Terminal Velocity?
« on: January 06, 2020, 05:01:40 PM »
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Terminal Velocity

In the Round Earth model, terminal velocity happens when the acceleration due to gravity is equal to the acceleration due to drag. In the Flat Earth model, however, there are no balanced forces: terminal velocity happens when the upward acceleration of the person is equal to the upward acceleration of the Earth.

Q: If gravity does not exist, how does terminal velocity work?

A: When the acceleration of the person is equal to the acceleration of the Earth, the person has reached terminal velocity.

Why is terminal velocity even a thing in the UA model of FE?  It is a concept applicable to free falling bodies, which according to UA don’t exist.  Things don’t fall…the earth rises up to meet them.

But it is a demonstrable fact that if a person jumps out of a plane the distance between the person and ground decreases at an increasing rate until at some point (depending or air density, humidity, weight…etc.), the distance begins decreasing at a constant rate.

What causes that if the earth is rising at a constant rate and there is no air resistance (because the person is not actually “falling” but is suspended motionless) to affect the rate at which the distance between the earth and person decreases? Not to mention the fact that when a skydiver opens a chute, the rate decreases…what would cause the decrease?  Again, it can’t be drag…because there is no drag on something that is not falling.

Also in the wiki...
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One of the primary proofs for the Universal Accelerator is the fact that bodies fall without inertial resistance.

But in a non-vacuum environment  bodies do fall with air resistance which wouldn’t be the case unless the body is actually moving through the air and not just suspended motionless until the ground reaches it.

If you release a feather and a bowling ball at the same height and both are suspended motionless until the earth meets it…why does the earth reach the bowling ball first?




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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2020, 04:04:09 PM »
Quote
Terminal Velocity

In the Round Earth model, terminal velocity happens when the acceleration due to gravity is equal to the acceleration due to drag. In the Flat Earth model, however, there are no balanced forces: terminal velocity happens when the upward acceleration of the person is equal to the upward acceleration of the Earth.

Q: If gravity does not exist, how does terminal velocity work?

A: When the acceleration of the person is equal to the acceleration of the Earth, the person has reached terminal velocity.

Why is terminal velocity even a thing in the UA model of FE?  It is a concept applicable to free falling bodies, which according to UA don’t exist.  Things don’t fall…the earth rises up to meet them.

But it is a demonstrable fact that if a person jumps out of a plane the distance between the person and ground decreases at an increasing rate until at some point (depending or air density, humidity, weight…etc.), the distance begins decreasing at a constant rate.

What causes that if the earth is rising at a constant rate and there is no air resistance (because the person is not actually “falling” but is suspended motionless) to affect the rate at which the distance between the earth and person decreases? Not to mention the fact that when a skydiver opens a chute, the rate decreases…what would cause the decrease?  Again, it can’t be drag…because there is no drag on something that is not falling.

Also in the wiki...
Quote
One of the primary proofs for the Universal Accelerator is the fact that bodies fall without inertial resistance.

But in a non-vacuum environment  bodies do fall with air resistance which wouldn’t be the case unless the body is actually moving through the air and not just suspended motionless until the ground reaches it.

If you release a feather and a bowling ball at the same height and both are suspended motionless until the earth meets it…why does the earth reach the bowling ball first?

Not being a flat earther and having over 900 skydives I think I can take a stab at this.   

If UA was a thing (and it's not) the air could not be affected by it other than the earth pushing up on it.    (If UA pushed the air the same as it pushed the ground there would be consistent air pressure at all altitudes.)  This would create more air pressure the lower you got due to compression.  This would create the drag you are looking for.  Relative to the universe outside of the UA influence you would appear to rise, not float in one spot.

A good a guess as any?

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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2020, 08:27:14 PM »
If UA was a thing (and it's not) the air could not be affected by it other than the earth pushing up on it.    (If UA pushed the air the same as it pushed the ground there would be consistent air pressure at all altitudes.)  This would create more air pressure the lower you got due to compression.  This would create the drag you are looking for.  Relative to the universe outside of the UA influence you would appear to rise, not float in one spot.

A good a guess as any?

Well terminal velocity is defined as the maximum falling speed you reach because the force of air pushing against you as wind resistance is the same as the force of gravity. Since UA does not have the force of gravity the phrase terminal velocity can't really be applied.


If you are asking why things reach a maximum speed when the earth is accelerating up to meet them i guess the UA could say the same thing and the RE. The force of the wind resistance.

Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #3 on: January 08, 2020, 01:18:13 AM »
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Well terminal velocity is defined as the maximum falling speed you reach because the force of air pushing against you as wind resistance is the same as the force of gravity. Since UA does not have the force of gravity the phrase terminal velocity can't really be applied.

That's the point I was making when I said

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Why is terminal velocity even a thing in the UA model of FE?  It is a concept applicable to free falling bodies, which according to UA don’t exist.  Things don’t fall…the earth rises up to meet them.

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If you are asking why things reach a maximum speed when the earth is accelerating up to meet them i guess the UA could say the same thing and the RE. The force of the wind resistance.

In order to reach a "maximum speed", something has to be moving.  In the FE model, things aren't moving as the earth is accelerating up to meet an object.  There is no wind resistance.

Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #4 on: January 08, 2020, 02:50:50 PM »
How does a paper helicopter work if there is no wind resistance?

Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2020, 06:17:49 PM »
How does a paper helicopter work if there is no wind resistance?

In the absence of gravity,it doesn't.  There must be something creating wind strong enough to accelerate it before there can be resistance to it.  I suppose a breeze would work with a paper helicopter. Not so much with a bowling ball.
« Last Edit: January 08, 2020, 06:28:01 PM by pricelesspearl »

Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2020, 02:44:20 AM »
If there was such a thing as gravity, it would never reach terminal velocity. The closer you get to Earth the more it pulls you in. Shouldn’t gravity make an object accelerate until it comes in contact with the object.

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Offline Boots

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2020, 05:02:03 AM »
If there was such a thing as gravity, it would never reach terminal velocity. The closer you get to Earth the more it pulls you in. Shouldn’t gravity make an object accelerate until it comes in contact with the object.
Conventional physics teaches that terminal velocity is where the force of gravity is matched by an opposing force of air resistance.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2020, 07:46:41 AM »
In order to reach a "maximum speed", something has to be moving.  In the FE model, things aren't moving as the earth is accelerating up to meet an object.  There is no wind resistance.
Well, yes, if you want to look at it from that frame of reference, the skydiver isn't moving until the air pushes him up ever so gently. As that air becomes denser, the force of the air pushing the skydiver becomes greater. The difference between the upward acceleration of the Earth and the upward acceleration of the skydiver will therefore diminish, and eventually reach zero.

However, you are being willingly obtuse by not picking a FoR you would find more intuitive. Simply taking a non-inertial FoR in which the Earth is stationary and the skydiver is falling will eliminate your confusion.
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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2020, 08:27:24 AM »
In order to reach a "maximum speed", something has to be moving.  In the FE model, things aren't moving as the earth is accelerating up to meet an object.  There is no wind resistance.
Well, yes, if you want to look at it from that frame of reference, the skydiver isn't moving until the air pushes him up ever so gently. As that air becomes denser, the force of the air pushing the skydiver becomes greater. The difference between the upward acceleration of the Earth and the upward acceleration of the skydiver will therefore diminish, and eventually reach zero.

However, you are being willingly obtuse by not picking a FoR you would find more intuitive. Simply taking a non-inertial FoR in which the Earth is stationary and the skydiver is falling will eliminate your confusion.
Do you have measurements of air density as it varies for a skydiver.  I suggest it does not significantly vary.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2020, 08:49:15 AM »
Sorry, you're right, that's obviously not a major factor. The important change is that in drag - as the skydiver's velocity relative to the air changes, so does the drag coefficient.

This error aside, my comment on pp's confusion stands. The discussion on what is "actually" moving is only likely to distract (and is arguably meaningless). It's the relative motion between the two that matters. I should have kept my response to just that, given TomIA already gave a perfectly good answer to the core question.
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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2020, 01:50:03 PM »
Sorry, you're right, that's obviously not a major factor. The important change is that in drag - as the skydiver's velocity relative to the air changes so does the drag coefficient.

This error aside, my comment on pp's confusion stands. The discussion on what is "actually" moving is only likely to distract (and is arguably meaningless). It's the relative motion between the two that matters. I should have kept my response to just that, given TomIA already gave a perfectly good answer to the core question.

According to FET, a skydiver's velocity is zero. That never changes.  Also, according to FET, the velocity of the earth under UA never changes...therefore the relative velocity between the two should never vary.





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Offline TomInAustin

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2020, 03:38:36 PM »
Do you have measurements of air density as it varies for a skydiver.  I suggest it does not significantly vary.

If I recall correctly its about 1 atmosphere of pressure change between Sea Level and 8000 feet.
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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2020, 04:06:35 PM »
According to FET, a skydiver's velocity is zero.
Relative to what?

Also, according to FET, the velocity of the earth under UA never changes.
That sounds like the opposite of a constant*, universal acceleration. Just, y'know, saying that an acceleration (i.e. change in velocity) leads to the velocity never changing... something's fishy about that claim. As someone who actually has an understanding of FET, I can assure you that your assertion is false. But, just to humour you: Relative to what?
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While we wait for your answers, let's explore some of the hilarious consequences of your claim:
  • What we were discussing is the change of relative velocity between the skydiver and the air, not Earth. The two are not identical, unless you're prepared to claim that wind doesn't exist. I wouldn't be entirely surprised if you did.
  • If, as you claim, the relative velocity between the skydiver and the Earth never changes, the skydiver will never hit the Earth. I assure you that FET does not claim things never hit the ground once they've been dropped.
  • The skydiver's velocity never changing would imply that the force imposed by drag does not lead to a change in velocity. Are we to assume that you, the skydiver, are so fat and/or dense that your mass cannot be meaningfully described by the set of real numbers? That would have significant consequences on, well, everything.
As with your past comedic failures, I encourage you to rescind your claim. Secretly, however, I hope you'll double down as per usual.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2020, 04:16:44 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2020, 04:56:42 PM »
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The skydiver's velocity never changing would imply that the force imposed by drag does not lead to a change in velocity.

A skydiver's velocity changing as result of a force imposed by drag would imply that the skydiver is moving. Drag force is proportional to speed, if there is no speed there is no drag force to effect velocity. It's not that difficult to understand.




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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2020, 05:25:26 PM »
would imply that the skydiver is moving.
He is, relative to the air.

It's not that difficult to understand.
I agree, but yet here you are.
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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2020, 10:12:14 PM »
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He is, relative to the air.

Is the air moving relative to the skydiver?

Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2020, 10:15:37 PM »
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The skydiver's velocity never changing would imply that the force imposed by drag does not lead to a change in velocity.

A skydiver's velocity changing as result of a force imposed by drag would imply that the skydiver is moving. Drag force is proportional to speed, if there is no speed there is no drag force to effect velocity. It's not that difficult to understand.

Have you ever heard of indoor sky diving?
Think about how that works...
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2020, 10:56:49 PM »


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Have you ever heard of indoor sky diving?
Think about how that works...

I have heard of it...and I’ve done it.  I was stationary as long as the airflow was constant and the distance between me and the floor never changed.



Re: Terminal Velocity?
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2020, 11:02:10 PM »


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Have you ever heard of indoor sky diving?
Think about how that works...

I have heard of it...and I’ve done it.  I was stationary as long as the airflow was constant and the distance between me and the floor never changed.
Me too. It’s really hard, isn’t it?
What if the airflow wasn’t constant?
What would happen if the speed of the air kept increasing?
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.