Peter Winfield

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #20 on: February 25, 2021, 02:01:59 PM »
In regards to distances and a true map of the earth, that one is difficult to determine since planes adjust their path to find the quickest winds between any two points, which may be faster in one region than another. There are clearly multiple variables at play in that one - https://wiki.tfes.org/Issues_in_Flight_Analysis

Accurate maps existed long before aeroplanes were invented based on ground observations alone. Many countries have Triangulation Stations (Survey Markers, Trig Points) that could easily be used to re-create an accurate map of those parts of the flat Earth.

Three points:

1) If the Earth is flat it would be easy to create a map of the flat Earth
2) If the Earth is not flat it would be impossible to create a map of the flat Earth
3) There is no map of the flat Earth

Offline Action80

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #21 on: February 25, 2021, 04:17:12 PM »
If the map is flat and it shows the entire earth, it is a flat earth map.

It is a flat map of the Earth, not a map of the flat Earth.

There is no map of the entire flat Earth.
If the earth is flat and you can see all of it on a single depiction, then yes, it is a flat earth map.

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2021, 04:49:26 PM »
If the map is flat and it shows the entire earth, it is a flat earth map.

It is a flat map of the Earth, not a map of the flat Earth.

There is no map of the entire flat Earth.
If the earth is flat and you can see all of it on a single depiction, then yes, it is a flat earth map.

Big, if true!
Th*rk is the worst person on this website.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #23 on: February 25, 2021, 04:56:02 PM »
If the earth is flat and you can see all of it on a single depiction, then yes, it is a flat earth map.

Nobody cares how flat a map is.

How accurate is your map? Does it accurately portray the size and shapes of the continents in the southern hemisphere?
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Offline jimster

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #24 on: February 25, 2021, 06:16:16 PM »
What I am saying, without the word map, so definition is irrelevant:

You can't draw a representation of physical locations on earth on a flat sheet of paper without distortion, where all distances are proportionate, all directions are the same, and the scale is constantr. The error is unnoticeable in a map of a city. minor in the map of a state, noticeable in a map of a country, and quite pronounced in a map of the entire earth. This is why google earth shows flat map when looking at a small area and as you zoom out it becomes a sphere. Flat maps are easier to use, and for small areas, the error is small and ignorable. For the entire earth, as the area expands, so does the error.

For the rest of this post, I will use the word "map" because writing "scaled down physical representation of features of the earth with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale" is too much to write to avoid the escape hatch of "what exactly is a map?"

This is why the FAQ maps all have Australia wider than USA. If you centered the map on the south pole, you get the opposite problem, Australia is much smaller than it should be and USA is too large:

https://emapsworld.com/world-south-pole-azimuthal-equidistant-projection-map.html

There is no flat map of the earth with constant scale that can accurately represent continents. Gauss's "Remarkable Theorem" mathematically proves that you can't transform a curved surface onto a flat one without distortion of distances, direction, and/or constant scale.

If you draw a map on a sphere, peel it off, and lay it out on a flat surface, it will stretch or tear, never can it have the same distance and direction. The earth is either flat or round, the map can't be right for both. All the FAQ maps have Australia too big. The size of Australia and USA are correctly proportional to their size as measured on a globe map.

Draw a picture on an orange and carefully peel it and then smash it flat. Your drawing will be either ripped apart or stretched, but your picture can't be flat, intact, and identical to what it was before peeling, no matter how careful you are.

If the earth was flat, it would be impossible to make a globe with accurate distance and direction and constant scale. Australia and USA are the size that gps, google, odometer, airline schedule, US Geodetic survey, etc say they are. No flat map has Australia and USA in correct size relationship.

Show me a flat map of the earth and I will show you a problem with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale. The map part of the FAQ should say "We have no flat map with accurate distance, direction, and constant scale."



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Offline stack

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #25 on: February 25, 2021, 06:51:14 PM »
I think you should publish your flat earth map, if the directions and distances are correct with constant scale. Many FE maps have been made, but all have problems with direction and distance.
Every map ever used by anyone on the face of the planet has been flat and the people using them have had great success.

According to the dictionary you are wrong.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/globe

Quote
1. Usually the globe . the planet Earth.
2. a planet or other celestial body.
3. a sphere on which is depicted a map of the earth (terrestrial globe ) or of the heavens (celestial globe ).

Maps do not have to be flat.  You can buy one here if you want proof that they actually exist.

"Replogle Odessa - Blue Ocean 2-Way Map, Illuminated World Globe, Raised Relief, Up-to-Date Cartography, Made in USA"

https://www.amazon.com/Replogle-85391-Odessa-World-Globe/dp/B06WWMYRNK/
A globe is not a map.

No one uses a globe to navigate.

I do.


Offline jimster

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #26 on: February 25, 2021, 09:51:54 PM »
I would define a map as a scaled down representation of objects and their spatial relationships on some surface.

The spatial relationships (direction and distance) of cities, mountains, shoreline, etc can be scaled down and represented on a sphere without changing the direction and (scaled down) distance of these features on a sphere.

If you attempt to do this on a flat surface as in the FAQ maps, it is impossible to avoid distorting the distance and direction. On north polar projection such as the FAQ maps, the distortion will be that the southern hemisphere objects are too big, and northern hemisphere is too small. only at the equator will size be correct.

You can make a scaled down model of the earth that has everything in the proper direction and (scaled) distance on a sphere. You can't do that on a plane. The maps in the FAQ always have Australia wider than USA. I have many reasons to believe that USA is wider than Australia, and none to believe the opposite.

Offline Action80

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #27 on: February 26, 2021, 11:44:10 AM »
I think you should publish your flat earth map, if the directions and distances are correct with constant scale. Many FE maps have been made, but all have problems with direction and distance.
Every map ever used by anyone on the face of the planet has been flat and the people using them have had great success.

According to the dictionary you are wrong.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/globe

Quote
1. Usually the globe . the planet Earth.
2. a planet or other celestial body.
3. a sphere on which is depicted a map of the earth (terrestrial globe ) or of the heavens (celestial globe ).

Maps do not have to be flat.  You can buy one here if you want proof that they actually exist.

"Replogle Odessa - Blue Ocean 2-Way Map, Illuminated World Globe, Raised Relief, Up-to-Date Cartography, Made in USA"

https://www.amazon.com/Replogle-85391-Odessa-World-Globe/dp/B06WWMYRNK/
A globe is not a map.

No one uses a globe to navigate.

I do.


No, you don't.

You do not use a globe to navigate.

You use either a flat map or Google Maps or another phone app to navigate.

Offline Action80

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #28 on: February 26, 2021, 11:45:19 AM »
If the earth is flat and you can see all of it on a single depiction, then yes, it is a flat earth map.

Nobody cares how flat a map is.

How accurate is your map? Does it accurately portray the size and shapes of the continents in the southern hemisphere?
It does if I am traveling in that area.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #29 on: February 26, 2021, 12:50:11 PM »
Nobody cares how flat a map is.

How accurate is your map? Does it accurately portray the size and shapes of the continents in the southern hemisphere?
It does if I am traveling in that area.

So your map of Australia is only accurate when you're in Australia?  When you're in North America, Australia returns to a malformed continent that we can't measure.

Your map of the Southern Hemisphere continents is either accurate or it is not.

For all your self-righteous lecturing and angry cursing, your map still cannot tell us accurately the size and shape of the Australian continent.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Peter Winfield

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #30 on: February 26, 2021, 02:04:02 PM »
How accurate is your map? Does it accurately portray the size and shapes of the continents in the southern hemisphere?
It does if I am traveling in that area.

On this accurate map that shows the entire Earth, what are the diameters of the Equator and Tropics? Nearest 500Km will do.

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #31 on: February 26, 2021, 04:23:47 PM »
Hi Peter,

I'm not sure how this conversation developed into a maps topic but here goes.

On a standard pole centered azimuthal equidistant projection map like you see in the Wiki, the distances are the same as they say they are.  25,000 miles around the equator etc. 

In terms of what the world looks like, there is considerable distortion when making any map that deviates from the original shape of the object.

The map above I believe crushes the bottom half of the southern hemisphere and therefore loses land mass.  The northern hemisphere gets stretched around the map which adds landmass.  And there may be variations of this distortion im not aware of.

For my own map, I used the south centered azimuthal equi. Projection.  Then halved the distance between latitudes from everything 30n down.  I kept 30 - 60n as is, and increased the space between 60n - 90n by 50%

Please see the ttached photo.  I estimate the equator to be about 21,333 miles, 30n about 28k, and 30s at 13,333miles.

You can reference Australia for the distance like I did which I have down at 3000 miles across.

« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 04:31:59 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

Peter Winfield

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #32 on: February 26, 2021, 05:04:27 PM »
I'm not sure how this conversation developed into a maps topic but here goes.

All topics end up as a maps topic in the end :)

Please see the attached photo.  I estimate the equator to be about 21,333 miles, tropic of cancer about 28k, and Capricorn at 13,333miles.

OK, so one Tropic is more than 2x the length of the other, with the Equator in the middle. And if you stand on any one of these at the right time of year, the Sun will pass directly overhead and then pass directly overhead again exactly 24 hours later. And because the length of these three circles is different, the Sun must be travelling at different speeds in order to make it back to the start at the same time. So the speed of the Sun much be constantly changing throughout the year. And we are not talking about small changes in speed. The Sun must move twice as fast at the December solstice as it does at the June solstice.

The problem is that the Sun very clearly doesn't' change speeds throughout the year, not least because it would change the length of the day.

There is also the small fact that it would be pretty easy to measure each Tropic with sufficient accuracy to show that one is (or is not) twice the length of the other.

So the reason that maps keep coming up is that it is not possible to make an accurate map of the flat Earth because of simple geometric problems like this. Another obvious issue is the difference between the length of the Equator (40,000Km) and the distance from Equator to North Pole (10,000Km). Pi does not equal 40,000/20,000.

Offline Action80

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2021, 06:20:45 PM »
Nobody cares how flat a map is.

How accurate is your map? Does it accurately portray the size and shapes of the continents in the southern hemisphere?
It does if I am traveling in that area.

So your map of Australia is only accurate when you're in Australia?  When you're in North America, Australia returns to a malformed continent that we can't measure.

Your map of the Southern Hemisphere continents is either accurate or it is not.

For all your self-righteous lecturing and angry cursing, your map still cannot tell us accurately the size and shape of the Australian continent.
The map I utilize certainly does verify accurately the size and shape of Australia.

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Offline Dr Van Nostrand

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2021, 06:24:49 PM »
The map I utilize certainly does verify accurately the size and shape of Australia.

Excellent, that's what we're all here for. Show us your map of the Flat Earth that accurately depicts the size and shape of Australia.
Round Earther patiently looking for a better deal...

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2021, 07:15:46 PM »
I'm not sure how this conversation developed into a maps topic but here goes.

All topics end up as a maps topic in the end :)

Please see the attached photo.  I estimate the equator to be about 21,333 miles, tropic of cancer about 28k, and Capricorn at 13,333miles.

OK, so one Tropic is more than 2x the length of the other, with the Equator in the middle. And if you stand on any one of these at the right time of year, the Sun will pass directly overhead and then pass directly overhead again exactly 24 hours later. And because the length of these three circles is different, the Sun must be travelling at different speeds in order to make it back to the start at the same time. So the speed of the Sun much be constantly changing throughout the year. And we are not talking about small changes in speed. The Sun must move twice as fast at the December solstice as it does at the June solstice.

Peter, I'm sorry this wasn't clear, but I believe the Sun is centered and stationary over the south pole, but the earth tilts towards the sun at an angle to explain its position directly over the equator and tropics.  The sun doesn't change speed, but its apparent speed changes depending on how far away you are from it.  And you are aware this is a Antarctica centered projection?  The distance the sun travels in winter is shorter then in summer

The problem is that the Sun very clearly doesn't' change speeds throughout the year, not least because it would change the length of the day.

There is also the small fact that it would be pretty easy to measure each Tropic with sufficient accuracy to show that one is (or is not) twice the length of the other.

that's not totally true.  If you attempted to fly over the equator and tropics it would be A lot of water which is not an easy frame of reference

So the reason that maps keep coming up is that it is not possible to make an accurate map of the flat Earth because of simple geometric problems like this. Another obvious issue is the difference between the length of the Equator (40,000Km) and the distance from Equator to North Pole (10,000Km). Pi does not equal 40,000/20,000.

In this map, it is about 16cm around and 5cm across.  16/5 = 3.2 which is close to Pi.  Or, 21,333 miles around the equator, divided by 6,666 miles in diameter which equals 3.2

I really enjoyed your critique of a flat map, but the details in this map are what sets it apart.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 07:26:38 PM by MetaTron »
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Offline stack

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2021, 07:24:15 PM »
I think you should publish your flat earth map, if the directions and distances are correct with constant scale. Many FE maps have been made, but all have problems with direction and distance.
Every map ever used by anyone on the face of the planet has been flat and the people using them have had great success.

According to the dictionary you are wrong.

https://www.dictionary.com/browse/globe

Quote
1. Usually the globe . the planet Earth.
2. a planet or other celestial body.
3. a sphere on which is depicted a map of the earth (terrestrial globe ) or of the heavens (celestial globe ).

Maps do not have to be flat.  You can buy one here if you want proof that they actually exist.

"Replogle Odessa - Blue Ocean 2-Way Map, Illuminated World Globe, Raised Relief, Up-to-Date Cartography, Made in USA"

https://www.amazon.com/Replogle-85391-Odessa-World-Globe/dp/B06WWMYRNK/
A globe is not a map.

No one uses a globe to navigate.

I do.


No, you don't.

You do not use a globe to navigate.

You use either a flat map or Google Maps or another phone app to navigate.

Why are you telling me what I use and what I don't use? How would you know? Rather presumptuous of you.

I use Google maps in Globe mode when navigating. I may zoom in and out, but it's still in globe mode. Try it, you may get to where you want to be going.

And if someone is using Google maps in non-Globe mode, it's still a Mercator projection, which is a projection of a globe. Here's how the Mercator projection from a globe works:


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Offline stack

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2021, 07:49:34 PM »
I'm not sure how this conversation developed into a maps topic but here goes.

All topics end up as a maps topic in the end :)

Please see the attached photo.  I estimate the equator to be about 21,333 miles, tropic of cancer about 28k, and Capricorn at 13,333miles.

OK, so one Tropic is more than 2x the length of the other, with the Equator in the middle. And if you stand on any one of these at the right time of year, the Sun will pass directly overhead and then pass directly overhead again exactly 24 hours later. And because the length of these three circles is different, the Sun must be travelling at different speeds in order to make it back to the start at the same time. So the speed of the Sun much be constantly changing throughout the year. And we are not talking about small changes in speed. The Sun must move twice as fast at the December solstice as it does at the June solstice.

Peter, I'm sorry this wasn't clear, but I believe the Sun is centered and stationary over the south pole, but the earth tilts towards the sun at an angle to explain its position directly over the equator and tropics.  The sun doesn't change speed, but its apparent speed changes depending on how far away you are from it.  And you are aware this is a Antarctica centered projection?  The distance the sun travels in winter is shorter then in summer

The problem is that the Sun very clearly doesn't' change speeds throughout the year, not least because it would change the length of the day.

There is also the small fact that it would be pretty easy to measure each Tropic with sufficient accuracy to show that one is (or is not) twice the length of the other.

that's not totally true.  If you attempted to fly over the equator and tropics it would be A lot of water which is not an easy frame of reference

So the reason that maps keep coming up is that it is not possible to make an accurate map of the flat Earth because of simple geometric problems like this. Another obvious issue is the difference between the length of the Equator (40,000Km) and the distance from Equator to North Pole (10,000Km). Pi does not equal 40,000/20,000.

In this map, it is about 16cm around and 5cm across.  16/5 = 3.2 which is close to Pi.  Or, 21,333 miles around the equator, divided by 6,666 miles in diameter which equals 3.2

I really enjoyed your critique of a flat map, but the details in this map are what sets it apart.

The devil is always in the details. The problem you still have is that some of your distances don't comport with reality. Remember this exchange:

Quote
On your map, how far is it from Santiago, Chile to Cape Town, South Africa?

It should be 1/2 the normal distance about 2,500 miles

So doesn't that call into question the accuracy of your map?

You never answered the question, if your distances don't match reality doesn't that call into question the accuracy of your map?

Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2021, 09:00:22 PM »
Okay, wow, you found that conversation I've been agonizing over.   Its actually closer to 3,333miles using Australia as a benchmark From Santiago Chile to Cape Town (Please as usual point out something anomolis).

Distances are a bit confusing to work out.  You have a globe which is compressed and stretched into a flat map by removing the 3D sphere which then uses the same distances, but not really.  That's why Peter rightfully pointed out that Pi doesn't work on this flat map because you are using distances from a Globe Earth. 

But when I removed a second lens (or mini dome) from the standard flat map to make this, I just used acceptable distances like Australia to calculate other distances.
Is the Earth flat and sky is round?  Or is the Earth round and the sky flat?

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Offline stack

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Re: An Idea for the flat earth cover-up
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2021, 09:55:02 PM »
Okay, wow, you found that conversation I've been agonizing over.   Its actually closer to 3,333miles using Australia as a benchmark From Santiago Chile to Cape Town (Please as usual point out something anomolis).

The anomaly with your map is that 3333 miles is still 1600 miles short of reality.



Distances are a bit confusing to work out.  You have a globe which is compressed and stretched into a flat map by removing the 3D sphere which then uses the same distances, but not really.  That's why Peter rightfully pointed out that Pi doesn't work on this flat map because you are using distances from a Globe Earth. 

But when I removed a second lens (or mini dome) from the standard flat map to make this, I just used acceptable distances like Australia to calculate other distances.

Distances are a bit confusing. But one of the core elements of what makes a map useful for navigation is obviously accuracy in distances. Without that, you don't have a working, useful, accurate map. If a plane only carried enough fuel to travel what you think is the distance using your map, this would happen:



Calculating fuel is an extremely important task for every flight. There's an infamous story of an Air Canada flight where the pilots calculated the fuel amount with pounds instead of by metric kilos by mistake. They actually had only half the fuel they needed for the flight from Montreal to Edmonton. They landed somewhat safely after gliding for 17 minutes from 40k feet when all engines cut out and fortunately found a runway.

So how do you reconcile the distance inaccuracies in your map?