Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #20 on: August 12, 2020, 10:08:40 PM »
Sounds like TDS to me.

This is always the lazy response from people like you who are suffering from a different type of TDS where you actually can't admit that anything Trump does or says is wrong, and just don't seem to care that he constantly lies to you.

The article you posted says:

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Don’t get me wrong, Trump lies all the time. He said that he “enacted the biggest tax cuts and reforms in American history” (actually they are the eighth largest) and that “our economy is the strongest it’s ever been in the history of our country” (which may one day be true, but not yet). In part, it’s a New York thing — everything is the biggest and the best.

You "accidentally" left that bit out, I notice.

So no, not two different views, they're talking about two different things.
I will say one thing, which is what that first article is saying, Trump does do what he says he's going to do, or tries to.
And in some ways that is refreshing, although it's not something I'm pleased about because I disagree with most of his policies.

But to say that he's honest is laughable, he lies constantly. Do you honestly not see that or do you just not care?
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #21 on: August 12, 2020, 10:33:01 PM »
Writers at the liberal Washington Post, which disparages Trump's victory even at the top of their page, have said that "Trump could be the most honest president in modern history"

.. .and the very next sentence in the article says "Don’t get me wrong, Trump lies all the time. " and states he's only honest in terms of executing policies he said he would (or trying to). The article describes this as the "barometer of presidential truthfullness", but ... it's not. Not really.
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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2020, 10:41:36 PM »
Writers at the liberal Washington Post, which disparages Trump's victory even at the top of their page, have said that "Trump could be the most honest president in modern history"

.. .and the very next sentence in the article says "Don’t get me wrong, Trump lies all the time. " and states he's only honest in terms of executing policies he said he would (or trying to). The article describes this as the "barometer of presidential truthfullness", but ... it's not. Not really.

And only honest at that to things he didn't lie about.

Remember his awesome health care plan he claimed had which turned out to be... having no idea what to do?

So he is good at carrying out the plans he isn't lying about.  Good luck knowing which is which ahead of time.

He also said he would release his tax returns.  Liar.

He also said if he was elected he would be too busy to golf.  Liar.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2020, 11:22:12 PM »
The example given about "biggest tax cuts and reforms" would just be being incorrect about something. Or possibly some interpretation that it was the biggest based on the details of what was actually done. Maybe someone thinks one variable matters more than another to count as best. Not truly a lie, in either case.

And the author suggests that those don't matter.

The author says:

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But whether one agrees or disagrees is not the point. When Trump says he will do something, you can take it to the bank. Yes, he takes liberties with the truth. But unlike his predecessor, he did not pass his signature legislative achievement on the basis of a lie (“If you like your health care plan, you can keep it ”) — which is clearly worse than falsely bragging that your tax cut is the biggest ever.

Liberties with the "truth" is really just one's interpretation of the truth, and not really a lie if it disagrees with your interpretation. Implying that a particular person is a criminal isn't a lie. Being wrong about something isn't a lie. You just disagree with his interpretation.

Calling himself the best can technically have some truth value to it, which is why it is legal for a business to call itself the 'x town's best sandwich shop' without running afoul of false advertising laws. Someone might think that. Two different restaurant review periodicals might say that about different restaurants in the same city.

Point is that the main meter is that Trump says he will do something and Trump does it. A truthful, reliable President.

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Remember his awesome health care plan he claimed had which turned out to be... having no idea what to do?

So he is good at carrying out the plans he isn't lying about.  Good luck knowing which is which ahead of time.

He also said he would release his tax returns.  Liar.

He also said if he was elected he would be too busy to golf.  Liar.

Trump said that he wanted to release his tax returns before he ran for president. He later said that his lawyers recommended against it. I don't see the lie.

The golf one is just deception on part of those critics. That Trump-Golf website counts every time he goes to his Florida home that has a golf course as golfing. It is unclear how often he actually golfs. Trump is seen golfing with politicians and world leaders anyway, and that can count as working if they are discussing political things. Trump is otherwise allowed to have a weekend, and may have meant taking time off to golf like Obama.

Trump constantly talks about the health care plan he's working on. Liberal media says it's not fast enough. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-obamacare-promise/2020/08/01/856ce250-d348-11ea-8d32-1ebf4e9d8e0d_story.html Didn't arrive on time according to estimates so it's a "lie".

Pretty weak lies.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 03:49:37 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2020, 11:55:22 PM »
“He lies, sure, but hey they aren’t important lies.”

-Tom Bishop referring to someone he likes.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #25 on: August 13, 2020, 12:48:43 AM »
Those lies were pretty weak. It is not clear that Trump was being deceptive.

Here is real deception:



Talk about splitting hairs on the definition of “being tested”.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #26 on: August 13, 2020, 12:49:09 AM »
Quote
Remember his awesome health care plan he claimed had which turned out to be... having no idea what to do?

So he is good at carrying out the plans he isn't lying about.  Good luck knowing which is which ahead of time.

He also said he would release his tax returns.  Liar.

He also said if he was elected he would be too busy to golf.  Liar.

Trump said that he wanted to release his tax returns before he ran for president. He later said that his lawyers recommended against it. I don't see the lie.

The golf one is just deception. That Trump-Golf website counts every time he goes to his Florida home that has a golf course as golfing. It is unclear how often he actually golfs.Trump is seen golfing with politicians anyway, and that can count as working if they are discussing political things. Trump is otherwise allowed to have a weekend, and may have meant taking time off to golf like Obama.

Trump constantly talks about the health care plan he's working on. Liberal media says it's not fast enough. - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-obamacare-promise/2020/08/01/856ce250-d348-11ea-8d32-1ebf4e9d8e0d_story.html Didn't arrive on time according to estimates so it's a "lie".

Pretty weak lies.

2014: “If I decide to run for office, I’ll produce my tax returns, absolutely”

He didn't produce them. He lied. He claims his lawyers told him not to, which could be another lie, who knows with him.

2016: “If I win I may never see my property — I may never see these places again. But because I’m going to be working for you, I’m not going to have time to go golfing, believe me. Believe me. Believe me, folks.”

Yeah. How many days has he been golfing now? It's nearing 300 isn't it? He's not allowed to golf if he promised not to. Believe him! Or not, because it was a lie.

As for health care, he promised he had a great plan when he campaigned. Everyone would be taken care of. When asked details he never provided any. He had two years with control of the Senate and the House and his plan was... nothing. Just left it up to Republicans in Congress to come up with something which of course, they didn't. If he had a plan, surely he would have told us about it by now. At least even a little detail? No. He just lied about it.

How about when he claimed he had investigators looking into Obama in Hawaii and they found stuff that would be revealed shortly, and then nothing, because it was all made up.

“I have people that actually have been studying it and they cannot believe what they’re finding,” Trump told host Meredith Vieira.
“You have people now down there searching, I mean in Hawaii?” she asked.
“Absolutely,” he replied. “And they cannot believe what they’re finding.”


The guy lies constantly. Daily.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #27 on: August 13, 2020, 12:56:51 AM »
Quote
2014: “If I decide to run for office, I’ll produce my tax returns, absolutely”

He didn't produce them. He lied. He claims his lawyers told him not to, which could be another lie, who knows with him

There is your problem. You didn't establish deception, that he was insincere about wanting to release them. You just called it a lie.

Trump took a cognitive test, as popularly reported. When Biden was asked if his cognition was being tested he said yes. His handlers later clarified and argued that he was being tested every day in life. Clear deception.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline JSS

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #28 on: August 13, 2020, 01:00:42 AM »
Quote
2014: “If I decide to run for office, I’ll produce my tax returns, absolutely”

He didn't produce them. He lied. He claims his lawyers told him not to, which could be another lie, who knows with him

There is your problem. You didn't establish deception, that he was insincere about wanting to release them. You just called it a lie.

He said he would produce them. He then decided not to. Not sure what you call that other than a lie. Breaking a promise?

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Offline Rama Set

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #29 on: August 13, 2020, 01:23:19 AM »
Trump recently claimed to pass a bill that no other president was able to get passed. Except Obama passed it. When confronted about it he tried to move on to another reporter. When the reporter insisted he address the evident falsehood, he abruptly ended the press conference and walked off to YMCA. How scrupulously honest.

Trump has lied numerous times about his knowledge and belief in the seriousness of the pandemic most of which is captured on video. It’s astonishingly naive (at best) to believe this is an honest man.

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Offline junker

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #30 on: August 13, 2020, 01:37:09 AM »
Trump has lied numerous times about his knowledge and belief in the seriousness of the pandemic most of which is captured on video. It’s astonishingly naive (at best) to believe this is an honest man.

WaPo is keeping score:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/politics/trump-claims-database/

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #31 on: August 13, 2020, 04:39:09 AM »
There is plenty of evidence that Trump has enacted his numerous policies, shitty and otherwise, as well as being a narcissistic liar. These are not mutually exclusive.
^ This.

You can try really hard to build a wall and have mexico oay for it while lying about how you did the most of any president ever.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #32 on: August 13, 2020, 05:10:42 AM »
I don't see any evidence that deception has been established.

Trump could simply be incorrect about the things you interpret as "lies." But it is more likely that Trump is correct in a way in which you are unaware. He does have a team of people in the Whitehouse feeding him information.

Show me something like the Biden example, where there is clear deception involved.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 05:14:55 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline Roundy

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #33 on: August 13, 2020, 05:14:36 AM »
Trump's record as a liar is extremely well-established. Sycophants like Tom only exist to try to convince the drooling masses too stupid to think for themselves otherwise.
Electro-Theologist, Poet, Philosopher, Musician, Etymologist, Egyptologist, Astro-Theologist, Geocentrist, Flat Earther, and Collector of Rare Books.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #34 on: August 13, 2020, 05:17:16 AM »
Let's see a single example where deception is involved and the matter could not be attributed to being incorrect or is correct in an alternative way.
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Online Lord Dave

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #35 on: August 13, 2020, 06:56:15 AM »
Let's see a single example where deception is involved and the matter could not be attributed to being incorrect or is correct in an alternative way.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/04/05/us/politics/trump-stormy-daniels-hush-money.html
There ya go.
We know that he knew.  His lawyer spilled those beans.

Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #36 on: August 13, 2020, 07:08:36 AM »
This is interesting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53754294

Interesting because here Biden is talking perfectly fluently. Probably reading it, but still. If you listen to Trump's rhetoric - and that from his little sheep followers like Tom who lap up everything Trump says - Biden is not actually capable of talking like this, on script or not.
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #37 on: August 13, 2020, 07:53:22 AM »
Let's see a single example where deception is involved and the matter could not be attributed to being incorrect or is correct in an alternative way.

I mean, sure, you can explain away anything and you regularly do.
The mental gymnastics you try and do in order to keep finding no fault in Trump really is incredible.
You've been shown plenty of Trump's lies already. I like this one a lot



I like it because it shows the way he lies. He lies like a child lies.
The sequence of events was he Tweeted something about the hurricane hitting Alabama, which was incorrect.
The weather service quickly corrected him, reassuring residents of Alabama that the hurricane wasn't going to hit them.

So far, so reasonable. Trump probably made an honest mistake, and that's OK. I mean, one could argue that the President of the United States should do a bit of fact checking before tweeting something which could alarm residents of a state which didn't need to worry about this, but mistakes happen.

So what was Trump's reaction? Was it to correct himself and apologise for the mix up? No, because it's Trump. And Trump cannot be wrong about anything, even when he is.
So instead he doubles down, even bringing out a map that shows the predicted path of the hurricane which has clearly been doctored to include the state of Alabama.
It's kinda funny and a bit terrifying that you have someone in the White House who lies like that.

My niece tells a story of babysitting a friends' kids. She saw one shove another over and said to the one who did the shoving "What did you do that for?".
The kid replied "Didn't!" despite the fact that my niece had literally just watched him do it and the kid knew that she saw him.
That's how Trump lies.

He lied about the inauguration crowd.
Several times he has lied about his father being born in Germany.
He routinely lies about how much he knows about things (I know more about <x> than anyone, is a common pattern)

Most people grow out of this sort of lying, he just hasn't. It's weird behaviour from an adult. It's why he's not taken seriously on the world stage
The other world leaders at the UN literally laughed at him when he boasted about how much he'd achieved.

I don't understand why you don't care about this. I found this which I thought was interesting:

https://www.minnpost.com/eric-black-ink/2020/02/its-hard-to-understand-trump-supporters-willingness-to-excuse-his-blatant-falsehoods/

He talks about people who know Trump is lying to them all the time but basically like his policies so put up with it. But then he writes about people like you:

Quote
I worry more about those, presumably most of his supporters, who cannot bring themselves to acknowledge the lying. It’s frightening. It’s cultish. It’s 1984-ish.

And he's right, it is. It's doublethink. You see him blatantly lying about things but somehow manage to convince yourself that he isn't.
« Last Edit: August 13, 2020, 08:28:33 AM by AllAroundTheWorld »
"On a very clear and chilly day it is possible to see Lighthouse Beach from Lovers Point and vice versa...Upon looking into the telescope I can see children running in and out of the water, splashing and playing. I can see people sun bathing at the shore
- An excerpt from the account of the Bishop Experiment. My emphasis

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #38 on: August 13, 2020, 08:56:29 AM »
I don't see any evidence that deception has been established. Trump could simply be incorrect about the things you interpret as "lies."

"In 1,267 days, President Trump has made 20,055 false or misleading claims" says the Wash Post.

In what other position of authority would an average of approx. 20 lies, misleading or INCORRECT statements PER DAY be tolerated?

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Offline Toddler Thork

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Re: If Biden Dies?
« Reply #39 on: August 13, 2020, 10:09:45 AM »
"In 1,267 days, President Trump has made 20,055 false or misleading claims" says the Wash Post.

In what other position of authority would an average of approx. 20 lies, misleading or INCORRECT statements PER DAY be tolerated?

Lawyer.
PR representative.
Salesman.
Estate agent.
Priest.
Oh and journalist. Where did you get that stat from again?
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