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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #20 on: February 19, 2021, 08:26:44 PM »
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I really wish you would take your own advice.  ::) Any projection from three dimensional space onto a two dimensional surface is going to cause distortion, this is what happens on the eye. You can't project the surface of a sphere onto a plane without distorting it, it's just geometrically impossible. Please ask any high school math teacher and they can explain it to you.

Your assertions are simply of poor quality and show a lack of associated knowledge. A retina is not a flat surface at the back of our eyes. It is a concave surface. There is a difference between a flat surface and a concave surface. I would recommend that you educate yourself better on how it works.

Also, cameras which can keep straight lines straight do exist. I am surprised that you do not know this.

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Read your own sources, you keep posting ones that contradict yourself.  From that PDF...

"Howerver, a circular object like a ball or person's head, located near the edge of the frame will appear to be somewhat enlarged and will have an oval shape."

So much for your claim that this lens has no distortions.  Really, you are using an ADVERTISEMENT for a product as your source?  You are literally using what a marketing department wrote and taking it as scientific fact as if they aren't going to simplify and exaggerate their product's abilities. Come on, Tom.

That distortion is immaterial to this discussion. We are not studying the shape of the Moon, we are studying straight line paths across the images.

I'm posting what the manufacturer claims. I have a source. It is clearly possible, and you can easily find many wide angle shots showing straight lines on structures in panoramas. You have no source at all for your claim that it is impossible to keep straight lines as straight. This is just something that you said. Where is your source that it is impossible to keep a straight line straight in a camera image? You keep posting things without source.

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I'll ask a second time since you completely ignored it again, do you not see the similarity to the moon-tilt illusion image from your own Wiki?  It's exactly what is going on, and is obvious.




And I will repeat this for you again: This is a poor argument. By claiming that we see significant distortion in our vision, you are also suggesting that we can move our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions.

You must think that we see the world like this, and that this is what causes it:



If our vision were warped like this then we could just pan our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions to our warped vision, like we could pan the camera that took the above picture around and get those lines on the building to point differently.

We cannot do this by looking around and putting the Moon in different positions. So you're wrong. This argument that the Moon really points at the Sun and that our vision is warped, and that's why the Moon points upwards, is laughable.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 10:43:15 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #21 on: February 19, 2021, 08:28:14 PM »
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I really wish you would take your own advice.  ::) Any projection from three dimensional space onto a two dimensional surface is going to cause distortion, this is what happens on the eye. You can't project the surface of a sphere onto a plane without distorting it, it's just geometrically impossible. Please ask any high school math teacher and they can explain it to you.

Your assertions are trash. A retina is not a flat surface at the back of our eyes. It is a concave surface. There is a difference between a flat surface and a concave surface. I would recommend that you educate yourself better on how it works.

Also, everyone knows that it is possible for there to be a camera lens and configuration that can take a picture of a straight line and keep it straight. Your argument that things are impossible are without merit.

Find me a lens that is 100% distortion free, it doesn't exist.  You are unfamiliar with optics and cameras and are falling for marketing drivel.  All lenses have distortions, even the best, it's just a matter of how small they can get them to be. 

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Read your own sources, you keep posting ones that contradict yourself.  From that PDF...

"Howerver, a circular object like a ball or person's head, located near the edge of the frame will appear to be somewhat enlarged and will have an oval shape."

So much for your claim that this lens has no distortions.  Really, you are using an ADVERTISEMENT for a product as your source?  You are literally using what a marketing department wrote and taking it as scientific fact as if they aren't going to simplify and exaggerate their product's abilities. Come on, Tom.

That distortion is immaterial to this discussion. We are not studying the shape of the Moon, we are studying straight line paths across the images.

You claimed the lens had no distortions, I'm showing you that in your OWN SOURCE that is wrong. That's quite material to the discussion, it's showing your claims and assumptions are incorrect.

I'm posting what the manufacturer claims. I have a source. It is clearly possible, and you can easily find many wide angle shots showing straight lines on structures in panoramas. You have no source at all for you claim that it is impossible to keep straight lines as straight. This is just something that you said. Where is your source that it is impossible to keep a straight line straight in a camera image? You keep posting things without source.

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I'll ask a second time since you completely ignored it again, do you not see the similarity to the moon-tilt illusion image from your own Wiki?  It's exactly what is going on, and is obvious.




And I will repeat this for you again: This is a poor argument. By claiming that we see significant distortion in our vision, you are also suggesting that we can move our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions.

You calling it a poor argument doesn't make it so.

I'm replicating EXACTLY the moon-tilt illusion with my own light source and camera.  Are you claiming those two pictures are nothing alike?  Both show curving light paths, both show shadows going in directions other than straight from the source. It should be obvious to anyone looking at it.

And I am not suggesting we can make the moon 'point in a variety of different directions', that is entirely your own confusion speaking there. 

I'm showing you exactly what causes the moon-tilt illusion.  I can draw arrows and lines on it if that would help you understand it.

You must think that we see the world like this, and that this is what causes it:



If our vision were warped like this then we could just pan our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions to our warped vision, like we could pan the camera that took that picutre around and get those lines to point differently.

We cannot do this by looking around and putting the Moon in different positions. So you're wrong.

Now this is pretty funny because yes, that is what is projected on our retinas, a distorted view of the world that our brains correct into the images that we 'see'.  You are ignoring all the processing of the raw image data that our retinas detect.  Do you think that our eyeballs are the entirety of our visual perception?  There is a rather substantial portion of our brains devoted to vision you know.

We see straight lines as curves the further from the center of our retina they get, and for very long lines, like across the entire sky, it gets very curved indeed.

As you yourself pointed out, the retina is curved, and what happens to a straight line projected onto a curved surface I wonder? 

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2021, 09:52:24 PM »
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You claimed the lens had no distortions, I'm showing you that in your OWN SOURCE that is wrong. That's quite material to the discussion, it's showing your claims and assumptions are incorrect.

I didn't say anything about the lenses having no possible distortions in this thread. Stop fibbing. I said that rectilinear lenses keep straight lines straight. From the manufacturer's document:



The important piece is the first part, which says that rectilinear lenses keep straight lines as straight.

Here is what I posted:

Quote from: Tom Bishop
Quote from: JSS
The simple explanation is that wide angle images either from a camera or the human eye will result in a distorted image.

This is a third explanation for the Moon Tilt Illusion. But this argument is so bad that the Wiki does not bother to address it.

"Wide Angle" does not mandate distortion. Human vision is wide angle and rectilinear, meaning that straight lines stay straight. There are also many wide angle lenses which are rectilinear and can keep straight lines straight.

With human vision we see the world as wide angle and without much distortion. The quote from the manufacturer says that the rectilinear lens is different from human vision and that there will be some stretching. In regards to straight lines across the image the rectilinear lens provides the best representation of human vision, however.

This is the subject we are concerned with, whether it is possible to keep straight lines straight in a wide angle lens. It is possible. I don't know where you got your information that wide angle lenses will always introduce distortion into a straight line, but it's wrong. It clearly says:

"A rectilinear wide angle lens on the other hand renders all straight lines in the subject as straight lines in the image"

See that? That means you are wrong. It specifically says that it preserves straight lines. This is the purpose of a rectilinear lens.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2021, 03:04:37 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2021, 10:10:05 PM »
You must think that we see the world like this, and that this is what causes it:



If our vision were warped like this then we could just pan our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions to our warped vision, like we could pan the camera that took that picutre around and get those lines to point differently.

We cannot do this by looking around and putting the Moon in different positions. So you're wrong.

Now this is pretty funny because yes, that is what is projected on our retinas, a distorted view of the world that our brains correct into the images that we 'see'.  You are ignoring all the processing of the raw image data that our retinas detect.  Do you think that our eyeballs are the entirety of our visual perception?  There is a rather substantial portion of our brains devoted to vision you know.

We see straight lines as curves the further from the center of our retina they get, and for very long lines, like across the entire sky, it gets very curved indeed.

As you yourself pointed out, the retina is curved, and what happens to a straight line projected onto a curved surface I wonder?

And we see that your argument has devolved into the nonsense that it is. You are introducing absurdities of how the retina works without reference, based on what you "think" is happening. Now you are claiming gibberish about either our eyes or brains turning the Moon to point upwards.  ::)

Why doesn't our brain also turn the Moon to be parallel with the horizon or point downwards when the moon is in the center or bottom of our vision? This "explanation" based on distortion inherent in vision or the brain is untenable and just gets continuously desperate the more you double down on this effect.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 10:25:29 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2021, 10:13:21 PM »
The Moon Tilt Illusion is a good one to look at in depth, and is easily accessible - https://wiki.tfes.org/Moon_Tilt_Illusion

Yes, the Moon Tilt Illusion is really easy to work with and all you need is a ping pong ball - cheap, simple, inexpensive. You also need a view of the Sun and the waxing or waning gibbous Moon in the sky at the same time, which is quite easy this weekend not long before sunset - it's a good time to demonstrate the illusion of the Moon's shadow line (called the terminator line - the transition from lit area to unlit area) appearing to be out of line with the direction to the Sun. The references quoted in the wiki article Tom mentions explain the appearance quite well.

So which way should the line show to the Sun? First of all, do a little investigation nearer home: stand with the Sun at right angles to where you're facing. Let's say the Sun is off to your left and you then hold the ping pong ball, between finger and thumb, in front of you at eye level: you will see the ball half lit and half in shadow and a right angle from the shadow line across the lit area will point back to the Sun at your left.



Next try facing the Sun and hold the ball between your knees so you're looking straight down at it: you will again see the ball half lit, half in shadow and a right angle from the shadow line across the lit area will point back to the Sun in front of you. Stand with your back to the Sun and hold the ball directly above your head: again the half-lit, half-shadowed appearance and you now know which way the shadow line indicates towards the Sun behind you.

Now the fun starts: stand with the Sun behind one shoulder and look at the shadow line on the ball at eye level: the ball now appears more lit than unlit but the shadow line still shows the correct direction back towards the Sun. Note that it's only your viewpoint that has changed, which is why you see more of the lit area than the unlit. Now move the ball down to about waist height and you'll see the shadow line seems to show the Sun is now lower in the sky, perhaps even showing the Sun is below ground level! Has the light suddenly changed direction? No...

With the Sun still behind your shoulder, hold the ball above eye level and the shadow line now indicates the Sun is higher in the sky than before. So has the light again changed direction? No: move the ball back to eye level and turn to face at right angles to the Sun and the shadow line will again show the correct direction!

So at what position will the shadow line on the ball match the shadow line on the Moon? Move the ball around and compare: up, down, left and right until the two match: move the ball closer and further away from your eye too to see if that makes any difference. spoiler: the ball's shadow line and the Moon's shadow line will match when the ball is in line between your eye and the Moon.




So is the Moon's shadow tilted away from where it 'should' be? Do we need an esoteric light-bending explanation for this? No, we don't. Feel free to draw your own conclusions about Electromagnetic Acceleration (EA) after you've done the experiment
Once again - you assume that the centre of the video is the centre of the camera's frame. We know that this isn't the case.

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Offline stack

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2021, 10:32:26 PM »
The string experiment is unable to distinguish whether something is pointing at something else.



From a ground level angle:



We can connect a string between them. The Purple Cone must be pointing at the Sun. ::)

Why would you think the cone is pointing at the sun. It is clearly pointing away from it if you add a little contrast to show that it is a 3D cone and not sort of a just a triangle:


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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2021, 10:44:04 PM »
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You claimed the lens had no distortions, I'm showing you that in your OWN SOURCE that is wrong. That's quite material to the discussion, it's showing your claims and assumptions are incorrect.

I didn't say anything about the lenses having no possible distortions in this thread. Stop lying. I said that rectilinear lenses keep straight lines straight. From the manufacturer's document:

Tom, what do you think distortions do to straight lines?  ::)

All lenses distort, all lenses curve lines even if that curve is difficult to measure. It's still there. It can't work any other way, please refer to basic geometry. Or ask a photographer. I own several expensive lenses designed to be distortion free and they ALMOST are, but even they show visible bending at the corners.

Please don't believe every press release and marketing brochure you read... they do exaggerate claims you know.  Blindly repeating stuff you read in an advertisement is going to lead you to being misinformed like you are.

The facts are as plain as day, the moon-tilt illusion is not real, as shown by my replicating the effect.  It took me all of 2 minutes to do this.

You still have no answer as to why my experiment isn't valid.  It shows the exact same effect as the moon-tilt illusion and you have given no reason why we can't see the same thing with the Sun and Moon.


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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2021, 10:48:14 PM »
You must think that we see the world like this, and that this is what causes it:



If our vision were warped like this then we could just pan our head around and get the Moon to point in a variety of different directions to our warped vision, like we could pan the camera that took that picutre around and get those lines to point differently.

We cannot do this by looking around and putting the Moon in different positions. So you're wrong.

Now this is pretty funny because yes, that is what is projected on our retinas, a distorted view of the world that our brains correct into the images that we 'see'.  You are ignoring all the processing of the raw image data that our retinas detect.  Do you think that our eyeballs are the entirety of our visual perception?  There is a rather substantial portion of our brains devoted to vision you know.

We see straight lines as curves the further from the center of our retina they get, and for very long lines, like across the entire sky, it gets very curved indeed.

As you yourself pointed out, the retina is curved, and what happens to a straight line projected onto a curved surface I wonder?

And we see that your argument has devolved into the nonsense that it is. You are introducing absurdities of how the retina works without reference, based on what you "think" is happening. Now you are claiming gibberish about either our eyes or brains turning the Moon to point upwards.  ::)

Why doesn't our brain also turn the Moon to be parallel with the horizon or point downwards when the moon is in the center or bottom of our vision? This "explanation" based on distortion inherent in vision or the brain is untenable and just gets continuously desperate the more you double down on this effect.

No, Tom I am not.  You're the ones making these claims and trying to attribute them to me. Don't put words in my mouth just because you can't ague with what I am actually saying.

Our eyes do not see the world perfectly, our brain does it's best to compensate but sometimes gets things wrong.

What do you think illusions are, Tom?  Things we see that are not real because our brains are tricked into seeing them.  Why do you think illusions work, or do you think they are all lies?  ::)

Why not look up how the human vision system works, you will find there is a lot going on.  I'm not sure how you think it all works, but clearly you are missing a great deal of it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #28 on: February 19, 2021, 10:59:28 PM »
The string experiment is unable to distinguish whether something is pointing at something else.



From a ground level angle:



We can connect a string between them. The Purple Cone must be pointing at the Sun. ::)

Why would you think the cone is pointing at the sun. It is clearly pointing away from it if you add a little contrast to show that it is a 3D cone and not sort of a just a triangle:



This point of discussion is poor. There are no such reference points with the Moon.





Wow! We can connect a string between them. The illuminated portion of the Moon must be pointed at the Sun. ::)
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #29 on: February 19, 2021, 11:01:00 PM »
This point of discussion is poor. There are no such reference points with the Moon.

Yes there is, it's the terminator and you draw a line perpendicular out from it and it will meet the Sun. We have mentioned this several times, did you forget, or not understand it?

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #30 on: February 19, 2021, 11:06:41 PM »
The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the Moon is not coming from the Sun's direction. This is the crux of the issue and what you are failing to address.

http://www.astropix.com/html/l_story/moonill.html



“ Now, I have always under the impression that if you took the Moon's phase illumination angle it would draw a line straight back to the sun. But this sure wasn't what I thought I saw this day.

Obviously, it's an illusion that has something to do with a three-dimensional space being projected onto a two-dimensional plane in my eyeballs. Some people have tried to explain it as involving great circles, just as airplanes fly great circle routes to places on the opposite side of the globe. However they only do this because they can't fly a straight line through the Earth.

What I can't seem to get past is that the Sun and the Moon were in the same field together and I could view them both at the same time and that the light from the Sun is going in a straight line from the Sun to the Moon. It is not following a great circle. ”
« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:09:51 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #31 on: February 19, 2021, 11:20:05 PM »
The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the Moon is not coming from the Sun's direction. This is the crux of the issue and what you are failing to address.

http://www.astropix.com/html/l_story/moonill.html



Tom, I'm addressing that exact issue.

Did you not see this picture I took? 

The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the lampshade is not coming from the flashlights's direction

It's exactly the same as the picture above.

How do you not understand this?   ???


Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #32 on: February 19, 2021, 11:27:28 PM »
Wow! We can connect a string between them. The illuminated portion of the Moon must be pointed at the Sun. ::)
That continues to be a false equivalence.
Because light travels in straight lines, not in crazy U bends like it would have to for your example to be valid.
So in your diagram if the terminator was as you have it then the “sun” can’t be illuminating the moon, unless light is taking some crazy path which in real life it does not.
In real life light travels in straight lines so the line perpendicular to the terminator must point at the light source. The string experiment demonstrates that it does, contrary to how it appears. It proves that the apparent misalignment is simply an optical illusion.

Can you please explain the FE explanation for this illusion with a diagram and show how this is a prediction of EA as your Wiki claims.
Your inability to do this is telling.

Perhaps you could
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #33 on: February 19, 2021, 11:30:13 PM »
The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the Moon is not coming from the Sun's direction. This is the crux of the issue and what you are failing to address.

http://www.astropix.com/html/l_story/moonill.html



Tom, I'm addressing that exact issue.

Did you not see this picture I took? 

The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the lampshade is not coming from the flashlights's direction

It's exactly the same as the picture above.

How do you not understand this?   ???



The light is curving because one of those pictures was taken with a distorted lens.

If we saw the world with distortion then the direction of the the moon's illuminated area would change direction depending on where it was in our visual field. Yet, this is not the case.

« Last Edit: February 19, 2021, 11:35:31 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #34 on: February 19, 2021, 11:47:31 PM »
If we saw distortion in our visual field it should also be testable. You should be able to see a pencil in your visual field point in various directions based on where it was.



Clearly, this is nonsense.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline stack

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #35 on: February 19, 2021, 11:55:00 PM »
The string experiment is unable to distinguish whether something is pointing at something else.



From a ground level angle:



We can connect a string between them. The Purple Cone must be pointing at the Sun. ::)

Why would you think the cone is pointing at the sun. It is clearly pointing away from it if you add a little contrast to show that it is a 3D cone and not sort of a just a triangle:



This point of discussion is poor. There are no such reference points with the Moon.

Then why did you use a cone with its pointy reference point and falsely claim it was pointing at the ball? Seems like you kicked off the poor discussion with your poor example.

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #36 on: February 20, 2021, 12:08:46 AM »
The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the Moon is not coming from the Sun's direction. This is the crux of the issue and what you are failing to address.

http://www.astropix.com/html/l_story/moonill.html



Tom, I'm addressing that exact issue.

Did you not see this picture I took? 

The terminator actually suggests that the light source which illuminates the lampshade is not coming from the flashlights's direction

It's exactly the same as the picture above.

How do you not understand this?   ???



The light is curving because one of those pictures was taken with a distorted lens.

Yes, you are so close to getting it!

The light curves in one picture because of lens distortions, so the light could be curving in the other because of... what?

Also lens distortions!

If we saw the world with distortion then the direction of the the moon's illuminated area would change direction depending on where it was in our visual field. Yet, this is not the case.

You are again ignoring the fact that our brains are doing a large amount of processing on what our eyes send it.  You keep ignoring all the optical illusions that can fool our senses... why is it so impossible for you to believe that's the case here as well when it's been proven with my example images that such illusions are possible?



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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #37 on: February 20, 2021, 12:56:19 AM »
Oh, so our brain makes the Moon rotate but nothing else that we can test. Clearly, your deductive powers are amazing.

This explanation might seem good and well in your mind, but this is clearly more objective nonsense from you. I would suggest working with your RE friends to get your act together and come up with a compelling argument that doesn't rely on tricks the brain plays on us with the Moon but is otherwise untestable.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Iceman

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #38 on: February 20, 2021, 01:00:15 AM »
There was a pretty compelling argument with two fingers and a ping pong ball, but we're just going to ignore that again I guess

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Offline JSS

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Re: Simple Experiments
« Reply #39 on: February 20, 2021, 01:06:14 AM »
Oh, so our brain makes the Moon rotate but nothing else that we can test. Clearly, your deductive powers are amazing.

This explanation might seem good and well in your mind, but this is clearly more objective nonsense from you. I would suggest getting your act together and work with your RE friends on a  compelling argument that doesn't rely on tricks the brain plays on us with the Moon but is otherwise untestable.

No To, you are the only one who is confused and thinking 'our brain makes the Moon rotate'.  That's your statement, not anyone elses.

I'm not sure if you haven't been paying attention but we CAN test this.  The string test works fine, and I'll see if I can't perform some other tests on my own when I can see the Sun again. 

And as I have shown many times, I did a test with my camera to duplicate the moon-tilt illusion, and it worked. It shows EXACTLY what other photos of the Sun and Moon show. That's compelling evidence to anyone with working deductive powers.

It's all quite testable, and has been tested, and has shown that the Moon's terminator does in fact line up with the Sun.

If your only arguments is putting words in peoples mouths and ignoring posted evidence, then perhaps you should admit defeat on this one.