Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #60 on: June 19, 2019, 08:48:36 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

I want to emphasize this simple fact to you.A flat hula hoop will look straight only if the point of view is completely parallel to it. Otherwise, even the smallest curvature will increase sharply on the left and right sides of the hoop, because it is an ellipse.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 09:10:18 AM by proponent »

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #61 on: June 19, 2019, 09:19:02 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 

You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.

So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2019, 09:22:42 AM »
I can't watch youtube

Can't watch YT, can't use a simple drawing program to make an illustration, and English not your first language.

Boy, this IS going well. Nobody can understand you, so now you're posting multi-coloured replies, since you've seen me use it in quoted replies to distinguish my text from the quote.

Honestly, colouring-in is NOT making your point any better than plain black text did on page 1.

Shall we move on to parchment and quill pens?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #63 on: June 19, 2019, 09:37:05 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 09:46:19 AM by proponent »

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2019, 09:52:07 AM »
If the sea line is an arc with high in the middle and low on the left and right ends it will not close around.It's a simple fact.
If the sea line is a straight line and the sea surface is a sphere.The sea line will close in a circle.

What you really mean by "sea line"?  The horizon?  If yes, it is not a line.  A line is something that connects two points, and it is straight, if not it will be a "curve".

So, rephrasing your first sentence, "If the sea curve is an arc, with high in the middle and low on the sides, it will not close around, It's a simple fact".... and NO, it can close on the bottom.  An arc can be part of a round circle or ellipsoid closed object.   Why you say it can not close around? as a fact... ?   That is what nobody is understanding.  What you mean by that?  By any chance are you saying it will not "close around horizontally"?  If yes, you need to put more words in the text, so we don't get confused.

Your second sentence makes no sense at all.  "If the sea line(?) is straight and the sea surface is a sphere, the sea line(?) will close in a circle". 

Again, this is a very difficult (for me) to understand what you mean by "sea line".  What you mean by "sea line is straight"?

The sea surface is not a sphere, never is.  A sphere represents a globe, the Earth's oceans do not make a globe, they are over a globe, the patches of land above the water makes it not a spherical water.   Think with me, when you submerge an orange under water, still a spherical orange, even when you remove from water and it still all wet, still a spherical orange.  The water could be covering a spherical orange, spherical planet and ultimate copying its format, but it is not a sphere.

Rethink and rephrase, mostly about the "sea line".
Thank you for your advice. I really didn't express myself clearly enough

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2019, 10:03:27 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 

>>>> a country,yes


You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.

>>> no,not first language.

So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?

Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.

So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.

Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

If you want to insert answers into a quote, you need to use the colours, and possibly other markers such as line breaks to mark them out.

I've corrected it for you above, for clarity.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline stack

  • *
  • Posts: 3583
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2019, 10:04:04 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

Point missing: the earth is massive. You don't see it's curvature from just staring out at the horizon. The number one argument: It looks flat.

But what I think you're describing is earth shape agnostic. On a flat earth the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. To use your words. On a globe earth, the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. So what's your point?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2019, 10:07:43 AM »
Proponent, can I suggest for an experiment that you take a few of your significant points above, and paste them into an online translator in your native language, and use that to convert it to English.

Then post the translator's English output here. 

This may result in a clearer statement than you posting in what you think is correct English, and we may understand you better, and make better progress in determining what puzzles you.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2019, 10:09:06 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 

>>>> a country,yes


You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.

>>> no,not first language.

So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?

Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.

So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.

Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

If you want to insert answers into a quote, you need to use the colours, and possibly other markers such as line breaks to mark them out.

I've corrected it for you above, for clarity.
thank you.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2019, 10:16:51 AM »
proponent, do you have access to youtube? Perhaps I could make you a video?
I can't watch youtube, thank you, but I just told you why the hula hoop example doesn't fit on the horizon.If you still don't understand, please tell me what you don't understand and I will try my best to explain it to you.

Are you in Jail? Why can't you watch YouTube? Perhaps a country that prevents it? No wonder we're having such a difficult time communicating. 
a country,yes
You didn't tell us why the hula hoop example doesn't fit the horizon. You simply said a whole bunch of words in various font colors that literally make no sense. Now English may not be your first language and you speak it far better than I could speak what I could imagine to be your first language, but for what it's worth, you are speaking gibberish.
no,not first language.
So you think the earth is flat. Not a globe. You look around at sea and see just a horizontal horizon line in all directions. A horizontal horizon line in all directions means to you, somehow, that you're not standing on a ball shaped earth because the horizontal horizon line around you would have to be a circle. And that just can't be. Why?
Because a circle is a finite size and a closed graph, a finite size and a closed graph means that if the front and back of the horizon are straight lines, they overlap, so that the horizon doesn't appear in both directions at the same time.If the horizon is not straight and has a small curvature there will be a significant curvature on the left and right sides of the horizon.
So this proves that the horizon is not a circle flattened to look like a straight line.Because they don't overlap in a line, and they don't have curvature on either side.
Let me add.The horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time.

Point missing: the earth is massive. You don't see it's curvature from just staring out at the horizon. The number one argument: It looks flat.

But what I think you're describing is earth shape agnostic. On a flat earth the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. To use your words. On a globe earth, the horizon doesn't just appear in front of you, it's also behind you, at the same time. So what's your point?
<<<<<
exactly.If the horizon were a circle, it would appear in only one direction, not two.Because the circle is connected, the two straight segments that are connected with two intersecting points will overlap and become one.So it's impossible to have a horizon in front and behind at the same time.
If it is not a straight line, then a rapidly increasing curvature is observed on the left and right sides.That's the law of ellipses.
This translation software may not fully express what I want to say.

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2019, 10:24:43 AM »
I THINK "sea line" means horizon. The line between the ocean and the sky. Is that correct?

correct

My best guess is that "radian" means curve. Like when you say, "it's a small radian," you mean "it isn't perfectly straight." Is that right?

right

If I may attempt to rephrase your question based on my best guesses about what you mean... please tell me is this what you are trying to ask?

If I look out over the ocean, the horizon is a perfectly straight line. The horizon is flat and level. The REs tell me that the horizon is slightly curved, but it looks very flat to me. If it WERE curved, that would mean the edges are slightly lower than the middle. If so, then as I turn in a circle, the horizon must dip lower in the back and raise up again as I come all the way around. It doesn't do that. I will explain this by making a panoramic photo. Look North at the horizon and take a photo. Now turn East 10 degrees and take another. Go all the way around taking photos every 10 degrees. Now print those photos out and try to line them up. If the horizon were truly curved, we could not line those photos up along a straight line - it would have to curve.

How's that? Is that what you're trying to talk about?

What I'm saying is that they can't be connected in a circle


Tumeni asks -  WHY NOT?


The classic example of this is an orange slice. Imagine an ant standing on an orange. The ant cannot see all the way around the orange. Let's say the ant can see 1 cm in front of him on the orange - because the orange is curved. He can also see 1 cm to the right, 1 cm to the left, and 1 cm behind. Draw a circle on the orange 1 cm in radius (2 cm diameter) with the ant at the center. This line you just drew is the ant's horizon. Now slice the orange right through the line you drew. That slice you just made is everything the ant can see. Look at that shape from different angles to understand exactly what we're talking about.

Is that what we're talking about?

You don't understand what I'm saying, so you're giving the wrong example

Tumeni says - what is the RIGHT example, then?

Please try to understand the following words. If the horizon is a circle, if it just looks like a straight line, then one cannot see a straight line in front and a straight line in the back, and they are not yet connected to one straight line, because they are a whole, and they intersect.  Then the horizon is not a circle, and indeed it can only be a straight line in any direction, proving that the surface of the sea or the ground between the horizons is a plane, not a sphere.

Simple geometry.

Look at it from some distance above the observer on the surface, the observer's horizon will be a circle around him. Look at it from outside his viewpoint, it will look like a chord across a circle, where the chord is the base of the spherical cap. Move above this point (which is level with the base of the cap), and it will look like a half ellipse (you won't see the half on the far side.

See my diagram above for the Spherical Cap, and also see related Spherical Segment, and Chord of a Circle.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spherical_segment

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chord_(geometry)

« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 10:43:37 AM by Tumeni »
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline AATW

  • *
  • Posts: 6678
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2019, 10:27:57 AM »
The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility. If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?
Tom: "Claiming incredulity is a pretty bad argument. Calling it "insane" or "ridiculous" is not a good argument at all."

TFES Wiki Occam's Razor page, by Tom: "What's the simplest explanation; that NASA has successfully designed and invented never before seen rocket technologies from scratch which can accelerate 100 tons of matter to an escape velocity of 7 miles per second"

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2019, 10:41:55 AM »
Spherical Cap - look from outwith the Earth, and you see the solid line, but not the dotted.



This view is from a point above the plane of the base of the cap. Move further up to see the dotted line.

Your observer, in the middle of the horizon line, is at the top of line h, isn't he?
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2019, 11:07:24 AM »
The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility. If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?
Yes!!Finally one came to the question.I'll give you a rundown of the situation and explain it to you.
If it's not blocked, you can see far away, like the moon.
But the horizon is a line formed by the surface of the earth from any direction, shrinking in the distance to a point where it is hard to see.Distant objects appear smaller and the surface of the earth is an infinite plane, which is the reason for the horizon rather than visibility.It is not formed by air visibility, so it has nothing to do with roundness.
It is not a circle as I have proved in previous replies to others.Because both the front and the back horizon exist at the same time it turns out that they are not connected and closed into a finite size pattern.
The answer is that they don't connect and close to a finite size graph, they form an infinite size plane.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 11:16:43 AM by proponent »

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2019, 01:06:53 PM »
The horizon would be a circle even if the earth were flat. Assuming visibility distance is consistent and nothing obscures your view, the horizon would be the limit of visibility.

(Tumeni adds, for clarity - that's the limit of visibilty OF THE SURFACE. Objects above the surface can be visible above the horizon)

If the distance you can see is the same in all directions then that's a circle, isn't it? The difference on a flat earth is there's no reason you'd get a sharp horizon line. The earth would simply fade out as it does on a foggy day when visibility is less than the distance to the horizon. I can't think of any reason there would be a sharp horizon line a few miles from your position, what stops you seeing further?

If it's not blocked, you can see far away, like the moon. But the horizon is a line formed by the surface of the earth from any direction, shrinking in the distance to a point where it is hard to see.

Tumeni says - only if weather or atmospherics gets in the way. Otherwise the horizon is NOT "hard to see"

Distant objects appear smaller and the surface of the earth is an infinite plane, which is the reason for the horizon rather than visibility. It is not formed by air visibility, so it has nothing to do with roundness. It is not a circle as I have proved in previous replies to others. Because both the front and the back horizon exist at the same time it turns out that they are not connected and closed into a finite size pattern. The answer is that they don't connect and close to a finite size graph, they form an infinite size plane.

Disagree, three or four times over.
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

*

Offline Tumeni

  • *
  • Posts: 3179
    • View Profile
Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2019, 01:17:07 PM »
People who think the earth or sea is a sphere tell me this:Sea lines-horizon are arcs with very small radians-curvature.
but,If what they say is true,
I should like to know, from the point of view of a man in the middle of the sea, how, in the case of radians-curvature, the sea lines in all directions close on the spherical surface of the sea?
If this "arc" could be closed, the left and right ends of the sea line should have a pronounced twist at any observer's Angle, because the closed sea line looks like a lying circle that is an ellipse, and the two ends of the ellipse look like this.Isn't it?
I can only imagine this happening when the sea is flat, the sea is straight, and the distant object looks smaller.I really can't imagine how this could have happened if the sea was a sphere and the sea was curved.
If anyone knows, please draw a picture to explain it, although I don't think anyone knows.
By the way,I have read in Buddhist texts that the volcano is because there are six other SUNS at the bottom of the sea.
I'm sure not many people have even heard of it.So I'm just paraphrasing it.

This is post #1. The quote doesn't show it, but

"« Last Edit: Today at 11:07:16 AM by proponent »"

Proponent, if you're going to, after four pages, go back and CHANGE THE FIRST POST, then you should MAKE IT CLEAR what you have changed...
=============================
Not Flat. Happy to prove this, if you ask me.
=============================

Nearly all flat earthers agree the earth is not a globe.

Nearly?

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2019, 03:55:01 PM »
Again, everyone is failing to understand a fundamental concept of visual geometry.

Think about a gigantic torus like the one below, 300m in radius.
Now close the top with a gigantic circular board, just to cover and ignore the central inner circles orange and below.
Go to the center top of such board, go up 20 meters, so you can see better around.
Now look all around you, 360°.
Do you think you would see the external orange or yellow bands?
Of course not, they will be below the "red horizon" bands all around you.
Keep climbing so your head would be few meters over the top most red band.  What you see?  Only red horizon.

Even that a strong curvature exists from red to external orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, etc, you can't see that curvature, anywhere you look around you, you only see a red horizon.

You can not see any curvature on the red concentric circles, because there are no vertical curvature there, only flat horizontal circles.  The trick here is that all curvature lines start from your point of view in a line that goes away from you.

See, the visual red horizon band is not higher in the center with the sides (left and right) going down, no way, it can't, because when you turn your head, all the red horizon will make a flat plain horizontal line, even that the next red band would be below the horizon, making a curvature from you to ahead, in all directions.

This effect will always happens while you have the object all around you, no matter the altitude you are from that object.  It means, if you turn your head all around and still see the object in all directions.   The only way to see the curvature from red to orange, yellow, etc, is to get out of the top center of the object, away enough to see the object as a whole in just one direction at certain angle, so you would see  the torus as in the image, curvature and all.

Replace the torus with the planet Earth, to see it whole in a single view, curvature and all, you would need to be probably more than 20 to 30 thousand miles in space.   While you are close to the planet, no matter the altitude, if you turn your head and still see the planet all around you, the horizon will be a flat horizontal circle line all around you, impossible not to be like that.



And no, you can calculate as much as you want, the only way to see the small degree of curvature as someone calculated in a previous post, is if you slice the planet in vertical half, like a half orange, then go away back and face the cut. 

Think with me, if you see ANY horizontal drop at your left of right horizon with the center a little bit up, as in a curvature, what happen when you turn your head to the right? that drop would be more pronounced?, what about on your back? that drop would be adding to be way below you?  No, the horizon is a straight flat circle all around you.  The next concentric circle further from the horizon would be below the horizon and you can't see it, the horizon image blocks such view. You can, of course, the the inner concentric circle before the horizon, and you will see it all around you, as another flat horizontal circle.

There is not curvature drop to measure while you are sitting on such sphere, the horizon is a flat horizontal circle all around you.  In open ocean, the horizon would be at the same distance from you, no matter the direction you look, this makes the horizon a circle around you, leveled, horizontal, no curvature.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 03:58:19 PM by spherical »

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2019, 04:42:13 PM »
Again, everyone is failing to understand a fundamental concept of visual geometry.

Think about a gigantic torus like the one below, 300m in radius.
Now close the top with a gigantic circular board, just to cover and ignore the central inner circles orange and below.
Go to the center top of such board, go up 20 meters, so you can see better around.
Now look all around you, 360°.
Do you think you would see the external orange or yellow bands?
Of course not, they will be below the "red horizon" bands all around you.
Keep climbing so your head would be few meters over the top most red band.  What you see?  Only red horizon.

Even that a strong curvature exists from red to external orange, yellow, green, cyan, blue, etc, you can't see that curvature, anywhere you look around you, you only see a red horizon.

You can not see any curvature on the red concentric circles, because there are no vertical curvature there, only flat horizontal circles.  The trick here is that all curvature lines start from your point of view in a line that goes away from you.

See, the visual red horizon band is not higher in the center with the sides (left and right) going down, no way, it can't, because when you turn your head, all the red horizon will make a flat plain horizontal line, even that the next red band would be below the horizon, making a curvature from you to ahead, in all directions.

This effect will always happens while you have the object all around you, no matter the altitude you are from that object.  It means, if you turn your head all around and still see the object in all directions.   The only way to see the curvature from red to orange, yellow, etc, is to get out of the top center of the object, away enough to see the object as a whole in just one direction at certain angle, so you would see  the torus as in the image, curvature and all.

Replace the torus with the planet Earth, to see it whole in a single view, curvature and all, you would need to be probably more than 20 to 30 thousand miles in space.   While you are close to the planet, no matter the altitude, if you turn your head and still see the planet all around you, the horizon will be a flat horizontal circle line all around you, impossible not to be like that.



And no, you can calculate as much as you want, the only way to see the small degree of curvature as someone calculated in a previous post, is if you slice the planet in vertical half, like a half orange, then go away back and face the cut. 

Think with me, if you see ANY horizontal drop at your left of right horizon with the center a little bit up, as in a curvature, what happen when you turn your head to the right? that drop would be more pronounced?, what about on your back? that drop would be adding to be way below you?  No, the horizon is a straight flat circle all around you.  The next concentric circle further from the horizon would be below the horizon and you can't see it, the horizon image blocks such view. You can, of course, the the inner concentric circle before the horizon, and you will see it all around you, as another flat horizontal circle.

There is not curvature drop to measure while you are sitting on such sphere, the horizon is a flat horizontal circle all around you.  In open ocean, the horizon would be at the same distance from you, no matter the direction you look, this makes the horizon a circle around you, leveled, horizontal, no curvature.
I know all you mean.But you're wasting everyone's time.Because I've told you before why the horizon is not a circle.
To show you why I say this, let me explain to you again that it would be a faux folly for you to ignore my next words and bother me again.
The diagram you use here for example still says the horizon is a circle.
And why do I say it can't be a circle?Because a circle shows a closed overlapping line segment only when the point of view is exactly in the same plane as it is.
But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions.They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
« Last Edit: June 19, 2019, 06:12:22 PM by proponent »

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2019, 05:52:39 PM »
...But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions. They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
After consideration, the above reply is not appropriate, so I apologize.But there are other points I want to make to you, which I'm not sure about, but I'm sure someone can.

High seas horizon is everywhere you look, any direction, 360° around you, so it forms a nice horizontal flat circle.  I don't understand what you mean by "overlap"...   You say the "lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point, and in other directions".  Sorry, it is not lines-horizons, it is just "horizon".  As I already said before, a "line" connects A to B, the horizon connects nothing, it is a horizontal circle all around you, that specifies how far you can see due the curvature.  That distance is the same, the radius that forms the circle around you.   In a very calm ocean (almost impossible), suppose you can make a very long line of party balloons 11 inches (28cm) in diameter, and make a very big circle around you. If you are just floating eyes few inches from the water, to see the balloons they can not be more than 3km from you (radius of the circle).  If the ocean is really calm, you will see all the balloons whatever direction you look, so they form a nice horizontal circle around you.   If you make this circle of balloons with a radius of 5km (example), you will not see any balloons, they will be under the horizon circle.   The horizon will always be a flat horizontal circle all around you, no matter what.  That is the reality.

Re: I wanted to ask people about this
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2019, 06:23:45 PM »
...But in reality, sea lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point and in other directions. They don't overlap.
So you're saying things that don't fit reality.So you're wasting everyone's time!
After consideration, the above reply is not appropriate, so I apologize.But there are other points I want to make to you, which I'm not sure about, but I'm sure someone can.

High seas horizon is everywhere you look, any direction, 360° around you, so it forms a nice horizontal flat circle.  I don't understand what you mean by "overlap"...   You say the "lines-horizons appear both in front and behind the observation point, and in other directions".  Sorry, it is not lines-horizons, it is just "horizon".  As I already said before, a "line" connects A to B, the horizon connects nothing, it is a horizontal circle all around you, that specifies how far you can see due the curvature.  That distance is the same, the radius that forms the circle around you.   In a very calm ocean (almost impossible), suppose you can make a very long line of party balloons 11 inches (28cm) in diameter, and make a very big circle around you. If you are just floating eyes few inches from the water, to see the balloons they can not be more than 3km from you (radius of the circle).  If the ocean is really calm, you will see all the balloons whatever direction you look, so they form a nice horizontal circle around you.   If you make this circle of balloons with a radius of 5km (example), you will not see any balloons, they will be under the horizon circle.   The horizon will always be a flat horizontal circle all around you, no matter what.  That is the reality.
On reflection, I think you are not saying that the horizon is always in the same plane as the observation point, but that the horizon is due to the visibility caused by what you call the curvature of the earth and that the earth is a sphere.
So I deleted the previous words, which are even more inappropriate.
You seem to be saying that the horizon that one can see is made up of the edge of visibility at the height of the sphere.
I have explained to you separately that if the point of view is not in the same plane as the horizon, then if the horizon is a circle, it will become an ellipse with curvature at both ends, and I have nothing more to say about that.