Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« on: April 24, 2020, 09:21:23 PM »
My name is Matt Slick, and I run carm.org. I'm researching flat earth theory for an article and have some questions that I hope that flat earthers here will answer in short, concise responses - not links to other materials. I will use the responses in writing my article either by direct quote or by generic representation. If you do not want me to quote you directly, please say so. I would like to have responses from actual adherents to the theory so that I can properly represent it when I write my article. Also, I know that there are a great many more questions to ask about this topic, but the following are the ones I thought most relevant. Please answer those you want and ignore the rest. If you have other "questions" that you want to propose (and answer?) that I missed, that's fine, too. Thanks in advance.

1.  What exactly is the flat earth model?
2.  What is the purpose of the conspiracy against flat earth? 
3.  Who has what to gain from the conspiracy against flat earth?
4.  If flat earth is true, then wouldn't there need to be a global conspiracy that includes scientists, engineers, boat captains, astronauts, airline pilots, etc., who are all in on the deception?
5.  If so, why would they all agree to perpetuate a huge lie?
6.  If the conspiracy against flat earth is true and it requires a massive global coverup, then wouldn't there be slip-ups by scientists that would reveal the truth?
7.  If so, where are those slip-ups?
8.  Why are the planets and the moon that we can see in telescopes all spheres, but only the earth is a flat disk?
9.  On what does the planet Earth rest or is it, as a flat disk, suspended in nothing?
10. Does the flat earth orbit around the sun? 
11. If the flat earth disc orbits around the sun, it is tilted or level with the plane of orbit?
12. If the sun rotates around a single point within the flat earth disk, does the moon also orbit around that single point?
13. If the sun and/or moon rotate around/above the disc, how does the problem of centrifugal force overcome and the sun stays above the earth plane?
14. If the previous question is answered in the affirmative, then does that mean the size of the sun and moon are relatively the same?
15. If the answer In flat earth theory, what causes the seasons?
16. Why are there dark and light places on earth if the sun is above the earth, and the light should reach the whole disk at the same time?
17. Is the sun only a spotlight that shines on one part of the disk and not others when it should be visible from everywhere?
18. Are the flat-earthers the very few who are informed enough to know the truth and everyone else is deceived?
19. What biblical verses do Christian flat-earthers use to support the flat earth belief?
20. Apparently, flat earthers do not affirm gravity (a force that pulls us downward).  Is this true?  Why not?
21. What is some direct evidence in support of flat earth theory?
22. How do man-made satellites fit into this theory?
23. If you hold to a wall of ice at the edge of the flat earth disc, why is it ice?
24. Has anyone ventured past the ice wall?  If so? Who was it? When did it happen? And, what did they see?
25. How big is the sun and how far away from the flat earth disc is it?
26. Did the U.S. astronauts go to the moon, or was that a hoax?
27. What evidence would you need to abandon flat earth theory and affirm that the earth is a sphere?

Thanks

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #1 on: April 25, 2020, 03:00:31 AM »
1.  What exactly is the flat earth model?

An empirical theory that the Earth is flat.

2.  What is the purpose of the conspiracy against flat earth?

There is a conspiracy to fake space travel, not to fake the shape of the earth.

3.  Who has what to gain from the conspiracy against flat earth?

The military dominance of space.

4.  If flat earth is true, then wouldn't there need to be a global conspiracy that includes scientists, engineers, boat captains, astronauts, airline pilots, etc., who are all in on the deception?

No. It is mostly pseudoscience. RE was never proven by experiment. The Ancient Greeks had some observations and ran with it. The RE professions are really FE professions, with sometimes overly complex processes and theories to justify why they have to assume an FE.

5.  If so, why would they all agree to perpetuate a huge lie?

They are defending childhood dogmas, which have been handed down from one generation to the next since classical antiquity.

6.  If the conspiracy against flat earth is true and it requires a massive global coverup, then wouldn't there be slip-ups by scientists that would reveal the truth?

It's a military space conspiracy. The scientists aren't in on it as a general whole, other than some of them doing what the government pays them to do. Those wouldn't be told the truth, though. They would be told that they are making simulations which are nefariously repurposed.

7.  If so, where are those slip-ups?

There are various slip-ups. We mostly talk about the physical Flat Earth Theory here, however. Paul on the Plane has a nice series called Faking Space - https://paulontheplane.com/faking-space-series/

8.  Why are the planets and the moon that we can see in telescopes all spheres, but only the earth is a flat disk?

The celestial bodies are not the Earth.

9.  On what does the planet Earth rest or is it, as a flat disk, suspended in nothing?

The Earth possibly exists as some sort of flat shape in a void.

10. Does the flat earth orbit around the sun?

The Sun moves above the Flat Earth in circular paths.

12. If the sun rotates around a single point within the flat earth disk, does the moon also orbit around that single point?

- Yes (Monopole model).

- They switch to different NP or SP points at different times (Bi-Polar model).

13. If the sun and/or moon rotate around/above the disc, how does the problem of centrifugal force overcome and the sun stays above the earth plane?

It's presumably an integrated, interconnected system like a needle on a needle player.

14. If the previous question is answered in the affirmative, then does that mean the size of the sun and moon are relatively the same?

They are probably about the same size.

15. If the answer In flat earth theory, what causes the seasons?

When the Sun passes directly overhead it's summer, when it does not pass directly over it's not summer. Light that is overhead would cause one square foot of sunlight to heat one square foot of Earth, whereas light at an angle would cause one square foot of sunlight to heat many feet of Earth.

16. Why are there dark and light places on earth if the sun is above the earth, and the light should reach the whole disk at the same time?

Light is probably bending upwards on large scales. The Ancients unjustifiably assumed that light would travel in straight lines. This is what led them to believe that the earth was a globe. Upwardly bending light might give that impression if all observations are not considered.

17. Is the sun only a spotlight that shines on one part of the disk and not others when it should be visible from everywhere?

If light is bending upward it is not visible from everywhere.

18. Are the flat-earthers the very few who are informed enough to know the truth and everyone else is deceived?

Flat Earthers are merely open minded enough to see that it could all be a mistake. Barring the claims of the space agencies, why should we put our faith in the ancient observations and theories of philosopher scientists who got most things wrong about the world?

19. What biblical verses do Christian flat-earthers use to support the flat earth belief?

I'm not a 'Christian flat earther', but I think that the verses about 'under the earth' are the most convincing verses which suggest a flat earth in scripture, as well as references to the edges of the earth. I've found some about the earth rising as well.

20. Apparently, flat earthers do not affirm gravity (a force that pulls us downward).  Is this true?  Why not?

The Earth is accelerating upwards at a rate of 9.8 m/s/s. This is what causes gravity. When you walk off the edge of a chair you will see that the Earth accelerates up to you. UA is supported by light velocity experiments, blueshift/redshift experiments, time dilation experiments, and lack of inertial resistence to falling bodies of different masses. If things were being pulled or pushed towards the earth by some phenomena they would experience different inertial resistances for different masses and would not fall at the same rate (link)

21. What is some direct evidence in support of flat earth theory?

- Water Convexity Experiments suggest a Flat Earth on short scales (link)
- On longer ranges celestial observations seem to act as if celestial lines are projected on the inside of a planetarium (link)
- Mechanical gyroscopes show that the Earth is not spinning
- Michelson Morley and the Sagnac/Wang Experiments show that the Earth is not in motion (link) (link 2)
- The Equivalence Principle experiments are too weird and uniform (link)
- Numerous professionals have said that their professions do not actually use or account for RE phenomena (link)

22. How do man-made satellites fit into this theory?

There is probably something up there. Communications satellites look odd in telescopes when passing in front of the Moon. (link)

23. If you hold to a wall of ice at the edge of the flat earth disc, why is it ice?

There are monopole and bi-polar models of the Earth. The Ice Wall exists in both. Lack of heat causes ice. We don't have the funding to determine which map or model is correct. Many variables.

24. Has anyone ventured past the ice wall?  If so? Who was it? When did it happen? And, what did they see?

Unknown.

25. How big is the sun and how far away from the flat earth disc is it?

If EA is considered, the celestial bodies are possibly about 6000 miles in altitude. Assuming that the distance from the NP to the Equator is correct, it takes about 6000 miles for the North Star to set when traveling from the NP where it is overhead to the Equator where it is on the horizon. Therefore, if EA causes bodies to descend consistently, the North Star would be an equal distance above the Earth.

26. Did the U.S. astronauts go to the moon, or was that a hoax?

Hoax

27. What evidence would you need to abandon flat earth theory and affirm that the earth is a sphere?

Observational proofs are pseudoscience which could come under any number of interpretations. I would need to see experimental evidence which is not government funded.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 07:56:40 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #2 on: April 25, 2020, 04:26:39 AM »
Thanks for the succinct answers.  I hope others answer as well.

Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #3 on: April 25, 2020, 06:00:05 PM »
Questions: 

1. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon "orbit" above the plane, then how does the shadow of the earth get projected upon the moon?
2. What force keeps the sun and the moon in their circular plane above the flat earth?
3. Centrifugal force would require that the sun and the moon move away from each other. But, in flat earth theory, they do not. Why? If the explanation for why they do not fly away from each other is due to gravity that they exert on one another, then gravity must also be exerted between the sun, moon, and the flat earth.  If this is the case, then why do the sun and moon stay above the earth and not crash down into it?
« Last Edit: April 25, 2020, 06:10:16 PM by Matt Slick »

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #4 on: April 25, 2020, 07:20:01 PM »
Questions: 

1. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon "orbit" above the plane, then how does the shadow of the earth get projected upon the moon?

Aristotle's most famous proof for the rotundity of the Earth is the Lunar Eclipse. He said that only a round Earth could cause a round shadow. Since the shadow is round, the earth must also be round. However, he was incorrect, and apparently did not experiment much with that idea. Due to the shape of the Moon, a flat sided shadow can also cause a round shadow to appear:



Compare to the real lunar eclipse:



Under the FE theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration if the Moon wanders outside of the Sun's area of light, it will encounter darkness.

Example diagram of the Sun's light rays. To the right is darkness:



The shape of the shadow at the Moon's location would only be slightly concave, essentially flat, as compared to the highly convex surface of the small Moon.

Overhead:



Now, if you watch the path of the shadow on the Moon during the eclipse, it does not go straight across, but seems to make a turn on the lunar face:



More examples at https://wiki.tfes.org/Lunar_Eclipse_due_to_Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
2. What force keeps the sun and the moon in their circular plane above the flat earth?

3. Centrifugal force would require that the sun and the moon move away from each other. But, in flat earth theory, they do not. Why? If the explanation for why they do not fly away from each other is due to gravity that they exert on one another, then gravity must also be exerted between the sun, moon, and the flat earth.  If this is the case, then why do the sun and moon stay above the earth and not crash down into it?

The motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms and forces between the celestial bodies is unknown. There have been theories over the years related to photoelectric suspension, a bowshock from UA, a celestial attraction between the bodies, magnetism, etc. Without the availability of experimentation there is no way to know what affects them. We can only observe and interpret.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2020, 12:28:14 AM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #5 on: April 25, 2020, 07:35:21 PM »
For an intelligent, educated man, some might regard Tom’s answer to #24 (beyond the Ice Wall) as either disingenuous or evasive.  The well publicized multi-national permanent research stations (if they exist, of course) could be part of a global conspiracy, but just a little research reveals that literally dozens of expeditions have explored Antarctica; some alone, some funded by governments, some funded privately.  Some have been televised, some resulted in books, and some are the subject of Guinness World Records.  Tom could refer to
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Antarctic_expeditions   
for a list. 
Some examples:

Roald Amundsen, explorer.  1911, Privately funded.  Tom doesn’t seem to know that Amundsen claimed to have been there. 

Capt Robert F Scott, Royal Naval officer and explorer.  1912, funded by the Royal Navy, Royal Society and the Royal Geographical Society. 

Michael Palin, actor, writer and Dead-Parrot Sketch demi-god.  1991, funded by the BBC, Prominent Television and Passepartout Productions.  Unlike Tom, you could read his book; Pole to Pole, 1992, BBC Books. Unlike Tom, you could also watch his TV series of the same name. 

David Attenborough, naturalist, broadcaster and National Treasure.  1993, with support from the National Geographic Society.  Quote:  “I am at the very centre of the great white continent, Antarctica. The South Pole is about half a mile away. For a thousand miles in all directions, there is nothing but ice. And, in the whole of this continent, which is about one-and-a-half times the size of the United States and larger than Europe, there is a year-round population of no more than 800 people. This is the loneliest and coldest place on Earth, the place that is most hostile to life. And yet, in one or two places, it is astonishingly rich”.   Unlike Tom, you could watch his TV series “Life in the Freezer”. 

The stock answer from FE, of course, is that it’s an uninhabitable wilderness behind an unassailable ice-wall (think Game of Thrones) guarded by an Illuminati-sponsored security force, and no-one has seen it. 

In the circumstances Matt, “unknown” is as good as you’ll get. 

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #6 on: April 25, 2020, 07:43:43 PM »
The stock answer from FE, of course, is that it’s an uninhabitable wilderness behind an unassailable ice-wall (think Game of Thrones) guarded by an Illuminati-sponsored security force
An intelligent and educated man wouldn't strawman his debate partner in such a blatant way.
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Offline BRrollin

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #7 on: April 25, 2020, 07:47:02 PM »
Questions: 

1. If the earth is flat and the sun and moon "orbit" above the plane, then how does the shadow of the earth get projected upon the moon?

Aristotle's most famous proof for the rotundity of the Earth is the Lunar Eclipse. He said that only a round Earth could cause a round shadow. He was incorrect, and apparently did not experiment much with that idea. Due to the shape of the Moon, a flat sided shadow can also cause a round shadow to appear:



Compare to the real lunar eclipse:



Under the FE theory of Electromagnetic Acceleration if the Moon wanders outside of the Sun's area of light, it will encounter darkness:



The shape of the shadow at the Moon's location would only be slightly concave, essentially flat, as compared to the highly convex surface of the small Moon.



Now, if you watch the path of the shadow on the Moon during the eclipse, it does not go straight across, but seems to make a turn on the lunar face:



More examples at https://wiki.tfes.org/Lunar_Eclipse_due_to_Electromagnetic_Acceleration

Quote
2. What force keeps the sun and the moon in their circular plane above the flat earth?

3. Centrifugal force would require that the sun and the moon move away from each other. But, in flat earth theory, they do not. Why? If the explanation for why they do not fly away from each other is due to gravity that they exert on one another, then gravity must also be exerted between the sun, moon, and the flat earth.  If this is the case, then why do the sun and moon stay above the earth and not crash down into it?

The motions are visible to us, but the mechanisms and forces between the celestial bodies is unknown. There have been theories over the years related to photoelectric suspension, a bowshock from UA, a celestial attraction between the bodies, magnetism, etc. Without the availability of experimentation there is no way to know what affects them. We can only observe and interpret.

Very interesting gif of a curved shadow on a round earth from a flat boundary.

So, does this imply that the shadow of the earth onto the moon is shaped by the flat boundary of the edge of the Earth?

If so, then this seems to suggest a finite flat earth model. Is that right? If so, I wonder if it could be used to figure out the size of the earth, since the sun and moon have a known size and distance above the flat earth?
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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2020, 01:12:48 AM »
Matt, I am a Christian as I gave my life to Jesus Christ four years ago, glory to God. The world is flat. The map of the world is the yellow and blue parts of the Brazilian flag. The circle of the earth, from Isaiah 40:22, is the white stripe on the flag, drawn around the world from the center of the flag. The 14 by 20 flag stretched out to 20 by 20, including the circle of the earth, is the square shaped base of the pyramid shaped heavens above the world. We are in the lowest level of heaven.

Jerusalem is the center of the world (from Ezekiel 5:5), glory to God. The around six feet wide, few inches thick sun rises in the east near Japan (Ecclesiastes 1:5), being around 73 miles up when it begins to rise, to around 100 miles up when it gets the highest it will ever be it's daily course, exactly due south of Jerusalem. Then it goes down in the west.

There are two geographic South Poles in the world. One in the north, and one in the south. Leaving Punta Arenas, Chile and New Zealand will take you to the north South Pole. Leaving Cape Town, South Africa will take you to the south South Pole. The Equator is 7,912 miles in diameter, and equally divides the distance between the north and south South Poles, 15,824 miles.

Glory to God.

Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2020, 07:48:58 PM »
Yo Pete, genuine apologies if I've appeared to show disrespect to you or Tom; that was not my intention.  I thought I had caught the essence of FE's concept of Antarctica/Ice-Wall/South Pole, but obviously not. 

However, I suggest that you're now diverting the topic (again) onto diplomacy and the semantics of debating per se, rather than provide an answer question #24 of Matt's original post.   

Man of straw indeed. 

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #10 on: April 27, 2020, 12:01:39 PM »
Yo Pete, genuine apologies if I've appeared to show disrespect to you or Tom; that was not my intention.  I thought I had caught the essence of FE's concept of Antarctica/Ice-Wall/South Pole, but obviously not. 

However, I suggest that you're now diverting the topic (again) onto diplomacy and the semantics of debating per se, rather than provide an answer question #24 of Matt's original post.   

Man of straw indeed. 
No, not really. If you approach a newcomer to the subject and "inform" him that there is supposedly a secret, "unassailable" Ice Wall with mysterious guards on it, you've either been extremely misled (in which case: I suggest you read up on FET before you try to explain it to others) yourself or are misleading others on purpose (in which case: you probably won't get to post here for very long). I don't know or care which it is, but I do have to point out that what you've posted is extremely inaccurate.

The fact that I chose not to participate in the Q&A does not in any way stop me from pointing this out, and I'm not sure why you'd imply that it should. Tom already answered this question as well as I could. I guess I can say the same thing in more words, if you really want:

It is unknown whether anyone has ventured past Antarctica and lived to tell the tale (but the latter has seemingly not happened). You pointing out that people have been to Antarctica is a non-sequitur.
« Last Edit: April 27, 2020, 12:07:10 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #11 on: April 29, 2020, 01:27:28 PM »
Sorry, I don't want to muddle up the facts (again) and mislead anyone, so from the Wiki;

"The Earth is surrounded on all sides by an ice wall that holds the oceans back. This ice wall is what explorers have named Antarctica. Beyond the ice wall is a topic of great interest to the Flat Earth Society. To our knowledge, no one has been very far past the ice wall and returned to tell of their journey. What we do know is that it encircles the earth and serves to hold in our oceans and helps protect us from whatever lies beyond".

So the Ice Wall is the edge of Antarctica? Or not?  And few have lived to tell the tale? 

And no-one has any idea about Question #24, even though its "a topic of great interest"? 

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #12 on: April 30, 2020, 08:42:11 AM »
So the Ice Wall is the edge of Antarctica? Or not?  And few have lived to tell the tale?
You have read and quoted something that outright states that the Ice Wall and Antarctica are one and the same. You are now asking whether the Ice Wall and "the edge of Antarctica" (whatever that means) are one and the same.

Let's ask the same question back to you. Regardless of your preferred model of the Earth, is Antarctica the edge of Antarctica?

And few have lived to tell the tale?
Have they? How come they haven't told the tale?

And no-one has any idea about Question #24, even though its "a topic of great interest"?
I'm not sure where you got that from. Plenty of people have ideas as to what may lie beyond Antarctica. This doesn't change the fact that the matter is strictly unknown.
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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2020, 09:35:37 AM »
Pete,

From the FES Wiki "The Ice Wall"

"Along the edge of our local area exists a massive 150 foot Ice Wall. The 150 foot Ice Wall is on the coast of Antarctica. The Ice Wall is a massive wall of ice that surrounds Antarctica".

But you wrote that the Ice Wall IS Antarctica. 

So is the Ice Wall the edge of Antarctica, or does the whole of Antarctica comprise the wall?  Do you see my point?  I'm trying to establish if you accept that many people have (and continue to) travel and explore the continent of Antarctica by air, ground motor-vehicle, dog-sled, etc (for professional and recreational reasons) and have permanent bases there. 

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #14 on: May 25, 2020, 04:30:26 PM »
So is the Ice Wall the edge of Antarctica, or does the whole of Antarctica comprise the wall?
What "edge"? Are you referring to the coastline? Considering the definition of a coastline (key point: it's already land and no longer water), you could argue that the "wall" is the coastline. The rest of it isn't exactly "walling" anything off, it just provides additional girth. Nonetheless, I see absolutely no meaningful distinction in doing that. Whether you want to argue that it's the Antarctic continent that acts as a "wall" or that it's Antarctica that acts as a "wall", the two are functionally identical. If you think there is a functional difference, name it and explan.

Do you see my point?
No. You seem to be nitpicking at a historical name for Antarctica, but you have yet to state your reason for it. My intuition suggests that if you had a reason, you'd have made it clear ages ago.

I'm trying to establish if you accept that many people have (and continue to) travel and explore the continent of Antarctica by air, ground motor-vehicle, dog-sled, etc (for professional and recreational reasons) and have permanent bases there.
Why didn't you just ask that? Or search for past posts of mine? Either way you'd arrive at an answer of "yes" much more quickly than through engaging in silly wordplay.
« Last Edit: May 25, 2020, 04:35:13 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Research Questions on Flat Earth from a Christian Apologist
« Reply #15 on: June 17, 2020, 06:56:12 PM »
1.  What exactly is the flat earth model?

An empirical theory that the Earth is flat.

2.  What is the purpose of the conspiracy against flat earth?

There is a conspiracy to fake space travel, not to fake the shape of the earth.

3.  Who has what to gain from the conspiracy against flat earth?

The military dominance of space.




So you're saying the conspiracy is to dominate space but space flight is fake?  Wait, what?
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