BrownRobin

• 10
When rockets launch....
« on: July 11, 2019, 10:22:42 PM »
Hi,

QUESTION 1
When the Space Shuttle program used to be active, it would launch and then the Orbiter would return a few days or a few weeks later.

If Flat Earthers believe that space travel is not possible / is a hoax, where does a Flat Earther believe that the Orbiter goes for the few days or weeks after it launches before it then re-appears and glides in for a landing? Does the shuttle launch/ glide to a secret undisclosed location without radar detection/ and then NASA somehow launches it again in secret or a clone of it so that it can re-appear and land?

I would be curious to get feedback from a Flat Earth believer on how they believe this hoax to work.

QUESTION 2
The moon has been scientifically measured to be about 240,000 miles away from Earth. This obviously conflicts with Flat Earth theory that moon is only a few thousand miles away.

Does a Flat Earther believe that the scientific measurements have been faked?

What method does a Flat Earther use to measure distance of Earth to Moon?

Thanks.
« Last Edit: July 12, 2019, 07:44:16 PM by BrownRobin »

spherical

• 214
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #1 on: July 12, 2019, 10:16:56 PM »

According to Flat Earth theory, the Moon distance is not actually "measured", but calculated by geometry.
On a Flat Earth world, a "pizza" disc with 20,000 km in radius, 10,000 km from Poles to Equator, anytime the Moon is right at the top of Equator, a person located at 5,000 km from the Equator (right in middle of Equator and pole, or 45° of latitude), same longitude as the Moon, will see the Moon at 45° of elevation towards Equator.  By rectangle triangulation, 5000 km on ground, 45° of hypotenuse, makes 5000 km up to the Moon, that makes around 3125 miles up.

Of course, if you start to bend the ground with gravity underneath, same person will continue to see the Moon at 45° IF the Moon starts to go away further proportionally.  If the ground bends 45° where the person is, relative to the Equator, plus the 45° of elevation the person sees the Moon, our beloved natural satellite will be pretty close to 90° of elevation to another person over the Equator seeing the "same" Moon, what puts the Moon very far away, around 380,000 km of distance in the same triangulation calculation.  The same calculation can be used for the Sun.  The problem is that a regular poor mortal person doesn't have a super precise instrumentation necessary to measure exactly the thousandth of a second of degree of difference when measuring at Equator or at 5000km from it, in order to get the exact distances for objects in the sky, so, on FE rounding degrees result in that 3000 miles up for the Sun and the Moon.

The same triangulation can be used to calculate the size of the Moon and Sun.  As we can actually see and measure Sun and Moon diameter to be very close to half a degree, and considering FE living creatures could see them at 45° of elevation, when standing at 5000km from another person seeing it at 90° elevation, it means 111km (5000km/45°) per degree, half degree would be 55km, or roughly 34.7 miles in diameter.

So, distances and sizes based on triangulation only relies on angles of observations, if you zero all the terrain to a flat Earth, and all its inhabitants will be straight up no matter where, all the distant objects on the sky MUST be pulled close in order to keep the same elevation angle results.

If you make flat Earth concave by only 5°, all the measurements change again, the sky objects would need to be yet closer.

Two persons over the Moon in RE world, can calculate the distance to Earth, they only need to know the Moon radius, the distance among them, and the elevation angle each see Earth, a triangulation calculation will easily gives them the "h" of the isosceles triangle (if both see the Earth with exact same elevation angle number), that means distance.  They can also measure the angular size of Earth, and based the distance to Earth, easily calculate Earth diameter.   Knowing diameter and guessing Earth is composed of rocky material, they can also calculate volume (4.1888*r³), mass and gravity. Knowing radius of the Moon and also a rocky object, volume, mass and gravity. Earth and Moon gravity and distance gives you orbital period.   Astrophysics is a fascinating field of study, not existent on flat Earth world, unfortunately.

somerled

• 95
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #2 on: July 13, 2019, 12:52:13 PM »
I think your idea of the flat earth is erroneous and you have simply converted globe ( or rabbit poo shaped ) earth into a pizza of assumed similar to globe proportions .The equator is the imaginary middle of the theoretic globe defined with relation to the pole star i.e. the pole star is at zero degrees elevation when viewed from any point on this globe equator.
This globe equator does not exist in flat earth theory but may be equated to the circle described by the suns mid point of travel between the two tropics , each equinox . Now globe theory would have us believe that at each equinox day and night are closest in length - 12 hours each . Of course anyone can check timeanddate website and see that this is not so .
At my latitude 55 degrees north equinox occurs 5 days prior to the corresponding southern latitude equinox.

I would also like to point out that the magnetic south pole is at 64 degrees south according to globe co-ordinates and since impartial observers are not allowed south of 60 degrees I would not attach any belief to the assumed distances to so called geographic south pole - how do they navigate down there ?

This might be off topic so I'll leave it there.

dirtysnowball

Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #3 on: July 13, 2019, 09:31:10 PM »
Quote
Quote
The moon has been scientifically measured to be about 240,000 miles away from Earth. This obviously conflicts with Flat Earth theory that moon is only a few thousand miles away.

Does a Flat Earther believe that the scientific measurements have been faked?

The FE approach is this. First make an assertion based on nothing more than belief that the Earth is flat.  Now set that assertion in stone so it cannot be changed no matter what evidence against it is presented.  Any such evidence must clearly be wrong (or faked). Now from the asserted size or diameter of the 'flat' Earth make an estimate of how far away the Moon must be based on some basic observations such as shadow lengths in various places. The conclusion that is reached, as you say is a few thousand miles away.

RE as you also say has made various measurements in various ways  using various methods over a period of years. Those measurements are as you say, scientifically based and therefore repeatable and verifiable independently. All those measurements have reached the same average figure of 240,000 miles.

That figure is of course significantly different to the FE claim.  FE conclusion: RE measurements are wrong or faked.  RE conclusion: FE theory is wrong because their figure is based on their wrong assertion that the Earth is flat. RE also occasionally reach conclusions that are wrong because they are based on data which contains systematic or human error. Humans and machines after all do make mistakes. Humans probably more so than machines. But at least when this happens we realise it, accept it and then make efforts to correct it.

Further conclusion: FE claim and RE claim cannot both be right or wrong.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2019, 09:37:48 PM by dirtysnowball »

somerled

• 95
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2019, 10:52:19 AM »
I would point out that the diameter of flat earth does not need to known to ascertain the distance to the moon . Simple triangulation from two points a known distance apart allows the calculation .

In the globe model , diameter of earth and hence the curvature needs to known to calculate the distance to moon . The assumptions of sphericity and a distant sun/stars ( all rays coming in parallel at the surface) were required to enable an estimate of globe earth .

All the mainstream astronomic scientific measurements are based on these two unverified assumptions .

The size of the lunar shadow cast onto our earth during solar eclipse varies from 70 - 100 miles we observe . This destroys the distant sun assumption since it is known by scientific experiment that electromagnetic rays propagate according to the inverse square law . The moon cannot be 240,000 miles distant , unless sunlight is focused by some means to shine on earth .

FE or RE measurements can be made without any assumptions , since it is relatively easy to geometrically survey a distance of around a hundred miles or so and any curvature would naturally be picked up . But for some reason surveyors are supposed to apply globe calculations to any survey over a certain length . Is the survey unable to find to find any curvature ?

If RE theory could provide proof of those assumptions then this forum , and FE wouldn't exist , but RE is unable to do so therefore cannot be considered to be correct . All my opinion of course but based on real scientific study.

dirtysnowball

Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2019, 09:33:46 PM »
The Moons true distance has been measured very accurately both by radar and by laser ranging. Two completely different and independent methods and sources.  Both reached the same figure.  You don't need triangulation.

AllAroundTheWorld

• 2444
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #6 on: July 15, 2019, 07:23:43 AM »
The Moons true distance has been measured very accurately both by radar and by laser ranging. Two completely different and independent methods and sources.  Both reached the same figure.  You don't need triangulation.

The problem with triangulation for FE is that although with 2 points and assuming a FE you’d get a different distance, a close moon or sun, if you add more points you get inconsistent distances. This was done with sun observations taken by people in various latitudes. These are the results:

https://www.metabunk.org/flat-earth-debunked-by-measuring-angles-to-the-sun.t9118/
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

somerled

• 95
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #7 on: July 15, 2019, 10:10:21 AM »
The metabunk observations were done at equinox . It is without doubt that southern "hemisphere " equinox occurs later than the northern one . Anyone can check this out - time and date website will verify this. Now that shows that the heliocentric model is wrong . It also shows the propagation of sunlight spreads southwards. It shows that the model of the sun as a distant nuclear furnace is wrong . We do not truly know the nature of the sun or its light . We do know that electromagnetic rays are affected by magnetic fields .
My thoughts are that the the sun is local and that its rays manifest according to the magnetic field they travel through .
They spread southward since the earths magnetic field is toroidal . The north pole at the centre and the southern "pole is spread around the circumference of the Antarctic .
This explains all the differences in sun position according to observer . Explains why equinox differs from globe model prediction .
Why does metabunk show no earth tilt ?

Neither model has a problem with survey triangulation . If we live on a globe then simple survey along a line will pick up any curve. No need to bring sun position or stars into it . A curve of 7.98 " per mile squared is easy to prove along the shore of any inland land body of water of sufficient size .

robinofloxley

• 79
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #8 on: July 15, 2019, 03:20:34 PM »
The metabunk observations were done at equinox . It is without doubt that southern "hemisphere " equinox occurs later than the northern one . Anyone can check this out - time and date website will verify this.
Well I for one was surprised to hear this, so I checked https://www.timeanddate.com/calendar/autumnal-equinox.html and according to them the autumnal equinox this year will be Monday, 23 September 2019, 07:50 UTC. The only adjustment you'd need to make for location would be if you wanted this in local time. So for instance if you were interested in New Zealand (Southern "hemisphere" last time I checked), you'd need to add 12 hours to adjust from UTC to New Zealand local time.

dirtysnowball

Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2019, 04:24:39 PM »
This also matches the timing given by Heavens Above,

https://heavens-above.com/sun.aspx?lat=0&lng=0&loc=Unspecified&alt=0&tz=UCT

Quote
It shows that the model of the sun as a distant nuclear furnace is wrong

The primary energy source of the Suns energy is the nuclear conversion of hydrogen in helium. A process which releases photons (the sunlight we see - eventually) and neutrinos.  That has been proved but if you think you know differently then please enlighten us.

somerled

• 95
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2019, 05:10:37 PM »
The equinox means equal day/night length . Check on time and date sunrise/set times and you will see that equinox occurs at different times in the north and south at corresponding latitudes . These are based on actual timings of sunrise and sunset . The theory that these equinoxes occur when earth is at two opposing point in its solar orbit does not correspond to reality .

If the day/night lengths are not the same then it is not an equinox . Pretending that the equinox is in between somewhere does not solve this problem for globe theory.

robinofloxley

• 79
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2019, 05:37:17 PM »
The equinox means equal day/night length . Check on time and date sunrise/set times and you will see that equinox occurs at different times in the north and south at corresponding latitudes . These are based on actual timings of sunrise and sunset . The theory that these equinoxes occur when earth is at two opposing point in its solar orbit does not correspond to reality .

If the day/night lengths are not the same then it is not an equinox . Pretending that the equinox is in between somewhere does not solve this problem for globe theory.
Well I'm afraid that all you've demonstrated is that you don't know how an equinox is defined. Sunrise and sunset times aren't used to define an equinox. An equinox is timed from when the geometric centre of the sun's disk appears above the horizon to when it disappears. Sunrise however occurs when the sun first appears on the horizon and sunset when the last part of the sun disappears. It takes a while from sunrise until the geometric centre of the sun appears and sunset occurs some time after the geometric centre disappears from view, so on an equinox, you will get more than 12 hours of daylight (sunrise to sunset). How much more depends on where you are. If the sun rises vertically, this will take far less time than if it is rising at a shallow angle.

You've claimed "without doubt...", however you didn't bother to check the true meaning of the word equinox and how it is determined.

You also claimed "anyone can check.." using time and date, without bothering to read what they actually say there about equinoxes.

I'd recommend you go back to time & date (which you obviously trust) and read what they have to say about the matter. https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/equinox-not-equal.html

somerled

• 95
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2019, 06:50:51 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .

stack

• 1253
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2019, 06:56:28 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .

FWIW, you might want to start using a new source for your data. From timeanddate.com:

https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/sunearth-help.html
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

markjo

• Purgatory
• 3798
• Zetetic Council runner-up
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2019, 08:30:26 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .

I think that you're thinking about the equilux, which is not quite the same thing as the equinox:
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

robinofloxley

• 79
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2019, 09:12:52 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .
You want to make use of the time & date web site to find sunrise and sunset times to prove your point. You then want to ignore time & date's own explanation for why you should expect more than 12 hours of daylight on an equinox and instead claim their explanation is wrong and it's "glaringly obvious" that an equinox should have exactly 12 hours of daylight. You are cherry picking. Do you trust time & date or don't you?

You can't just invent your own rules for an equinox, claim everything is "glaringly obvious" when what you say contradicts the very sources you've used to justify your position and then claim globe theory is smoke and mirrors.

robinofloxley

• 79
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2019, 09:23:53 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .

I think that you're thinking about the equilux, which is not quite the same thing as the equinox:

Nah, it's simpler than that. He (I'm assuming he - apologies if not) thinks you should get exactly 12 hours of daylight on the day of an equinox and he's looking at sunrise and sunset times to determine for himself when equinoxes occur - and getting the wrong answers. I already pointed him to an explanation of why this is incorrect and why you cannot simply use sunrise and sunset times https://www.timeanddate.com/astronomy/equinox-not-equal.html

stack

• 1253
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2019, 09:45:33 PM »
It is glaringly  obvious what the word equinox means - read the blurb on the website which states "the equinoxes mark the exact moment twice a year when the earths axis is not tilted away from or towards the sun. "  But that fact is hidden by a load of waffle . Night/day should be equal - hence the "equinox".

Have a look at the solstices day/night lengths - by the same waffle these should fall on different days . But they coincide at northern and southern latitudes - the longest day on northern solstice equates to the shortest southern day . Where is the waffle effect ?

Globe theory is smoke and mirrors .

Equinox definition from Merriam-Webster:

equinox noun
equi·​nox | ˈē-kwə-ˌnäks

1 : either of the two points on the celestial sphere where the celestial equator intersects the ecliptic
2 : either of the two times each year (as about March 21 and September 23) when the sun crosses the equator and day and night are everywhere on earth of approximately equal length

Operative word, 'approximately', not 'exactly'.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

dirtysnowball

Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2019, 09:50:07 PM »
Approximately is the key word here.  As quoted on the main Wikipedia page about the equinox (which I am sure somerled has checked out already)…

Quote
The word is derived from the Latin aequinoctium, from aequus (equal) and nox (genitive noctis) (night). On the day of an equinox, daytime and nighttime are of approximately equal duration all over the planet. They are not exactly equal, however, due to the angular size of the Sun, atmospheric refraction, and the rapidly changing duration of the length of day that occurs at most latitudes around the equinoxes. Long before conceiving this equality, primitive cultures noted the day when the Sun rises due East and sets due West, and indeed this happens on the day closest to the astronomically defined event.

model 29

• 397
Re: When rockets launch....
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2019, 10:29:53 PM »
At my latitude 55 degrees north equinox occurs 5 days prior to the corresponding southern latitude equinox.
The equinox happens at the same time for the planet.  Do you have a source stating there are 2 equinoxes 5 days apart?

The size of the lunar shadow cast onto our earth during solar eclipse varies from 70 - 100 miles we observe . This destroys the distant sun assumption since it is known by scientific experiment that electromagnetic rays propagate according to the inverse square law . The moon cannot be 240,000 miles distant , unless sunlight is focused by some means to shine on earth .
The eclipse shadow umbra (approx 70 miles) is just what we should expect with a sun 864k miles in diameter, 93 million miles away, shining on an object 2,100 miles in diameter and 240k miles away between the globe and sun.