God
« on: February 12, 2020, 12:36:08 PM »
Hi! I’m a new user of this forum. I’d like to know WHY exactly the Earth is flat: why are we the center of the universe? What are your opinions about that? I mean, if there is a reason for our existence or something.

Re: God
« Reply #1 on: February 12, 2020, 05:42:35 PM »
Flat earthers take the Bible literally and there are verses in the Bible that could be interpreted in such a way that it seems like it’s suggesting the earth is flat. Since faith comes before fact for some, here we are.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: God
« Reply #2 on: February 12, 2020, 05:56:02 PM »
Flat earthers take the Bible literally and there are verses in the Bible that could be interpreted in such a way that it seems like it’s suggesting the earth is flat. Since faith comes before fact for some, here we are.

Not all do. One thing that you have to understand is that there are a dozen or so different flat earth models. Only a portion of them are biblical.

One thing that is common among most of the FE models are statements like this:


It does not feel like i'm spinning 1000 miles per hour so I doubt we are.
I don't feel like i'm orbiting the sun at 67,000 miles per hour so I doubt we are. I can EASILY tell if i'm traveling 1 mile per hour let alone 67,000 miles per hour.
I went to the top of a tall building and looked out over the ocean. Perfectly flat.




Re: God
« Reply #3 on: February 12, 2020, 09:58:54 PM »
I can EASILY tell if i'm traveling 1 mile per hour let alone 67,000 miles per hour.

No you can’t. You can feel acceleration, not constant velocity. If you’re on a train you feel it leave the station as it accelerates and you feel it decelerate as it approaches the next station. Between those times when it’s going at a constant velocity in a straight line and ignoring the natural jerkiness of a train you can’t feel anything. Obviously you can look out the window and see you’re moving but you can’t feel it. When you’re on a plane once you’re cruising you don’t feel that you’re going close to the speed of sound.

If you’re on a roundabout rotating at a high angular velocity you can feel yourself being pulled outwards. If the angular velocity was such that you only made one revolution per day you wouldn’t feel it.

Quote
I went to the top of a tall building and looked out over the ocean. Perfectly flat.

As you would expect on a globe the size of the earth.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: God
« Reply #4 on: February 12, 2020, 10:46:06 PM »
I can EASILY tell if i'm traveling 1 mile per hour let alone 67,000 miles per hour.

No you can’t. You can feel acceleration, not constant velocity.


I never said that I can FEEL if i'm traveling at a constant velocity. I said that I can tell i'm traveling at a constant velocity. I set my car on 60 MPH cruise control and, even though there was no change in velocity, I was able to use my 5 senses and easily determine when I am moving.


No you can’t. You can feel acceleration, not constant velocity. If you’re on a train you feel it leave the station as it accelerates and you feel it decelerate as it approaches the next station. Between those times when it’s going at a constant velocity in a straight line and ignoring the natural jerkiness of a train you can’t feel anything.

First off I never said I could feel when something is moving. I said I can tell when something is moving. But in this train situation I'm able to both feel and tell when the train is moving.
 A moving train has moving parts that i'm able to tell are moving by vibrations in the train.I can feel these vibrations in my feet and butt when I sit.  I can also tell the train is moving by detecting those vibrations.

I can also hear the tracks moving as the train goes clickity clack. My inner ear is able to "feel" those vibrations indicating movement.

I can also look out the window and tell the train is moving as it passes by things. Although "feel" is not really the right verb here i'm still able to use external inputs to detect this motion.

I'm also able to feel the train as it sways back in forth using my sense of balance.
I can also feel the air rushing by my open window as the train is moving.


Quote
I went to the top of a tall building and looked out over the ocean. Perfectly flat.

As you would expect on a globe the size of the earth.

If this is predicted in the RE model does not at all reduce this as FE evidence. It looks flat therefore it's flat.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 10:48:18 PM by iamcpc »

Re: God
« Reply #5 on: February 12, 2020, 11:38:32 PM »
...What would you think you would feel/sense if you lived on a round earth...?

We're sort of straying from the initial question here. We're talking about HOW and not WHY. The OP wants to know why the earth, of any other possible configuration is a flat disk? I said it's because FErs think that's simply the way God made it. What do the people who believe the earths design is non-conforming to the bible think of this? I assumed the only reason you'd think it's flat is if you're really stubborn or skeptical of everything or if you take the bible literally.

A problem with science is that any field will never figure out the baseline explanation as to why. With strictly science, there is no self fulfilling purpose for any particular thing, event, etc. For example, why did the big bang occur and what was there before? Scientists think there is a multiverse with big bangs all the time, and universes so old that entropy has nearly evened everything out. Though this theory can be compelling if you read the literature, it still leaves the reader thinking, but why... and I think you, the OP are asking this question in regards to the FE theory. People use religion as their self fulfilling thing in their life so they can answer the "why" with "because God", so maybe you're looking for that answer, but I'm not a FE so I can't say for sure
« Last Edit: February 12, 2020, 11:40:48 PM by ImAnEngineerToo »

Re: God
« Reply #6 on: February 13, 2020, 02:10:42 PM »
I understood. Thank you for all the answers and for the attention. Thanks.

Re: God
« Reply #7 on: February 13, 2020, 02:49:18 PM »
If this is predicted in the RE model does not at all reduce this as FE evidence. It looks flat therefore it's flat.
If two models predict the same thing and you're trying to distinguish between the models then it means that thing is not evidence for (or against) either model. It simply means that in itself it is not sufficient evidence to discriminate between the models.

Point taken about being able to "tell" rather than "feel" you are moving. But you can tell we are moving, we observe the sun moving across the sky, we can observe the way the stars rotate around a northern point in the northern hemisphere and a southern one in the southern.

Now, you could claim that observation shows the sun and stars are moving, not us. But back to your example of cruise control. If you imagine a perfectly smooth and flat road, no engine noise and closed windows so you can't feel the air moving - how can you tell it's you moving and not the things around you. Obviously common sense tells you it is, but in terms of what you'd observe it would be exactly the same if it was the landscape moving around you. That's why sometimes if you're on a train you see a train on a neighbouring platform start to move you can't always tell if it's you moving or the neighbouring train. So this is similar to the observation of a flat horizon - you'd see the sun moving across the sky if it was going around us or if we were living on a rotating ball. This observation enough is not sufficient to distinguish between these two possibilities.

For a long time we did think it was the sun and stars that were moving. We literally did think the world (or universe) revolved around us.
I guess it does fit with a Biblical worldview, coming back to the thread topic - God created the universe and created us to have a special place in it, so why wouldn't we be at the centre of everything? It was only when we started making more detailed observations and noticed retrograde motion that we realised another model fitted better with observations. Now of course we have the technology to observe the globe earth.

Science has relegated us from the centre of the universe to an insignificant speck. My take on that with my Christian hat on is that our significance doesn't come from where we are, but who we are - beings made in the image of God, made separately from the rest of creation to have relationship with Him. Where we are isn't important.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: God
« Reply #8 on: February 13, 2020, 03:18:45 PM »
I can EASILY tell if i'm traveling 1 mile per hour let alone 67,000 miles per hour.

No you can’t. You can feel acceleration, not constant velocity.


I never said that I can FEEL if i'm traveling at a constant velocity. I said that I can tell i'm traveling at a constant velocity. I set my car on 60 MPH cruise control and, even though there was no change in velocity, I was able to use my 5 senses and easily determine when I am moving.

No you can’t. You can feel acceleration, not constant velocity. If you’re on a train you feel it leave the station as it accelerates and you feel it decelerate as it approaches the next station. Between those times when it’s going at a constant velocity in a straight line and ignoring the natural jerkiness of a train you can’t feel anything.

First off I never said I could feel when something is moving. I said I can tell when something is moving. But in this train situation I'm able to both feel and tell when the train is moving.
 A moving train has moving parts that i'm able to tell are moving by vibrations in the train.I can feel these vibrations in my feet and butt when I sit.  I can also tell the train is moving by detecting those vibrations.

I can also hear the tracks moving as the train goes clickity clack. My inner ear is able to "feel" those vibrations indicating movement.

I can also look out the window and tell the train is moving as it passes by things. Although "feel" is not really the right verb here i'm still able to use external inputs to detect this motion.

I'm also able to feel the train as it sways back in forth using my sense of balance.
I can also feel the air rushing by my open window as the train is moving.

Many times I've been unsure whether a train I was on was moving or not. In the dark but inside a brightly lit carriage on a smooth track with no outside references, when the train slows right down I can't always tell the difference between creeping along very slowly and stopped. The aircon is on, the engines are still running, people are talking phones etc. so I can't pick out from noise and vibration alone what's going on. Similarly with no outside references, vision is no use. Smell - no clues there. Nothing to touch or taste to give me a clue either.

On the other hand, in a noisy brightly lit station pulled alongside another train, I've frequently been fooled into thinking we were gently pulling away only to realize it was the other train moving instead.

Maybe the trains here are just altogether smoother.

When I'm on an aeroplane, I can't tell the difference between 300mph and 500mph, mainly because the sensory clues are the same in both cases, so if I can't detect a 200mph difference, I clearly cannot accurately estimate speed at all so why should I think I ought to be able to tell the difference between stationary and a constant speed?

Quote
I went to the top of a tall building and looked out over the ocean. Perfectly flat.

As you would expect on a globe the size of the earth.

If this is predicted in the RE model does not at all reduce this as FE evidence. It looks flat therefore it's flat.

I went to the top of a small hill and looked over the ocean and the horizon was maybe 10 miles away in every direction. Should I assume the Earth is a 10 mile radius plate with me at the centre because it looks exactly like that.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: God
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2020, 05:56:22 PM »
Many times I've been unsure whether a train I was on was moving or not. In the dark but inside a brightly lit carriage on a smooth track with no outside references, when the train slows right down I can't always tell the difference between creeping along very slowly and stopped. The aircon is on, the engines are still running, people are talking phones etc. so I can't pick out from noise and vibration alone what's going on. Similarly with no outside references, vision is no use. Smell - no clues there. Nothing to touch or taste to give me a clue either.

Well I've never experienced this. I have always been able to tell when the train is moving.


I went to the top of a small hill and looked over the ocean and the horizon was maybe 10 miles away in every direction. Should I assume the Earth is a 10 mile radius plate with me at the centre because it looks exactly like that.

I would say you would be safe to make that hypothesis. Then promptly test it by driving 10 miles. If you drove 10 miles then saw the edge of the earth that would be evidence which supported your original hypothesis. If you drove 10 miles and saw 10 more miles of road then you would be evidence against your hypothesis.

Lucky for you google maps has photographic evidence of a huge chunk of the world's roads. You could just take a stroll down the road on google maps.

Re: God
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2020, 06:28:45 PM »
Oh but you can’t use those photos because google is a known liar. Zoom out far enough on google maps and the earth is round.

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Offline junker

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Re: God
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2020, 06:29:46 PM »
Oh but you can’t use those photos because google is a known liar. Zoom out far enough on google maps and the earth is round.

If you don't have anything useful to add to the discussion, then refrain from posting in the upper fora. Warned.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: God
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2020, 12:38:00 AM »
Oh but you can’t use those photos because google is a known liar. Zoom out far enough on google maps and the earth is round.

The zoomed out version is moot. I've driven many of the roads and done my own personal testing and verified, based on my testing, that 100% of the time the surface level images are pretty accurate.

In addition it was only recently that google maps starting showing the earth as a sphere.

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Offline stack

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Re: God
« Reply #13 on: February 18, 2020, 06:11:53 AM »
Oh but you can’t use those photos because google is a known liar. Zoom out far enough on google maps and the earth is round.

The zoomed out version is moot. I've driven many of the roads and done my own personal testing and verified, based on my testing, that 100% of the time the surface level images are pretty accurate.

In addition it was only recently that google maps starting showing the earth as a sphere.

Correct, it's in the last couple of years that Google has had the option to visually present a spherical/globe view. However, since inception, the mapping presentation has always been spherically/globe based. Google maps, Bing maps, Yahoo maps have always used the Mercator globe projection.

Take Bing for example: "Each of the Bing Maps services uses a projected coordinate system called Mercator Auxiliary Sphere, which uses GCS_WGS_1984 as its geographic coordinate system."
https://desktop.arcgis.com/en/arcmap/10.3/map/web-maps-and-services/using-bing-maps.htm

Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: God
« Reply #14 on: February 18, 2020, 09:56:08 AM »
Many times I've been unsure whether a train I was on was moving or not. In the dark but inside a brightly lit carriage on a smooth track with no outside references, when the train slows right down I can't always tell the difference between creeping along very slowly and stopped. The aircon is on, the engines are still running, people are talking phones etc. so I can't pick out from noise and vibration alone what's going on. Similarly with no outside references, vision is no use. Smell - no clues there. Nothing to touch or taste to give me a clue either.

Well I've never experienced this. I have always been able to tell when the train is moving.


I went to the top of a small hill and looked over the ocean and the horizon was maybe 10 miles away in every direction. Should I assume the Earth is a 10 mile radius plate with me at the centre because it looks exactly like that.

I would say you would be safe to make that hypothesis. Then promptly test it by driving 10 miles. If you drove 10 miles then saw the edge of the earth that would be evidence which supported your original hypothesis. If you drove 10 miles and saw 10 more miles of road then you would be evidence against your hypothesis.

Lucky for you google maps has photographic evidence of a huge chunk of the world's roads. You could just take a stroll down the road on google maps.

Well I was responding to

I went to the top of a tall building and looked out over the ocean. Perfectly flat.

You're saying I should be open to other possibilities and not just come to a conclusion based on what I see. I'm fine with that. To me the world looks like a flat plate with a 10 mile radius, but I'll be open to the possibility it isn't shaped like a plate and by the same reasoning, I must be open to the possibility it isn't flat either.

Before I walk down from my hill, I'll make a few observations which may come in handy later on, who knows. Through my telescope, I can see the horizon is very sharp and there is a very large, tall, 3 masted sailing ship about 8 miles away, it's not under sail and appears to be stationary. Half way down the hill, the horizon is noticeably closer and the tall ship is now right on it, even though it looks like the ship hasn't moved. My original hypothesis no longer stands up, so maybe not a plate after all, maybe not flat either. What other shape could explain the sharp circular horizon which gets closer as I descend? Well a large sphere fits the bill perfectly. Large enough for any curvature to be difficult to spot. That's my new hypothesis. Before I go on, I'll make some predictions based on my new hypothesis:
  • As I descend the hill, the horizon will get closer still.
  • The sailing ship will gradually disappear bottom first.
  • If I move to a different location I should still see a clear circular horizon.
  • If I climb another hill in my new location, the horizon will grow.
  • The sailing ship will reappear, masts first.
Now I have made my predictions, so I can go ahead and change locations. All 5 predictions are true, nothing invalidates my new hypothesis and my hypothesis is now stronger than it was due to the weight of evidence.