South Pole as the FE center?
« on: June 05, 2019, 08:31:11 PM »
I wish we could investigate why it needs to be the North Pole on the center of the FE ?

What evidences FErs have for such statement? Who defined that and based on what reason or proven evidence?

Why not the Antarctica in the center, and the Arctic as the ice wall all around? 


Offline iamcpc

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2019, 01:44:55 PM »
I wish we could investigate why it needs to be the North Pole on the center of the FE ?

What evidences FErs have for such statement? Who defined that and based on what reason or proven evidence?

Why not the Antarctica in the center, and the Arctic as the ice wall all around? 

Most of the FE models don't have a south pole. The model that you show does not have a north pole. I personally believe that the earth has both a north pole and a south pole therefore i would have to reject both flat earth models with only one pole.

The map shown for the united nations has the north pole in the center. In addition the flat disk north pole center model is the basis for some of the more popular flat earth models.


I don't think that the north pole should be the center of a FE model.



This is my favorite FE model. If you zoom all the way out it has both a north pole and a south pole.

https://www.bing.com/maps
« Last Edit: June 06, 2019, 06:23:54 PM by iamcpc »

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Offline stack

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2019, 08:32:49 PM »
I agree, most FE models don't really recognize Antarctica other than as an icewall. It's probably more of a legacy thing and perhaps hubris. Antarctica was still sort of an exploratory endeavor all the way through the turn of the last century. In Rowbotham's time, little was known about it. And for an FE model Antarctica's harsh environment and less known quantities makes for a good conspiratorial barrier to ring the flat disk.

There is one person over on the other site that has a south pole centered model, but I don't know what his reasoning is.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Pete Svarrior

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2019, 05:44:04 AM »
I wish we could investigate why it needs to be the North Pole on the center of the FE ?
This logic is extremely backwards. You assume that the Earth is round, and that you can therefore arbitrarily redefine its projection onto a flat plane. There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.
Read the FAQ before asking your question - chances are we've already addressed it.
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Offline phyllo

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2019, 12:40:29 PM »
Quote from Pete Svarrior on June 6, 2019, 05:44:04 AM
Quote
This logic is extremely backwards. You assume that the Earth is round, and that you can therefore arbitrarily redefine its projection onto a flat plane. There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.

Pete, I agree that the world '...just happens to be', as you put it.  But since there is no agreed upon or coherent physical model of the Earth in FES, why couldn't the South Pole be at the centre.  All other models/maps have serious problems with them and while any one model may answer some questions about geography and the layout of the Earth, all FES models fail at some fundamental point.

Note:  I'm a longtime lurker bemused and fascinated by this site.  Apologies if I get some of the posting etiquette incorrect.

Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2019, 07:34:08 PM »
Quote
from: Pete Svarrior on Today at 05:44:04AM
Quote
from: spherical on June 05, 2019, 08:31:11 PM
I wish we could investigate why it needs to be the North Pole on the center of the FE ?
This logic is extremely backwards. You assume that the Earth is round, and that you can therefore arbitrarily redefine its projection onto a flat plane. There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.

For "my logic" to be backwards, you seems to imply that exists a "forward logic" in FE world, painted with "because it is".  The FE with North Pole in the center is just a suggestion from a time where South Pole was unknown and belayed by the northern to a dozen uneducated people, some native tribes and a bunch of penguins. Certainties need facts, evidence, not from old books, please.

Care to show some?   

As I was born close to the South Pole, being one of the "dozen non educated and visually impaired", it is logical for me to  ask about evidences demonstrating the North is in the center, but no, I wish for evidences showing why it is impossible for the South to be in the center.  All FE laws can be applied in both cases without exceptions.

Since I was kid I saw South pole rotating stars, constellations, etc, so for me and the penguins, it is much more forward logical to imagine (if much) the FE with the South in the center.   But I wish to learn reasons why it could not be, other than "because it is". 

I think I am luckier than most  people here, since for many years in my adult life, I saw both poles stars, lived on both hemispheres and personally strongly noticed the differences, didn't copy & paste from old books.

May be I will start to consider the map below as the new FE map to calculate distances, areas, etc.


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Offline Tim Alphabeaver

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #6 on: June 07, 2019, 11:03:44 PM »
I wish we could investigate why it needs to be the North Pole on the center of the FE ?
This logic is extremely backwards. You assume that the Earth is round, and that you can therefore arbitrarily redefine its projection onto a flat plane. There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.
The "need" comes from the fact that almost every single FE map has the North pole at the centre. I don't see how this can be backwards logic. I interpreted OP's post as asking why the North pole should be in the middle and not the South pole in your "standard" FE map.
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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #7 on: June 10, 2019, 11:02:27 AM »
There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.
Sort of. But this is a weakness with your model.
You can't explain why the earth is flat, in your model it just happens to be so.
But mainstream science can explain the shape of the earth.
The earth does have to be a sphere because of gravity.
This is why all objects above a certain mass are spherical.
And science can explain the oblateness too, when a non-rigid body (as the earth was when it was forming) is spinning the centripetal force will make it bulge around the middle.

The original question should be not why does the north pole "need" to be in the centre - as you say, it doesn't need to be, it just happens to be. Like the UK doesn't need to be separated from Europe by water, it just happens to be (although hasn't always been). A better question is why do you believe that the north pole is at the centre of the flat earth. And I'd suggest the answer to that is because Rowbotham lived in the northern hemisphere. From that vantage point one can observe Polaris stationary (more or less) above the North Pole and other stars rotating around that point. So it makes sense, if you're going to create a FE model, to make that the centre. But if you're in the Southern hemisphere you'd see stars rotating in the opposite direction around some southern point.

It's speculation, but not baseless, to suppose that had Rowbotham lived in Australia he might well have made a FE model with a southern hub in the middle. The problems your model has with distances and observations of sun movement in the southern hemisphere would then exist in the northern hemisphere. This would be a bigger problem given that 68% of the land mass and 90% of the population is in the northern hemisphere, but that doesn't mean the problem doesn't exist with the North Pole being at the centre.

The fundamental problem is the same one cartographers have. How does one represent a globe earth on a flat plane? And the answer is there is no way perfect way of doing so. The projection most often used makes Greenland the same size as Africa, which it isn't. You can fix that with other projections but you're trying to fit a too big carpet into a room. You can flatten down (pun not originally intended, but I'll take it) one corner of it, but another corner is going to pop up somewhere.
If you are making your claim without evidence then we can discard it without evidence.

Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #8 on: June 10, 2019, 02:55:31 PM »
I think one extra question tied to this thread should be:

How can you prove by magnetic measurements, that it is the north magnetic pole in the FE center? 

If you travel around Antarctica continent, even partially, you will see the compass needle pointing to a south magnetic center.

The problem is that so many travels and trips were done on the Arctic, that it is impossible to say it is not a known place, packed together, navigation maps were done.  It is impossible to imagine Arctic to be spread around the flat earth (as the ice wall), this is why it was elected to be the center, and not the south pole, since it was not documented, mapped or known 150 years ago.  At that time for FEs, it was a logic choice.  Today such logic doesn't work anymore.  This is why FEs still use very old literature to support their claims, there is an almost logical certainty on those old texts.  You can find the same certainty on the old texts, even supported by the church's and everybody else ignorance, about the Earth being the center of the universe, even with strange and crocked formulas explaining the movement of planets.  Old logic certainties where also used to burn witches.

If you try to justify FE using modern and scientific instruments, you will fail.

Offline reer

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Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2019, 10:21:48 AM »
There is no "need" for the world to be the way it is - it just happens to be.

The original question should be not why does the north pole "need" to be in the centre - as you say, it doesn't need to be, it just happens to be. Like the UK doesn't need to be separated from Europe by water, it just happens to be (although hasn't always been). A better question is why do you believe that the north pole is at the centre of the flat earth. And I'd suggest the answer to that is because Rowbotham lived in the northern hemisphere. From that vantage point one can observe Polaris stationary (more or less) above the North Pole and other stars rotating around that point. So it makes sense, if you're going to create a FE model, to make that the centre. But if you're in the Southern hemisphere you'd see stars rotating in the opposite direction around some southern point.

In fact, that brings up a question I would like FE to explain:

Why do we see stars rotating counter-clockwise around Polaris in the northern hemisphere, but clockwise around a point near the Southern Cross in the southern hemisphere? I have lived in Europe and now live in Australia, and I have seen the stars do that. Surely, the stars can only rotate around 1 point, not 2?

Any FE explanations?

Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2019, 12:23:45 AM »
Hey "around the world".  I have observed the planets, sun, and moon rotate clockwise from left to right each day. I live in NY.   Assuming the South Pole is the center of the flat earth, which I think it is, I  presume that should be the case everywhere on earth.   I also think the sun is centered over the arctic but the earth tilts towards it with the seasons to give the illusion of an off centered sun running over the equator and + - 23.5 longitudes.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2019, 02:15:53 AM by Tron1002 »

Re: South Pole as the FE center?
« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2019, 02:26:14 AM »
More simply put, the earth rotates clockwise and so do the planets but at a much slower pace.    So to answer your question, if your in the northern hemisphere looking up, and facing south, you will observe the stars moving counter clockwise bc of retrograde motion.  And if your in the southern hemisphere, facing up and Looking south, you will have the sun and planets facing your Back but observing the same results.

What i think your problem is, is that your standing in the Southern Hemisphere looking up and facing NORtH.  Thats why your seeing the stars go counter clockwise from right to left.