat another disease, and the yeast overgrew to cause the irritation. The body isn't going crazy to deploy killer T-cells with a fingerprint of the yeast stamped on the homing beacon, because yeast is a friend, there is some risk to doing that, and it has worse things to worry about than some easily reversed smelly irritation that will be resolved once the more dangerous secondary condition is dealt with. By taking Vitamin C, the secondary condition the body is fighting can be resolved and the body can then resort resources to ensure that everything is in balance again.

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What do you do about an infection that kills the immune system?

If your immune system were killed off you would be dead within 20 minutes. Nothing can be done, because you are a gonner.
« Last Edit: October 02, 2014, 05:16:29 AM by Tom Bishop »