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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #20 on: April 19, 2019, 06:58:46 PM »
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I think the likes of Lockeed Martin & Boeing (and JPL-Though it's sort of a hybrid CalTech managed, gov't funded entity) would disagree with your off-the-cuff assertion/opinion. Both are steeped in design. Not just providing bodies to crunch numbers and weld pieces together in clean rooms.

LM is right now pitching NASA on a moon launch for 2024. Lots of elements to the puzzle involving plenty.

Do you really believe that the government would let a private company build and have plans for bombers and other weapons without any government oversight or management, on their own facilities?

"Here you go, here is last year's design. Make some improvements and have at it!"

Is that how it works?

Not sure where you got all that from. How do you believe the F-35 was designed and built? Of course there is oversight. No one ever said otherwise. But you make it seem like some people in the DoD design/architect the entirety of the plans for a weapons system/NASA system, then cut it all up into tiny pieces and carefully hand just a sliver to a drone contractor locked in a cubicle to simply execute. You obviously have never been involved in the development process of anything.

Anyone who has ever worked for a government contractor knows that they are working for the government and its managers, not the contracting agency.

Sure. I'm not seeing an issue here. Same in the private sector. You've obviously never done any contract work either.

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"If NASA wants to use Lockheed's architecture, the space agency will likely need to start funding it now."

https://www.axios.com/lockheed-martin-take-nasa-to-moon-57ce90f8-f9d3-427e-9b1d-eef808b4e350.html

axios.com probably doesn't know that the government owns all property rights to the technologies that it funds. Who could believe that NASA is giving Lockeed and SpaceX billions of dollars to let them own it? Something that can be double-purposed as an ICBM, no less?

Sure axios does. Everyone knows that. Same in the private sector. There are also things called contracts that lay out the terms of rights and relationships, IP and such. None of this is a mystery let alone even remotely conspiratorial. It's called business.
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #21 on: April 19, 2019, 07:02:58 PM »
Government contractors actually do little more than send their workers to work on government bases under the direction of government managers and directors, with government clearances. They are more like temp agencies than anything, used for liability reasons and because they are easy to fire. Anyone who has ever worked for the DoD can attest. The only involvement the workers get from their company is a paycheck and benefits. When the contract changes to another company the workers don't even change cubicles.
Very nice, but SpaceX is not that sort of government contractor.  The government is a SpaceX customer.  The Falcon 9, Falcon Heavy, Dragon cargo and crew capsules are all designed, fabricated launched by SpaceX employees.  The government is simply contracting for SpaceX launch services.

Think about it. The government wouldn't hand out bomber and warship plans to any company to build on their own...
The government doesn't design bombers or warships.  The government tells contractors that they want a bomber or a warship with certain capabilities.  The contractor will then submit their design to meet needs and build it if they get the contract.

... in this case the technologies are what are essentially ICBM plans. It's a controlled environment and the technologies are likely considered on the level of weapons of mass destruction or at least of a very sensitive nature.
Ummm...  Tom.  Have you heard that over the last 10 years or so, the space launch industry has exploded with dozens of new companies all over the world designing and building their own rockets to launch small to medium sized satellites?  Established defense contractors are no longer the only ones building "what are essentially ICBMs".
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #22 on: April 19, 2019, 07:09:47 PM »
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Ummm...  Tom.  Have you heard that over the last 10 years or so, the space launch industry has exploded with dozens of new companies all over the world designing and building their own rockets to launch small to medium sized satellites?  Established defense contractors are no longer the only ones building "what are essentially ICBMs".

Can you link us to these companies? I am sure that you know that it is illegal to launch rockets above a certain class into civilian or military airspace without government approval. This is not a private venture. There are no "orbital rockets plans for sale" websites, or any possible place to buy that sort of thing.

If you are of the belief the government would give out rocket technologies to purely private companies to do with as they wish, you would be in error.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 07:21:50 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline markjo

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #23 on: April 19, 2019, 07:32:30 PM »
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Ummm...  Tom.  Have you heard that over the last 10 years or so, the space launch industry has exploded with dozens of new companies all over the world designing and building their own rockets to launch small to medium sized satellites?  Established defense contractors are no longer the only ones building "what are essentially ICBMs".

Can you link us to these companies?
Here you go:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_private_spaceflight_companies#Launch_vehicle_makers


I am sure that you know that it is illegal to launch rockets above a certain class into civilian or military airspace without government approval. This is not a private venture.
Did you know that it's illegal to drive a motor vehicle with out a government approved driver's license?  Needing government approval does not make something more or less of a private venture.

There are no "orbital rockets plans for sale" websites, or any possible place to buy that sort of thing.
No, but there are orbital rocket launch services for sale web sites.  Here's one of them:
https://vector-launch.com/launch-with-vector/

If you are of the belief the government would give out rocket technologies to purely private companies to do with as they wish, you are in error.
Sorry Tom, but it looks like the cat is already out of the bag.
https://arc.aiaa.org/doi/book/10.2514/4.866197
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Modern Engineering for Design of Liquid-Propellant Rocket Engines

David H. Huang; Dieter K. Huzel
eISBN: 978-1-60086-619-7
print ISBN: 978-1-56347-013-4
https://doi.org/10.2514/4.866197
Dates/copyright year: January 1, 1992
1992 Copyright © 1992 by the American Institute of Aeronautics and Astronautics, Inc.
Download the Full PDF
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #24 on: April 19, 2019, 08:36:27 PM »
Driving is not a public freedom, markjo. Not everyone can drive large trucks and heavy machinery. Cars are dangerous to yourself and others, and your license to drive will be taken away if the government chooses.

Your example shows that the government does say what happens in regards to rockets and space, and can impose as many restrictions and requirements as they wish.

Your example of a book with rocketry principles (which you apparently can't even buy unless you are a member of that organization or an affiliated institution) is hardly comparable to rocket technology and the substantial research and engineering design and testing needed to get to orbit. You may as well tell us that anyone can build a nuclear weapon because there are some reaction equations on Wikipedia.
« Last Edit: April 19, 2019, 09:54:01 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

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Offline markjo

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #25 on: April 19, 2019, 09:02:48 PM »
Driving is not a public freedom, markjo. Not everyone can drive large trucks and heavy machinery. Cars are dangerous to yourself and others, and you license to drive will be taken away if the government chooses.

Your example shows that the government does say what happens in regards to rockets and space, and can impose as many restrictions and requirements as they wish.
Almost every industry is subject to some sort of government regulation.  That doesn't preclude the idea of private industry.

Your example of a book with rocketry principles (which you apparently can't even buy unless you are a member of that organization) is hardly comparable to rocket technology and the substantial research and engineering design and testing needed to get to orbit.
First of all, you can buy that book on Amazon.  Secondly, it isn't hard to find other books on rocket design, navigation, etc.  Gaining the required knowledge is relatively easy.  Actually fabricating and building the rocket is the hard part (although 3D printing technology is making that a lot easier too).

You may as well tell us that anyone can build a nuclear weapon because there are some reaction equations on Wikipedia.
As with rockets, learning how to build a nuclear bomb is relatively easy.  Getting access to the appropriate fissile materials and actually building the bomb is the hard part.

BTW, one hardly needs rockets or nuclear bombs to create an improvised or otherwise low tech WMD.  We've already seen how much of a bang fertilizer and diesel fuel in the back of a truck can make and none of those components are particularly hard to get a hold of.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #26 on: April 19, 2019, 10:22:49 PM »
Driving is not a public freedom, markjo. Not everyone can drive large trucks and heavy machinery. Cars are dangerous to yourself and others, and your license to drive will be taken away if the government chooses.

Your example shows that the government does say what happens in regards to rockets and space, and can impose as many restrictions and requirements as they wish.

Your example of a book with rocketry principles (which you apparently can't even buy unless you are a member of that organization or an affiliated institution) is hardly comparable to rocket technology and the substantial research and engineering design and testing needed to get to orbit. You may as well tell us that anyone can build a nuclear weapon because there are some reaction equations on Wikipedia.

What exactly is your argument here? That governments can impose as many restrictions and requirements as they wish on private industry? Gov't agencies like the FAA, the FCC, the EPA, the FDA, the ATF...? Sure they can. How is that relevant?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline Tom Bishop

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #27 on: April 20, 2019, 03:29:21 PM »
Almost every industry is subject to some sort of government regulation.  That doesn't preclude the idea of private industry.

Regulation means that the government controls it. The government controls space. Your idea of private space industry is just that, an idea. An idea that the government controls.

Hence your argument loops back around to an appeal to the integrity of the government. When you say "private space companies" we must add "who are instructed by government" to that sentence.
« Last Edit: April 20, 2019, 03:48:34 PM by Tom Bishop »
"The biggest problem in astronomy is that when we look at something in the sky, we don’t know how far away it is" — Pauline Barmby, Ph.D., Professor of Astronomy

Re: Elon musk
« Reply #28 on: April 20, 2019, 05:22:03 PM »
Almost every industry is subject to some sort of government regulation.  That doesn't preclude the idea of private industry.

Regulation means that the government controls it. The government controls space. Your idea of private space industry is just that, an idea. An idea that the government controls.

Hence your argument loops back around to an appeal to the integrity of the government. When you say "private space companies" we must add "who are instructed by government" to that sentence.
Which government?

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #29 on: April 20, 2019, 08:41:58 PM »
Almost every industry is subject to some sort of government regulation.  That doesn't preclude the idea of private industry.

Regulation means that the government controls it. The government controls space. Your idea of private space industry is just that, an idea. An idea that the government controls.

Hence your argument loops back around to an appeal to the integrity of the government. When you say "private space companies" we must add "who are instructed by government" to that sentence.

Regulation means that the government controls it. The government controls space sky. Your idea of private space airline industry is just that, an idea. An idea that the government controls.
Hence your argument loops back around to an appeal to the integrity of the government. When you say "private space airline companies" we must add "who are instructed by government" to that sentence.

Again, whatever your point is is neither here nor there. So what?
Not much is known about the celestial bodies and their distances.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2019, 02:30:34 AM »
Almost every industry is subject to some sort of government regulation.  That doesn't preclude the idea of private industry.

Regulation means that the government controls it.
But to what degree does the government control SpaceX?
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.

Offline Cbr954

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2019, 05:44:03 AM »
Surely once space x starts launching regular old civilians this entire concept will be finished and the flat earth will finally be put to rest.
I've been hearing we are very close to civilian space travel for nearly my entire life. And yet, it never materializes. Just because knockoff Tony Stark is the latest conman to promise it doesn't make me any more convinced.

It’s happened. Just cost too much. People have paid millions. It absolutely will happen. I’m not saying u can buy a gift card from Walmart to go to space, but for a lot of people it will become affordable to at the least do once. At that time I’ll start a crowdfunding for any flat earther to take the ride and see once and for all that the earth is not flat.

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Offline markjo

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Re: Elon musk
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2019, 04:08:42 PM »
Many flat earth believers say that only astronauts go to space and so no civilian eyes ever get to see the truth. Surely once space x starts launching regular old civilians this entire concept will be finished and the flat earth will finally be put to rest.
Actually, SpaceX is the wrong company to be betting on.  Virgin Galactic and Blue Origin are much closer to sending paying customers to space (depending on where you consider space to begin).  Virgin Galactic has already sent several people above 50 miles (a somewhat controversial definition for space) on test flights and hopes to start launching paying customers in a few months.  Blue Origin has a number of successful unmanned test flights above 100km (the more traditional definition of space) and expects manned flights by the end of the year.  SpaceX is still in the development stage of its Starliner/Super Heavy, so I wouldn't hold my breath on that.  Whether or not they sell civilian Crew Dragon flights is currently unknown.
Abandon hope all ye who press enter here.

Science is what happens when preconception meets verification.

If you can't demonstrate it, then you shouldn't believe it.