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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #20 on: June 08, 2019, 01:32:28 AM »
Quote
No, I don't really care about personal testimonials that can be cherry picked and taken out of context. Personally, I'm more interested in a plausible FE model that can explain everyday phenomena like the apparent motions of the sun and moon.

I see. So anyone Mark Sargent interviews is fake or was taken out of context and needs no promotion or consideration. It seems that you are just trolling us then.

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #21 on: June 08, 2019, 01:49:09 AM »
Quote
No, I don't really care about personal testimonials that can be cherry picked and taken out of context. Personally, I'm more interested in a plausible FE model that can explain everyday phenomena like the apparent motions of the sun and moon.

I see. So anyone Mark Sargent interviews is fake or was taken out of context and needs no promotion or consideration. It seems that you are just trolling us then.
In the hierarchy of evidence, I would think that testable models would rank higher than personal testimonials.  After all, how many people have done interviews and given personal testimonials about being abducted by aliens or seeing big foot?
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 01:52:47 AM by markjo »
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #22 on: June 08, 2019, 02:11:22 AM »
Quote
No, I don't really care about personal testimonials that can be cherry picked and taken out of context. Personally, I'm more interested in a plausible FE model that can explain everyday phenomena like the apparent motions of the sun and moon.

I see. So anyone Mark Sargent interviews is fake or was taken out of context and needs no promotion or consideration. It seems that you are just trolling us then.
In the hierarchy of evidence, I would think that testable models would rank higher than personal testimonials.  After all, how many people have done interviews and given personal testimonials about being abducted by aliens or seeing big foot?

The Coriolis Effect being discarded for military weapons  and curvature discarded in surveying seems like a test of the models to me.

Anything that anyone claims is a "personal testimonial."
« Last Edit: June 08, 2019, 02:14:06 AM by Tom Bishop »

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #23 on: June 08, 2019, 02:25:06 AM »
The Coriolis Effect being discarded for military weapons seems like a test of the models to me.
That would depend greatly on the context.  Coriolis is most likely used in calculating the initial settings for the first shot and then manual adjustments would be applied for each successive round.

Anything that anyone claims is a "personal testimonial."
That's why I prefer testable models over claims and testimonials. 

I'm quite surprised that we're having this discussion.  Aren't you the one who regularly nit picks RE claims and testimonials until you dismisses them for lack of evidence?  Why aren't you subjecting Mark Sargent's interviewees to that same level of scrutiny?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #24 on: June 09, 2019, 10:57:36 AM »
I'm quite surprised that we're having this discussion.

Can't you see how fruitless is the current approach and, at the same time, how surprising it is, for REs, that it doesn't really work?
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

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Offline Tumeni

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #25 on: June 09, 2019, 12:35:47 PM »
The Coriolis Effect being discarded for military weapons  and curvature discarded in surveying seems like a test of the models to me.

Strikes me that depends on the size/range of the weapon, and the size of the surveying project. In both cases, it can be argued that they're too small for Coriolis or Earth circumference to be considered.

If you have guaranteed examples of real people being interviewed on camera in this regard, throw up a new thread for discussion and rebuttal.   
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Pete Svarrior "We are not here to directly persuade anyone ... You mistake our lack of interest in you for our absence."

Tom Bishop "We are extremely popular and the entire world wants to talk to us. We have better things to do with our lives than have in depth discussions with every single curious person. You are lucky to get one sentence dismissals from us"

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #26 on: June 09, 2019, 10:08:42 PM »
Garmin seem to be still manufacturing products that have built in Coriolis correction as a feature.

https://iknowwatches.com/garmin-foretrex-401-vs-601-vs-701/


Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #27 on: June 10, 2019, 12:26:26 PM »
This forum will be what its regulars make of it, for better or for worse.

Spot on. Any forum is only as good as its members.
But while you're going to get some fly-by "lol, erf is rund" people, most of us who have been here a while are not like that.
Yes. I think the earth is round. But I am interested in your ideas and why you believe them. I am interested in your attempts to make a more coherent model.
I'm disappointed I see so little of that on here.
Right now it's like the Wiki is your "manifesto" and you're like "Come and have a go if you think the earth is round enough".
You want growth and publicity but given how few people subscribe to a FE belief, most of the people who hear about FE and are interested enough to visit you will be RE believers.
I don't think this is a phase. Or, if it is, then it'll mean when it's past that interest in FE is dying out.

Quote
We do have that. But if we let the RE crowd in, we'll be back to square one. The alternative is to go full Eric Dubay and start banning people for disagreeing with us - which is completely contrary to our ideals.

There is a middle ground here, you allude to it yourself when you say "get the RE crowd to start being constructive"
You say there are places where you discuss FE ideas amongst yourself. Are those places on here? Are there sections that the great unwashed can't see?
If not then adding some would be an option. And the middle ground is people earn their place into those sections. And they don't do that by saying they believe the earth to be flat, they do that by showing they can debate sensibly in the sections they can see. If you genuinely don't want RE input into those discussions then that's your prerogative of course, but then it does become somewhat of an echo changer.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #28 on: June 10, 2019, 03:03:45 PM »
May be, first we need to know the color of the soil, before we try to discuss about it.
How many of the actual subscribers on this forum are FEs and REs?
Perhaps this should be stated on the profile, so you could have this statistic published.
Who knows? may be there are 7950 FErs here, and only 50 REs. By itself this would talks a lot.
On profile there is also Yahoo YAM information, no sense at all, why not change that for "RE or FE?"

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #29 on: June 10, 2019, 04:54:03 PM »
On profile there is also Yahoo YAM information, no sense at all
Talk to the people who made SMF and who added that (I'm guessing) 15 years ago. I agree that this could be purged, but it's so extremely low priority it's probably never happening.

I don't think this is a phase. Or, if it is, then it'll mean when it's past that interest in FE is dying out.
Meh, it is. We've been at it for more than a decade now. Every now and then we get a spike in media attention which brings the RE zealots over, and eventually they get bored. The FE movement at large grows regardless of this pattern. But yes, ultimately the hope here is that interest among a specific demographic dies out.

And the middle ground is people earn their place into those sections. And they don't do that by saying they believe the earth to be flat, they do that by showing they can debate sensibly in the sections they can see.
And who would the gatekeepers for that be? Bear in mind that (for example) you and I have extremely differing views on which contributors here are and are not sensible. If it were me choosing, most of the people who ask for more FE attention wouldn't get in - in effect, nothing would change. If you were choosing, then people like me wouldn't participate - nothing would change.

If you genuinely don't want RE input into those discussions then that's your prerogative of course, but then it does become somewhat of an echo changer.
I think you could be more generous with your assumptions about FE-on-FE discussions, at least the ones I alluded to participating in. The way you describe it, it sounds like you're imagining a room with a few people repeatedly saying "erf flat", "Ah, yes, quite!" to one another. Usually, it's much more heated than that, and the discussion focuses on differences, not similarities. I'm sure many echo chambers exist (well, I know they do, and I've been banned from quite a few, lol), but I agree that those are not useful or interesting.

Indeed, this is why I think the ball needs to be in RE's court here. We get an excessive amount of threads from regulars who just discuss among themselves about how round they think the Earth is, and how much they agree with one another.

Finally: while this forum has its purpose, and the outreach it generates is super useful, I think you're mistaking a relatively small forum ran by FE'ers for the entirety of the FE movement. If you don't like this particular section of the movement, you have plenty of options already available. You could go on Twitter and talk at some of the FE'ers there (many are needlessly hostile and not willing to discuss at all, but some of them can be civil and informative). It all has its upsides and downsides, but there is a diverse selection of means of communication available to you.
« Last Edit: June 10, 2019, 04:58:46 PM by Pete Svarrior »
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Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #30 on: June 10, 2019, 06:47:55 PM »
I would be ok with a section of the forum that Confirmed flat earthers could post and discuss in but is read-only to everyone else. I usually just sit back and read through threads anyway but if FE'ers feel they need a place they can discuss without non flat earthers giving them a hard time, I'd still like to be able to read it.

I don't know how one would confirm who a flat earther is though, sure enough people will pretend just so they can get access granted to read/write in that section of the forum.

I was a little surprised to find AR and CN when I finally joined after a decade of lurking, so maybe another option would be having a section hidden to anyone with a post count lower than a certain amount (there surely has to be an average post count of people who join to troll and get bored). Hell maybe there is a section like that and I haven't reached that post count yet :P
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?

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Offline markjo

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #31 on: June 10, 2019, 07:10:06 PM »
And the middle ground is people earn their place into those sections. And they don't do that by saying they believe the earth to be flat, they do that by showing they can debate sensibly in the sections they can see.
And who would the gatekeepers for that be? Bear in mind that (for example) you and I have extremely differing views on which contributors here are and are not sensible. If it were me choosing, most of the people who ask for more FE attention wouldn't get in - in effect, nothing would change. If you were choosing, then people like me wouldn't participate - nothing would change.
Check me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t vetting potential believers supposed to be one of the intended purposes of the (since defunct) Zetetic council?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #32 on: June 11, 2019, 12:04:10 AM »
I would be ok with a section of the forum that Confirmed flat earthers could post and discuss in but is read-only to everyone else. I usually just sit back and read through threads anyway but if FE'ers feel they need a place they can discuss without non flat earthers giving them a hard time, I'd still like to be able to read it.

The OP is about what we REs could do to engage interesting discussions with FEs.

Indeed, this is why I think the ball needs to be in RE's court here. We get an excessive amount of threads from regulars who just discuss among themselves about how round they think the Earth is, and how much they agree with one another.

I agree with that. Amusingly, this what REs think of FEs.

May be, first we need to know the color of the soil, before we try to discuss about it.
How many of the actual subscribers on this forum are FEs and REs?

That's maybe overly optimistic, and also I don't think this forum should care about people believing in shapes different from flatness.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2019, 12:07:38 AM »
But yes, ultimately the hope here is that interest among a specific demographic dies out.
I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to clarify that one. I can't help but wonder whether I fit into your demographic. If I'm not wanted, please tell me so.

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2019, 01:35:45 PM »
I don't think this is a phase. Or, if it is, then it'll mean when it's past that interest in FE is dying out.
Meh, it is. We've been at it for more than a decade now. Every now and then we get a spike in media attention which brings the RE zealots over, and eventually they get bored.

Fair enough. You've been at this longer than me so I'll accept you know the patterns better than me.
But it comes with the territory of trying to promote yourselves. And wouldn't you prefer if RE people came here and thought "Hmm, maybe these guys are on to something"?
Or don't you care?
If you do then you need a more coherent model.

Quote
And who would the gatekeepers for that be
It would have to be you I guess. You plural, you "the mods". You run this place.
One option is to have the section read only for Members but then allow only FE people in to post. Personally I'd find that frustrating, I signed up because I saw some of the things Tom in particular was posting, thought it was nonsense and wanted to chip in. Having a section where even as a member I couldn't participate would be annoying and would most likely lead to people creating spin off threads in the other sections.
The other option - one I would recommend - is you let selected RE people in. And yes, we have different views about who those people are but I don't see a huge risk here. If you let someone in who isn't behaving you can always kick them out again.
I'd say the ideal is these conversations happen on the existing boards but a FE "safe space" with RE access carefully limited may encourage more FE on FE debate on here, which is probably the intention of this place.

Quote
Indeed, this is why I think the ball needs to be in RE's court here. We get an excessive amount of threads from regulars who just discuss among themselves about how round they think the Earth is, and how much they agree with one another.

That's fair comment, although I don't agree it's entirely in our court. It would be good if there were more threads from FE people to discuss bones of contention within the community, it's not up to RE people to start those.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #35 on: June 12, 2019, 04:58:24 PM »
Check me if I’m wrong, but wasn’t vetting potential believers supposed to be one of the intended purposes of the (since defunct) Zetetic council?
Yeah, I'm gonna go with "wrong" on that one. Vetting people for a board we all agreed would not exist was not part of the ZC's duties.

I'd appreciate it if you'd be willing to clarify that one. I can't help but wonder whether I fit into your demographic. If I'm not wanted, please tell me so.
We're veering massively into the realms of personal judgement here, so please take everything I say here with a pinch of salt. My view is that anyone who comes here to talk about how they think the Earth is round is at least a little bit misguided. In a way (though I readily acknowledge this is a poor analogy), it feels like going to a football fans' forum to complain about one's dislike of football.

But, of course, this is a sweeping generalisation of different groups of people. There are some who come here to literally just repeatedly state that [they think] the Earth is round. Then you have people who one-sidedly argue for RE, without considering or acknowledging other possibilities. At the other extreme of the spectrum, you have RE'ers who actively help push debates in the right direction, direct newcomers to FE resources, and even help develop FET.

I don't know where exactly I'd like to draw the line if one existed. It's one of the reasons I personally wouldn't want to draw a line.

But it comes with the territory of trying to promote yourselves. And wouldn't you prefer if RE people came here and thought "Hmm, maybe these guys are on to something"?
Many do. You just happen not to be one of them. Every time I point out to you the unprecedented growth of the FE movement, you mistake it for starry-eyed pride, but it remains factual.

I get that you'd like to do things differently (and you're welcome to help us progress in the direction you'd like to see!), but ultimately your claims of our incoherence are difficult to follow, and your claims of our inefficiency are simply in conflict with publicly-available stats.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 05:02:08 PM by Pete Svarrior »
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #36 on: June 14, 2019, 11:19:03 AM »
I agree with that. Amusingly, this what REs think of FEs.
I fail to see:
A) How this can be amusing...

II) Any FE adherents glad handedly slapping each other on the back, saying, "...attaboy!"

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #37 on: June 15, 2019, 10:54:50 AM »
I agree with that. Amusingly, this what REs think of FEs.
I fail to see:
A) How this can be amusing...

II) Any FE adherents glad handedly slapping each other on the back, saying, "...attaboy!"

It's funny simply because REs lack the ability to adapt that FEs have. For any good argument REs come up with, FEs adapt and thrive. Then a new equilibrium is found and REs fail to improve.

The attempts of REs here are so fruitless that I wonder how they can stand their waste of time.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2019, 10:05:47 AM »
A second netiquette point would be to warn new REs of the futility of asking for non-contradictory explainations.
Quote from: Pete Svarrior
these waves of smug RE'ers are temporary. Every now and then they flood us for a year or two in response to some media attention, and eventually they peter out. In my view, it's a case of "if it ain't broke, don't fix it".

Offline ChrisTP

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Re: REs netiquette
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2019, 01:35:22 PM »
A second netiquette point would be to warn new REs of the futility of asking for non-contradictory explainations.
It's a fair thing to ask though? If your answers are contradicting your other answers then why would you even give one of the answers in the first place? either one or none are correct, don't contradict yourself if you wanna be taken seriously. For example you have tomB calling out and mocking people for saying mirages exist in a round earth and thus our round earth is an illusion then in his next breath saying earth can only be flat with illusions and mirages, Tom contradicts himself constantly and he's the one writing the FE wiki most of the time. Why shouldn't people ask for non-contradicting answers? There is zero point in giving a contradicting answer.
Tom is wrong most of the time. Hardly big news, don't you think?