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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #120 on: August 20, 2019, 04:30:56 PM »
...

I happen to believe that even science suggests the RET/spinning globe is capable of experiencing change in velocity and gaining/losing time over incidents such as giant earthquakes.

So, I wouldn't be so quick to discount the apparent stoppage of the sun and moon in the sky.

As for it being evidence of a flat earth, I agree. It would be silly to even suggest the stoppage of the sun/moon is related to a flat earth.

What caused you to correlate the two?

This verse was mentioned above:

Josh 10:13
The sun stood still and the moon stood motionless while the nation took vengeance on its enemies. The event is recorded in the Scroll of the Upright One. The sun stood motionless in the middle of the sky and did not set for about a full day.

It is being used to suggest the earth is flat since suddenly stopping rotation would cause a massive inertia backlash if the earth was spinning.

When you are pointing out how the bible suggests the earth is flat, your argument assumes a literal interpretation of the bible, so you literally ARE taking those scriptures LITERALLY. When it says "ends of the earth", you are taking that as the earth literally has ends. "To the four corners of the earth" you are taking it that the earth literally has four corners - hence you are taking it literally.
I am not taking it literally.

I am pointing out, as does your own source (which I quoted) states the Bible does suggest the earth is flat.

OK - let's try this again:

If I say you are "as fit as a fiddle", figuratively that means you are in good shape. Literally, that means your fitness is that of a fiddle - which doesn't make sense.

If I say you have a "heart of gold", figuratively that means you have a good heart, and you are a kind person. Literally, that means your heart is metallic gold, and you wouldn't be alive.

If someone says "I will follow you to the ends of the earth". Does that mean they will follow you until you fall of the earth?...... No, that means they will follow you wherever you go.

Do you see the difference between figurative and literal?

Let's pick at this verse:

Revelation 7:1
After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind would blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree.

Four angels, four winds, four corners.... Literally that means that the earth is square, and there are four angels standing at each corner holding back the wind - the four winds, to be exact.

So, there are only four winds on earth? That doesn't make sense.... unless you're describing that the wind generally comes from either the north, south, east, or west - that makes sense. Maybe this verse just means there was such a calming on earth that there was no wind. So calm that the trees weren't blowing their leaves and the lakes had no waves.

You see, the latter explanation I gave is a figurative interpretation. The former is the literal.

Any explanation of the scripture that "seems to suggest the earth is flat" is also taking these scriptures literally - which is absurd.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 04:33:35 PM by timterroo »
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #121 on: August 20, 2019, 05:22:05 PM »
Even if it literally stopped in the sky, how is this evidence of a flat earth?



In the RE model the earth is spinning at something like 900 miles per hour. This spinning is what causes the sun to rise and fall. In the RE model, in order for the sun to stay in the sky, the earth would have to go from spinning at 900 miles per hour to spinning at 0 miles per hour. Think of a car hitting a brick wall at 900 miles per hour.  According to the RE model the law of inertia would fling us all into brick walls or trees and literally destroy the entire earth.

In the FE model the sun rise and set is most commonly caused by the motion of the sun not the motion of the earth so if it came to screeching halt no one on earth would be effected and it would not be violating the law of inertia.



The bible is also difficult to take literally, and depending on the translation, can be interpreted in multiple ways. I find in hard to take those scriptures literally.

"The world is firmly established, it will not be moved."

Is that the roman army bragging about its everlasting reign and power? Another empire maybe? I'm not a historian, but the odds are pretty good that the interpretation of an un-moving world being a flat earth is pretty low considering the ("world of pure imagination" - willy wonka.) alternatives.

This is the first verse of chapter 93. Chapter 93 is not about armies, it's not about people, it's entirely about God.

93:1   The LORD reigns. He has majesty and strength.  The earth is firmly established and can't be moved or will never be moved.
93:2   The throne of the LORD was established long ago and either the throne or God (or both) are everlasting
93:3   The seas/flood/waters have lifted up o LORD, the seas/flood/waters have lifted up their voice. the seas/flood/waters lifted up their waves/roaring
93:4   the LORD is mightier than the seas/flood/waters described above.
93:5   The LORDS statues/laws/decrees/testimonies are firm/trustworthy/unchanging/sure and the house of the LORD will be holy forever/forevermore/eternity.

End of chapter. Nothing about nations, Romans, Israelites etc.


« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 05:32:11 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #122 on: August 20, 2019, 05:31:45 PM »
Even if it literally stopped in the sky, how is this evidence of a flat earth?



In the RE model the earth is spinning at something like 900 miles per hour. This spinning is what causes the sun to rise and fall. In the RE model, in order for the sun to stay in the sky, the earth would have to go from spinning at 900 miles per hour to spinning at 0 miles per hour. Think of a car hitting a brick wall at 900 miles per hour.  According to the RE model the law of inertia would fling us all into brick walls or trees and literally destroy the entire earth.

In the FE model the sun rise and set is most commonly caused by the motion of the sun not the motion of the earth so if it came to screeching halt no one on earth would be effected and it would not be violating the law of inertia.

Iamcpc, thank you, I realized this implication while arguing with lackey. If the sun literally did stop in the middle of the sky, that would create chaos in both models, and lead to more questions about what moves the sun and so forth.

I hate to sound cliche, but this is also a case of incorrectly assuming a literal translation of the event. Is it too hard to believe that someone might write about a dramatic battle and in an attempt to accurately portray the chaos, describe a long, terribly pain-stricken day as a day in which the sun and moon came to a halt (for a day).

I'd also like to point out that it all occurred conveniently within a single day - just as if the sun were behaving normally...
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #123 on: August 20, 2019, 06:03:50 PM »

This is the first verse of chapter 93. Chapter 93 is not about armies, it's not about people, it's entirely about God.

93:1   The LORD reigns. He has majesty and strength.  The earth is firmly established and can't be moved or will never be moved.
93:2   The throne of the LORD was established long ago and either the throne or God (or both) are everlasting
93:3   The seas/flood/waters have lifted up o LORD, the seas/flood/waters have lifted up their voice. the seas/flood/waters lifted up their waves/roaring
93:4   the LORD is mightier than the seas/flood/waters described above.
93:5   The LORDS statues/laws/decrees/testimonies are firm/trustworthy/unchanging/sure and the house of the LORD will be holy forever/forevermore/eternity.

End of chapter. Nothing about nations, Romans, Israelites etc.

First off, I would question the translation of the word "earth". What version is this scripture taken from? The word "earth" could be a Hebrew word that translates to something similar to "earth". Such a word could be "Adamah" which  means "ground".

So, "The earth is firmly established and can't be moved or will never be moved." could actually be "The ground is firmly established and can't be moved or will never be moved."

Such a scripture could be interpreted to mean that the Lord has established a solid foundation. Such an interpretation fits nicely with the remainder of the scripture you quoted.

- the LORD is mightier than the seas/flood/waters described above.
- The LORDS statues/laws/decrees/testimonies are firm/trustworthy/unchanging/sure and the house of the LORD will be holy forever/forevermore/eternity.

All of this, to me, sounds like a Lord that has a solid foundation and is un-moving.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 06:10:47 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #124 on: August 20, 2019, 06:16:32 PM »
But seriously, either way, how is a non-moving earth evidence that the earth is flat? FET still requires UA which means the earth definitely moves - just not the same way RE does.

In either theory, a non-moving earth posses numerous problems.
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #125 on: August 20, 2019, 10:21:05 PM »
First off, I would question the translation of the word "earth".


Some translations use the word "world"

Psalm 104:5 talks about how the God set the earth on it's foundations and it can never be moved. You could easily debate the bible is documenting a man's prayer but there are a good number of people who would argue that it's the holy infallible word of got that the world/earth does not move and it can not move.


But seriously, either way, how is a non-moving earth evidence that the earth is flat?


I can see, plain as day, the sun moving across the sky. The RE model says this is because the earth is spinning. Since we know the earth is not spinning because of the word of God then we know the RE model is wrong.

in addition the RE model says that the earth orbits the sun. We know that can't be possible either because the earth does not move.
What other possible ways could the earth function so that the sun can move across the sky without the earth rotating?

Here's an idea. Maybe the sun and moon are both moving but the earth is not as shown here:





FET still requires UA which means the earth definitely moves - just not the same way RE does.

There are many FE models which don't use UA. A biblical non moving earth model would use gravity instead of UA.
« Last Edit: August 20, 2019, 10:26:16 PM by iamcpc »

newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #126 on: August 20, 2019, 10:58:51 PM »
So what would you define the 'word of God' to be exactly than?  If something exists then it must be able to be defined.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #127 on: August 20, 2019, 11:45:26 PM »
So what would you define the 'word of God' to be exactly than?  If something exists then it must be able to be defined.

Me personally I don't adhere to the biblical FE models. I don't think we should model our understanding of the world around us based on a book which is 2,000 years old.

I'm speaking on behalf of those who believe that, the verses i mentioned are taken in the most literal sense possible. The 'word of God' according to Christianity is the old and new testament. Judaism has the Torah as the word of God which is based off of the old testament. Islam believes in the prophets of both the old and new testament but mainly follows the Koran as the word of God.

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Offline stack

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #128 on: August 20, 2019, 11:54:29 PM »
Thought you guys might be interested. Tom has a whole write-up over on the other site titled "Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?" It's really quite well thought out. My understanding is that it's sort of in regard to UA. UA, essentially puts the earth in motion, upward. A ton of the FEr's outside of these 2 societies, especially the more scripturally minded ones, have publicly disavowed the societies and called them controlled opposition, shills, what have you, in large part because of UA, earth in motion.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #129 on: August 21, 2019, 01:37:49 AM »
Thought you guys might be interested. Tom has a whole write-up over on the other site titled "Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?" It's really quite well thought out. My understanding is that it's sort of in regard to UA. UA, essentially puts the earth in motion, upward. A ton of the FEr's outside of these 2 societies, especially the more scripturally minded ones, have publicly disavowed the societies and called them controlled opposition, shills, what have you, in large part because of UA, earth in motion.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0


In our current understanding of motion is when the position of an object, with respect to it's surroundings, changes. If the entire universe is accelerating upward then the earth, relative to the universe, is not in motion. Again when I went to speak with a preacher about this his take was that the earth does not move outside of the physical universe IE nonliving portion of the planet will never cease to exist within the physical universe and appear somewhere outside the realm of existence such as Heaven.

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Offline stack

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #130 on: August 21, 2019, 02:21:50 AM »
Thought you guys might be interested. Tom has a whole write-up over on the other site titled "Does the Bible say that Earth is Stationary?" It's really quite well thought out. My understanding is that it's sort of in regard to UA. UA, essentially puts the earth in motion, upward. A ton of the FEr's outside of these 2 societies, especially the more scripturally minded ones, have publicly disavowed the societies and called them controlled opposition, shills, what have you, in large part because of UA, earth in motion.

https://www.theflatearthsociety.org/forum/index.php?topic=79554.0

In our current understanding of motion is when the position of an object, with respect to it's surroundings, changes. If the entire universe is accelerating upward then the earth, relative to the universe, is not in motion. Again when I went to speak with a preacher about this his take was that the earth does not move outside of the physical universe IE nonliving portion of the planet will never cease to exist within the physical universe and appear somewhere outside the realm of existence such as Heaven.

Yeah, it's actually murkier than that, I mean if everything is in motion together then nothing is in motion... But I agree with your definition of motion. All I'm saying is that Tom has gone to great lengths to point out scriptural references to, and I'm using my words and interpretation, allow for an upward accelerating earth. And that's regardless of whether the universe is moving along with us. And that perception, that any sort of motion is applied to the earth, from what I have seen and read, is the number one reason FEr's outside the societies lash out at the societies. They see it as simply, UA puts the earth in motion and from a scriptural perspective, that is anathema.

So I'm not debating any of these notions, just pointing out a contrary resource of information and why perhaps it's controversial in some circles.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #131 on: August 21, 2019, 10:38:37 AM »
EDITED FOR BREVITY..."...I question if you know the difference between figurative and literal language."
Yes I do.

I am not taking a position on the issue of figurative and literal language within the Bible.

I am taking a position on whether or not the Bible is suggestive of a flat earth.

Once more, your own source (as I have pointed out), indicates the Bible does suggest a flat earth.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #132 on: August 21, 2019, 02:08:54 PM »
EDITED FOR BREVITY..."...I question if you know the difference between figurative and literal language."
Yes I do.

I am not taking a position on the issue of figurative and literal language within the Bible.

I am taking a position on whether or not the Bible is suggestive of a flat earth.

Once more, your own source (as I have pointed out), indicates the Bible does suggest a flat earth.

OK - but the bible is only suggestive if you take it literally. If you take those scriptures figuratively, it has nothing to do with the earth being flat.

Furthermore, you keep saying "your own source" (referencing the link I posted) says blah blah blah, and using that to discredit what I'm saying, but that is irrelevant to my point about interpreting things as literal or figurative.

Did you even read the link I sent? It argues against using the bible as evidence for a flat earth.
« Last Edit: August 21, 2019, 02:25:57 PM by timterroo »
"noche te ipsum"

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newhorizons

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #133 on: August 21, 2019, 04:13:36 PM »
Take yourself back to the time of the bible for a moment.  What observations or evidence did the people who lived at the time have about what shape the Earth is?  Only what their own eyes could show them. They observed all the same natural celestial events in the sky that we do but they had absolutely no idea what was happening or what caused them. Their only tool beyond their own eyes was their imagination. They could see things happen but they had no control over them, they couldn't predict them and so those factors combined essentially led them unavoidably to the conclusion that some 'thing' was behind it all. 

That thing must be something well beyond what humans could understand (at the time) and therefore it must be more powerful than any human. That to me is how the concept of God came about. Even today if something cannot be explained by the known laws of nature then it placed under the umbrella of 'power of God'. The Higgs Boson was referred to as the God Particle before it was discovered by the LHC.

We understand a lot more about the power of nature and the laws of physics now and so events and phenomenon that once were simply attributed to the power of God are now better understood. Some of the mystery attached to these things is now clearer in our minds. That is not to say we would now declare ourselves to know everything. Far from it and that is what makes science fun. The quest for knowledge. There are a few things that we can safely conclude now, regardless of what you say the bible says or the word of God says and one those I would contend is that the Earth ain't flat. Dismiss me or disagree with me as much as you like but its true.

Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #134 on: August 21, 2019, 06:52:15 PM »
EDITED FOR BREVITY..."...I question if you know the difference between figurative and literal language."
Yes I do.

I am not taking a position on the issue of figurative and literal language within the Bible.

I am taking a position on whether or not the Bible is suggestive of a flat earth.

Once more, your own source (as I have pointed out), indicates the Bible does suggest a flat earth.

OK - but the bible is only suggestive if you take it literally. If you take those scriptures figuratively, it has nothing to do with the earth being flat.

Furthermore, you keep saying "your own source" (referencing the link I posted) says blah blah blah, and using that to discredit what I'm saying, but that is irrelevant to my point about interpreting things as literal or figurative.

Did you even read the link I sent? It argues against using the bible as evidence for a flat earth.
I quote it, so it is a pretty fair bet to state I read the material on the link you sent.

And I am not discrediting what you write about figurative and literal.

I understand your point about that.

My point is the Bible suggests a flat earth.

It does not literally (or even figuratively) state "flat earth," but the question of literal phrasing or figurative phrasing was not addressed in the post to which I responded.

Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #135 on: August 21, 2019, 08:25:14 PM »

OK - but the bible is only suggestive if you take it literally. If you take those scriptures figuratively, it has nothing to do with the earth being flat.

Furthermore, you keep saying "your own source" (referencing the link I posted) says blah blah blah, and using that to discredit what I'm saying, but that is irrelevant to my point about interpreting things as literal or figurative.

Did you even read the link I sent? It argues against using the bible as evidence for a flat earth.

The link you sent does not mention the many verses in which the bible says the earth does not move and the scripture about when the sun stopped moving.

Those are much more clear. Especially when you have a very short chapter and the entire context of the chapter is God and one of the verses says that the earth does not move or can not move.

Its pretty clear. The earth either does not move or it can't move or both. The only way the earth could not figuratively move is if it somehow moved out of this physical plane of existence and moved into some sort of spiritual plane of existence. I believe that moving to a different plane of existence is still "moving" so even taking in a spiritual sense you are still using the literal definition of the word.

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Offline stack

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #136 on: August 21, 2019, 08:41:19 PM »

OK - but the bible is only suggestive if you take it literally. If you take those scriptures figuratively, it has nothing to do with the earth being flat.

Furthermore, you keep saying "your own source" (referencing the link I posted) says blah blah blah, and using that to discredit what I'm saying, but that is irrelevant to my point about interpreting things as literal or figurative.

Did you even read the link I sent? It argues against using the bible as evidence for a flat earth.

The link you sent does not mention the many verses in which the bible says the earth does not move and the scripture about when the sun stopped moving.

Those are much more clear. Especially when you have a very short chapter and the entire context of the chapter is God and one of the verses says that the earth does not move or can not move.

Its pretty clear. The earth either does not move or it can't move or both. The only way the earth could not figuratively move is if it somehow moved out of this physical plane of existence and moved into some sort of spiritual plane of existence. I believe that moving to a different plane of existence is still "moving" so even taking in a spiritual sense you are still using the literal definition of the word.

What's always interesting is that if you got 20 biblical scholars in a room, 10 would say figuratively, literally, suggestively, whatever, the scriptures say the earth does not move. The other 10 would disagree. Just watch the Skiba/Sungenis debate and how they spent 3/4's of it arguing about whether a hebrew word for 'firmament' meant 'under' or 'in'.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #137 on: August 21, 2019, 10:07:33 PM »

OK - but the bible is only suggestive if you take it literally. If you take those scriptures figuratively, it has nothing to do with the earth being flat.

Furthermore, you keep saying "your own source" (referencing the link I posted) says blah blah blah, and using that to discredit what I'm saying, but that is irrelevant to my point about interpreting things as literal or figurative.

Did you even read the link I sent? It argues against using the bible as evidence for a flat earth.

The link you sent does not mention the many verses in which the bible says the earth does not move and the scripture about when the sun stopped moving.

Those are much more clear. Especially when you have a very short chapter and the entire context of the chapter is God and one of the verses says that the earth does not move or can not move.

Its pretty clear. The earth either does not move or it can't move or both. The only way the earth could not figuratively move is if it somehow moved out of this physical plane of existence and moved into some sort of spiritual plane of existence. I believe that moving to a different plane of existence is still "moving" so even taking in a spiritual sense you are still using the literal definition of the word.

OK - I have a New King James Bible, a Vine's complete expository dictionary of old and new testament, plus a Strong's Exhaustive concordance of the bible (it's like 2500 pages)

I will find some verses about the earth being un-moved, and attempt my own interpretation of them. If you have any of your own verses, I'd be glad to pick at those as well.
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Offline timterroo

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #138 on: August 21, 2019, 10:41:57 PM »
1 Chronicles 16:30 - "Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established. It shall not be moved."

In order to understand what this verse is talking about, you have to read from the beginning of the chapter. It is a song of thanksgiving by King David of Israel. He is talking about how great the Lord is, ruler of all the earth. "Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples."

David wants the Israelites to know that the Lord's strength is unwavering and all the world shall give glory to His name.

In the Bible, the word "world" is often used metonymically to mean "human race, mankind". If you read the entire chapter, it is clear that "world" is being used to mean "mankind" rather than a celestial body.

Imagine a song proclaiming that all the world rejoice in the name of the lord and hail His greatness for ever and ever, and ,oh btw, the planet earth doesn't move.... excuse me?!

Taking this verse to mean earth literally does not move is taking it out of context.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2019, 12:40:04 AM by timterroo »
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Offline iamcpc

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Re: Why should the Earth be flat?
« Reply #139 on: August 22, 2019, 03:58:07 PM »
1 Chronicles 16:30 - "Tremble before Him, all the earth. The world also is firmly established. It shall not be moved."

In order to understand what this verse is talking about, you have to read from the beginning of the chapter. It is a song of thanksgiving by King David of Israel. He is talking about how great the Lord is, ruler of all the earth. "Declare His glory among the nations, His wonders among all peoples."

David wants the Israelites to know that the Lord's strength is unwavering and all the world shall give glory to His name.

In the Bible, the word "world" is often used metonymically to mean "human race, mankind". If you read the entire chapter, it is clear that "world" is being used to mean "mankind" rather than a celestial body.

Imagine a song proclaiming that all the world rejoice in the name of the lord and hail His greatness for ever and ever, and ,oh btw, the planet earth doesn't move.... excuse me?!

Taking this verse to mean earth literally does not move is taking it out of context.


That really does not make sense. The human race is firmly established it shall not be moved?